MissMori

I'm curious, violations of what? Patents are for inventions, not ideas. Someone could formulate another gel and not violate Penreco's patent. I would be interested to know how they dissected the candle, specifically whether a chemical analysis would necessarily tell them how the gel was made. Would it be like trying to reverse engineer a bar of soap, including the fragrance used, by doing a chemical analysis of the soap itself?

So I had to look at the site to see what a $700 candle looks like. My guess is that only someone who REALLY likes candles would even consider purchasing one... and that would be after several drinks.

I test by doing a 4oz bar of my base recipe. It's going sllllloooooowwwwwwllly. I made a soap yesterday at my mother-in-law's request. And of course, it's the ugliest baby poop brown color. Strangest thing happened, which has never happened before, the soap broke, actually broke in the mold. Two of the corners broke off. This was before trying to unmold the soap.

I'm all about testing new fragrances this week... only 87 to go.

I've been making soap for over 10 years and I'm just now going into business. But I will say, the $60 I spent on the hands-on soap making class was the best $60 I ever spent --- when it came to soap making. In 10 years, I've spent close to $15,000 on supplies, just for soap, nothing else. I've made a lot of soap. More than I can possibly use in a life time. A lot of soap'ish stuff was thrown away in the process of learning. It's human nature to want the easy route... the get rich quick without much effort route. Life doesn't work that way. Talk to anyone who is rich and they will tell you it was a lot of hard work. Unless you are Paris Hilton. I've known a lot of soap makers through the forums and have known many that started making soap for the money. Ha! Most quit when they realized it takes money to make money. Others figured out it's hard work to lug around 50 pound boxes of oils and chipping away at PKO in the middle of winter takes a certain amount of strength. Not to mention lifting and pouring a 30 pound pot of soap. I do it because I love it. If I can make some money at it, well, that's a bonus. The hard day will be when my boys are in school full time and, if my business isn't making enough $$$, I will have to get a "real" job. Because, as we all know, working from home isn't a real job. /sarc :rolleyes2

Does anyone use these? I like the wood lids... http://www.bormioliroccousa.com/usa/products/search/result.jsp?pagina=5&categoria=10&serie=&capacita=&colore=&vetro=&plus=

pko, palm, lard, tallow.... I would go w/ pko.

Looking at the ingredients, it shouldn't be a problem. I'd experiment by melting a bit and adding to warm oils. Stick blend to get it all mixed in. Add lye and carry on as usual.

We are neighbors. I'm in Carlsbad. Where are you getting your lye? I use ProChem in San Diego and pay $34.50 for 50 lbs./.69 per pound.

Yeah, you and me both, god only knows what they think of ME and my disfunctions. :rolleyes2 Shipping may have to do with the size of the supplier (or not,) large businesses are able to negotiate better shipping rates than small businesses. Or, the supplier is profiting on the shipping charges. It's not unheard of for a merchant to add a little profit for themselves to shipping charges. I read today, maybe even here or a link from here, that it is quasi illegal for shipping to outrageously differ from actual costs of shipping itself and supplies. Also, something that irks me. In California, s&h carries a sales tax when bundled as s&h and shipped in state, but not if the merchant only charges for shipping. Who wants to pay an additional 8.75% of already outrageous shipping charges?

They either didn't plan well and therefore didn't have cured soap to sell OR they think that they have to make the sale RIGHT NOW, especially if it is to a wholesale customer. When I first started making soap and coming to the forums, there were soap makers that heavily discounted water and did a 2% to 3% lye discount, hoping to get a rock hard bar instantly without using a high percentage of coconut, pko or waxes. I also recall a particular soap maker that would make, unmold, cut and ship her soap on the same day. Still WET! Her thoughts were that by the time the soap arrived a week later, it would be "dry enough." I don't even want to imagine how harsh her soap was. The thought of a 2% or 3% lye discount makes my skin itch. I think that this is where coconut oil got a bad rap and had many soap "experts" claiming over and over again that coconut is drying or irritates the skin.

My castille with a 50/50 lye solution. Trace: It traced much faster than a lye solution with more water. Hardness: At 6 hours after pouring it was about as hard as room temperature butter, perhaps a bit harder. At 30 hours it is actually pretty hard. I'd say about as hard as refrigerated butter. BUT it is not hard enough to use. I'm going to cut at 48 hours.

