soybean oil concerns

[Reg]

Is anybody concerned about use of non organically grown soybean oil? As far as I know pretty much all soybeans are genetically engineered to withstand a spray of roundup. Which means it is sprayed with roundup. Buying orgranic obviously a lot spendier then buying regular oil. Just wondering what does everybody think?

Cottonseed oil is of a question to me too. I don't know much about it, but basically cotton is grown to collect the fibers (not for food), oil is just a byproduct of the industry, so it is probably sprayed with pretty potent stuff too.

[Rob K]

My personal opinion is that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. First off, insecticides and pesticides are applied weeks before harvesting, so most (if not virtually all) of it has been washed away prior to harvesting.

Then the beans go through processing to extract the oil. Then you are reacting it with lye. By this time you are down to parts per million at most. Plus you are talking about soap, which is a wash-off product, so to any possible exposure is what, a minute? For maybe a couple of molecules?

On the other hand, there are a lot of nervous ninnies out there that believe any and all chemicals are B-A-D. If this is your target market, then making a big deal of this would be a sound marketing technique.

My other thought is that soybean oil doesn't make that great of a soap anyway...

[Reg]

I am new to soapmaking (only made 3 batches), so I keep thinking up new questions every minute. I have seen a lot of soap recipes in the books that had soybean oil as an ingredient, so it seemed like a widely used oil. But if it doesn't make that great of a soap, I won't even bother with it at all.

[LuminousBoutique]

This is just my opinion but using organic oils in soap is like using silicone versus saline in implants... either way, there is a (in this case, WAS a..) foreign body in the soap. You use LYE to make it into soap, lye is in no way "organic" or "natural".

There are natural soybean growers out there.. and there is organic soybean oil readily available, the first search I came up with was 10.44 for 7lbs. It is worth looking into I suppose if you plan on using soybean and have customers who are concerned but I use some in every bar (unless someone has allergies)... I love it in my soaps... and have never once had a customer even ask. hardly any even look at the ingredients, in my experience.

I've never used cottonseed so no help there.

Edited July 16, 2010 by LuminousBoutique

[Rob K]

Sorry, I was reading soybean but thinking canola... Soybean oil or vegetable shortening is very commonly used, as it is an inexpensive oil that is available just about everywhere. Just make sure to combine it with some other, harder oils, and try to keep the soy under 40% or so.

If you go the shortening route (Crisco), make sure you check the ingredients as the Crisco ingredients vary from place to place...

[Reg]

Sorry, I was reading soybean but thinking canola... Soybean oil or vegetable shortening is very commonly used, as it is an inexpensive oil that is available just about everywhere. Just make sure to combine it with some other, harder oils, and try to keep the soy under 40% or so.

If you go the shortening route (Crisco), make sure you check the ingredients as the Crisco ingredients vary from place to place...

What would be the favorable ingredients in shortening? The can I have lists these: soybean oil, fully hydrogenated palm oil, partially hydrogenated palm and soybean oils, mono and diglycerides, TBHQ and citric asid. I haven't made soap from it yet (not sure how to calculate lye for it either since it's both soybean and palm oils). I have seen one soap calc that had "old crisco" and "new crisco", but I don't know if what I have is considered old or new.

[Rob K]

It's not so much favorable or unfavorable, but more about knowing what the oils and percentages are so you can calculate the SAP value correctly.

[Reg]

shortening doesn't exactly specify how much of each oil is used, so what would be be best way to calculate lye?

[topofmurrayhill]

But if it doesn't make that great of a soap, I won't even bother with it at all.

You hit the nail on the head. Soybean is a linoleic oil and doesn't make good soap. You should stick with soaping oils such as olive, palm/lard/tallow, coconut/pko, and oils with fatty acid profiles similar to those.

shortening doesn't exactly specify how much of each oil is used, so what would be be best way to calculate lye?

Unless you get more information from the manufacturer, there isn't really a way. You could just guestimate a SAP value of 0.138 though. It probably won't be that far off unless it's an unusual product. There's some uncertainty with every oil, which is why you use a lye discount.

In the case of Crisco, we have the info for the latest no-trans-fat version. In fact, the numbers from the manufacturer match up perfectly to a blend of 75% soybean oil and 25% palm oil. Predictably, too much polyunsaturated fat and not so good for soaping.

Really, why even worry about how to use a product that's just a blend of oils? You can blend your own oils and get any result you want with no guessing or uncertainty.

[Reg]

You hit the nail on the head. Soybean is a linoleic oil and doesn't make good soap. You should stick with soaping oils such as olive, palm/lard/tallow, coconut/pko, and oils with fatty acid profiles similar to those.

Unless you get more information from the manufacturer, there isn't really a way. You could just guestimate a SAP value of 0.138 though. It probably won't be that far off unless it's an unusual product. There's some uncertainty with every oil, which is why you use a lye discount.