I can only report to you my experience, no one else's... here goes... For a harder bar right out of the mold you can do any of the following following: 1. Gel your soaps. This does require allowing the soap to go through the gel process and cool, at least I allow mine to cool; 2. Use a more concentrated lye solution (50% water/50% NaOH); 3. Use a bit of salt in the water before adding lye (1/2 to 1 tsp ppo.); 4. Use a very high percentage of hard fats (coconut, pko, beeswax, steric acid, etc.) Best results for me is to do 1&2 together. Great big ol' caveat ***IT DEPENDS ON THE OILS YOU USE***. I recently did this with by basic soap and had a rock hard bar after 4 hours. (I soap at about 95F to 100F.) It was almost too hard to cut with my Tank after 18 hours. Would I do this again? Yes, but only with fo's I know will not accelerate. Now, about cure. I am still letting all my rock hard, almost too hard to cut soap cure for a minimum of 4 weeks. I do so, because I think my soap is less harsh after 4 weeks. Is it absolutely necessary, no. Would I sell it, no. Later today I need to test a new silicon mold I made. I'm going to do a true castille with a 50/50 lye solution. In the past for my castille, I've always use a ratio of 38% NaOH to 62% water for my lye solution. I'll report back.

I do it all the time, especially when only dregs are left in the bottom of the fo bottles. I weigh each of the dregs I'm using so that if the mix is a keeper, I'll know how to mix it again.

What Scented and TallTayl said. Some soap maker's discount thinking they will get harder soap faster, like instantly fast. This doesn't necessarily work. Curing is about more than the soap being hard and long lasting. Soaps that are allowed to cure for longer periods of time seems to be less harsh. If you do decide to sell your soap before the standard cure time for you, you may be shooting yourself in the foot if your customer doesn't like it.

Thank you Stella, you cleared up a few things for me. I'm off to read the tempering thread. Thanks again!

I got info on coconut wax.. it is a blend. The all veggie coconut blend is coconut, soy and beeswax. The non-veggie is a blend of coconut and paraffin. It comes in a bead/blob form and slabs. They are out of stock on both, but will get more in a few weeks. When they do, I'm going to get a sample to at least see what it is about. To do a co-op, I would need to purchase 1750 pounds. When I figure out how I'm going to pick it up or delivery charges, I will post the co-op. I hope everyone is still interested.

Most fragrances are different after soaped compared to straight out of the bottle. Yes, they are coming into contact with lye and going through a saponification process, but part of the process is increased temperature if the soap is allowed to gel (I do.) I have soaps that are several years old that are fragrant, but I think this has more to do with the way the fragrance oil was originally formulated. Still fragrant, but not the same as out of the bottle. I'm skeptical that temperature at mix and pour doesn't effect fragrances used in candles. Being new to candle making and rather stubborn, this may be something I have to learn from experience. Question: If you pour at a high temperature and slow cooling to reduce shrinkage, will you get a sink hold in your candle when burning?

Maybe I'm confused or causing confusion. I've always been lead to believe that fragrance oils are volatile substances, meaning they have a tendency to vaporize. This is why over time candles (and soap) will lose their fragrance. The fo doesn't want to stay trapped in the wax, instead, it wants to vaporize (turn to fumes) and escape. I'm thinking that temperature can either slow down or speed up the process. Would you store your candles at 120 degrees? Where do you store and how is it recommended you store your fragrance oils? So, if fragrance oils are volatile and exposing them to heat causes volatility to speed up, then wouldn't adding fragrance to your wax at a high temperature burn off some of the fragrance? Please remember that I'm coming at this from a soap making point of view. Lye is very caustic and does effect fragrances in a much different way than wax. However, one of the tricks we soap makers use to hopefully decrease the loss of fragrance is to soap cool. I'm thinking that adding fragrance to wax at a cooler temperature may have the same result. That is why I was surprised when Chuck said that fragrance oil is not going to burn off at a higher temp and why I'm thinking that adding fragrance to wax and pouring at a cooler temp may save the strength of the fragrance (throw.) Thoughts?

So you disregard flash points?

Ok, I'm confused and need help, no not psychiatric help, candle help... If a particular wax melts at 125 degrees and it is recommended to pour between 120 and 165 degrees, why do you heat it higher? Why would you add the fragrance at a really high temperature, say 170 degrees? Wouldn't this degrade or at least burn off some of the components of the fo? I'm chasing my tail and have tried several pour temps, but it seems that with each I get wavey tops or at higher temps I'm doing several pours. I'm not looking for one pour, per se, just want smooth tops. I'm using c-3 with 1% universal additive, various dye chip colors and various fragrances (8%.)

Depending on the quantity you are purchasing, you can get oils locally. I get my olive oil and palm for soaping at a local restaurant supply. Some also have coconut. CostCo has olive at a reasonable price. Check chemical distributors for lye in bulk. Soaper's Choice is in Illinois, near Chicago.

I'm going to get the info on Monday and am thinking doing a co-op a few weeks from now, most likely after New Year's.

Accu-Blend offers coconut wax and are located in Pomona, CA. I'm going to look for other distributors as well.

It depends on the manufacturer. Lebermuth has a minimum purchase, but sells by the pound. You can also by 5, 10, 25, 50 and 100 pounds. For the suppliers we purchase from, I don't doubt they purchase 55 gallon drums. See Southern Soaper's recent inventory liquidation.