In the case of Crisco, we have the info for the latest no-trans-fat version. In fact, the numbers from the manufacturer match up perfectly to a blend of 75% soybean oil and 25% palm oil. Predictably, too much polyunsaturated fat and not so good for soaping.

Really, why even worry about how to use a product that's just a blend of oils? You can blend your own oils and get any result you want with no guessing or uncertainty.

Does the fact that some oils are hydrogenated in the shortening, make any difference in the soap versus regular oils?

Also I have no understanding of properties of oils, like "linoleic oil doesn't make good soap", is there info somewhere on here, or some website that explain that kind of stuff? I only have 4 batches of soap under my belt, and, my cp soap is not even cured yet.

[topofmurrayhill]

Does the fact that some oils are hydrogenated in the shortening, make any difference in the soap versus regular oils?

Hydrogenated oil makes different soap than the same oil unhydrogenated. However, knowing that there's hydrogenated oil in a shortening (there usually is at least some) doesn't help us that much. Knowing whether the shortening is good for soaping and what kind of soap it'll make requires knowing the fatty acid composition. We know that for regular oils but not always for shortening products.

Also I have no understanding of properties of oils, like "linoleic oil doesn't make good soap", is there info somewhere on here, or some website that explain that kind of stuff? I only have 4 batches of soap under my belt, and, my cp soap is not even cured yet.

Initially there's not that much to know. Olive oil makes soft soap. Palm oil (or lard or tallow) makes hard soap. Coconut (or palm kernel oil) makes bubbly soap. Balance those three categories and you know more or less what you'll get.

Besides butters, the only other oils you should use need to be equivalent to the ones I mentioned. I posted a little more about that in

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92582.

Individual oils don't have any unique properties that are significant for soap. Different fatty acids have certain properties when they're saponified, but it doesn't matter what oil they come from. All the traditional soaping oils have a useful fatty acid composition. What you should avoid is very polyunsaturated oils. You can identify those from the label at the store, or check SoapCalc. When you click on an oil in the list, what you want to see is low numbers in those bottom two boxes labeled "linoleic" and "linolenic."

[Reg]

Hydrogenated oil makes different soap than the same oil unhydrogenated. However, knowing that there's hydrogenated oil in a shortening (there usually is at least some) doesn't help us that much. Knowing whether the shortening is good for soaping and what kind of soap it'll make requires knowing the fatty acid composition. We know that for regular oils but not always for shortening products.

Initially there's not that much to know. Olive oil makes soft soap. Palm oil (or lard or tallow) makes hard soap. Coconut (or palm kernel oil) makes bubbly soap. Balance those three categories and you know more or less what you'll get.

Besides butters, the only other oils you should use need to be equivalent to the ones I mentioned. I posted a little more about that in

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92582.

Individual oils don't have any unique properties that are significant for soap. Different fatty acids have certain properties when they're saponified, but it doesn't matter what oil they come from. All the traditional soaping oils have a useful fatty acid composition. What you should avoid is very polyunsaturated oils. You can identify those from the label at the store, or check SoapCalc. When you click on an oil in the list, what you want to see is low numbers in those bottom two boxes labeled "linoleic" and "linolenic."

I'll have to try your 40-PO/30-OO/30-CO soap. I just made a batch with these oils a couple of days ago, but in a different proportion 20-PO/50-OO/30-CO (I think I got the recipe from millersoap), waiting for it to cure.

Now, you say olive oil makes soft soap. I did make one batch of CP out of 100% olive oil (extra virgin, if it matters), it's been a little over 3 weeks, and this soap is hard as rock! Am I missing something?

[topofmurrayhill]

Now, you say olive oil makes soft soap. I did make one batch of CP out of 100% olive oil (extra virgin, if it matters), it's been a little over 3 weeks, and this soap is hard as rock! Am I missing something?

I'm using the term hardness kind of loosely. Most properly saponified soaps will get pretty hard once they dry (using less water when you make them will speed that up). However, a straight olive oil soap will soften up faster once you start to use it and won't last as long as a "harder" recipe.

Incidentally, high-oleic soaps also get pretty slimy when wet. You can make mixed-oil soaps and harder recipes that are also gentle but have better overall properties.

[Reg]

I'm using the term hardness kind of loosely. Most properly saponified soaps will get pretty hard once they dry (using less water when you make them will speed that up). However, a straight olive oil soap will soften up faster once you start to use it and won't last as long as a "harder" recipe.

Incidentally, high-oleic soaps also get pretty slimy when wet. You can make mixed-oil soaps and harder recipes that are also gentle but have better overall properties.

I suppose it's been long enough since I made that OO soap, I should try using it, so I could see and understand all this stuff myself. Tomorrow will be exactly one month since I made my first soap, I think I am going to lock myself in the bathroom and try out my soaps (others are HP and CPOP, so I can try them all).