Peggy T

Candle Science sent an email today saying that they are now carrying C6. I know folks frequently have questions about C6 (myself included) and it seems there isn't a ton of information available. CS has a page with their testing notes for C6 and it's really helpful.

https://www.candlescience.com/lab-notes-cargill-naturewax-c-6-soy-coconut-wax-blend

Hope this is helpful to others too.

Those look a bit more complicated than my limited 3d printing skills could pull off! 🤣

On 7/28/2019 at 10:15 PM, CandleMaker3D said:

I 3D printed a tool that allows me to center basically any wick in any jar for the most part. If you have a 3D printer available or know anyone that does might want to check that route out.

Do you have a picture for this? I have access to a 3D printer. Thanks

Two main reasons: cost and performance. The wood wick and clip together cost around $0.35 each which adds a good bit to my retail cost. A cotton wick is a fraction of the cost. While I am able to have good burns pretty consistently, there's no getting around the fact that wood wicks are prone to problematic burns if you don't use them under ideal circumstances. I am in the process of creating a new higher-end candle and I don't feel I can justify a higher price point if the candle isn't going to burn perfectly.

I tested HTP 104 and 105 as well as CD 12. I had CD 10 but didn't test them because the info I read online made me think they would be too small. I'm not 100% in love with any of the results. 104 was way too small and CD 12 appears to be too big. 105 is the best of the ones I tried but some burned unevenly (they may have been slightly off center but not a lot); they also left more residue on the sides than I want. So....I'm going to keep testing 105 and research other options too.

So helpful! Thank you!

Thanks. These are 3" so I don't think I'd need a double one (plus I'd rather have a single wick).

Thanks for the feedback. I will give  all of these a try.

I was reading up on the CD 12 and several reviews mentioned double wicking it for 12 or 14 oz jars. Mine are 11 oz and I'm wondering if that is something I should consider? 

After years of using wood wicks, I am seriously thinking of switching my products to regular cotton-type wicks. I will test a ton obviously but would love some input on where to start when researching new wicks to try. I have 3" diameter, straight sides jars and use a blend of mostly 464 plus a small amount of coconut 83. I know I will also need to evaluate FO load with a new week but will start that at 6-8%. I would appreciate any suggestions for potential wicks. Once I get an idea of options I will order several different kinds. Right now, the only wick I have to test is an ECO 12. Pictures below. I started out thinking the ECO 12 might be too big but now it seems that this is possibly under wicked, given the amount of residue on the sides. Pictures are:

1. After lighting

2. 30 minutes

3. 1.5-2 hours

Total burn time on first burn about 5 hours 

4. Second burn after about 2 hours.

Thanks!

I am going to test lowering my FO to 6 or 8% (from 10-12%). When you test a new fragrance what method do you use (size room, amount of burn time etc)? Do you evaluate the burn under ideal circumstances or anticipated circumstances (because those will hardly ever be the same 😁). The space I work in is quite large so it seems like it could be too big for an 11 oz candle, especially when you are evaluating reductions in HT. My goal is to be as detailed as possible so I can gather plenty of data.

For what it's worth, I use 464 with a small amount of coco83, 3" diameter as jars and wood wicks (booster 0.04 and 1/2").

Thanks

7 hours ago, Sebleo said:

So how does it work exactly?  Could I give them a sample of the discontinued CS Gardenia and have them dupe it for me? 

I would start by sending them an email. They were really fast to reply (like minutes 😂). They only work with businesses so you'll need to send them a copy of your business license or sales tax certificate. Then You would send them a small sample of the Gardenia (like 0.5 oz). Their chemists would analyze it by breaking it down chemically to its components, then recreate it for you. They would send you a sample to smell and test and, if necessary, tweak it a bit. The woman who took me around explained how scent changes over time so a brand new fragrance that has just been compounded will smell different than one that is a year old. When you order something from a supplier you have no way of knowing if it's a week old or 6 months and that can make a difference. She explained that she always tells folks to smell the fragrance then shake it up, wait a few days and smell again. I have no idea if my untrained nose will be able to tell a difference so I guess I'll have to wait and see. 

The duplication itself does not have a charge but they have a 10# minimum on all orders (priced per pound). Unfortunately they can't estimate what the cost per pound will be until they determine the components of the original. If you look on their website you can probably get an idea of the overall range. Most tend to be around $16 per pound or less. Also there's a pretty decent chance that they already have a dupe for Candle Science's Gardenia. You can look for it on their website but if you don't see it, I would call and ask. I don't think they're all listed online. The lady I talked to is named Jami and she was really nice and down to earth. 

Peggy

I went to visit AFI the other day since they're about an hour from where I live. It was interesting so I thought I'd share. I've never been to an actual fragrance manufacturer so that was pretty cool. They have a lab with perfumers and chemists that formulate fragrances and can also duplicate other ones with a gas chromatograph. They have a sampling room with about 20,000 (!) different fragrances and they're all organized by category (ie--bergamot, vanilla, grapefruit, etc). Then within that category they have all sorts of fragrances with that primary scent. I asked about Rosemary Mint and she brought out two trays of just that scent--but they were all different. If you wanted to sample vanilla there are trays and trays and trays of those to choose from. I brought a fragrance blend that I make out of three fragrance oils. One of the FOs, Spiced Amber Ale was from Brambleberry, except they have stopped carrying it. They are going to make me a dupe of the final scent using the three FO samples I brought (0.5 oz of each) along with the ratios I used and a sample of the final product in a candle. You have to order 10# of the final product as a minimum but before you do that you can test and tweak the scent until it's correct. The duplication itself doesn't cost anything. They make one of the FOs that I was buying from another supplier so I know at least that one is good quality. They have dupes of lots of other fragrances too. It was really interesting and eye opening. If you use oils in bulk or want to split an order with someone, it's a great way to save money. For example, one oil I was paying $16 per pound (when buying 7 #) and their price was $13.60 for 10#. That might seem like a small difference but it adds up. Overall, a really interesting field trip and if you ever get a chance to visit a fragrance house, do it!

I have played with C6 alone but found it to be really tricky. I was using wood wicks and it was really challenging (though the HT was good). There's a discussion on it if you search C6. I would really like to use C6 because I can drive to The Flaming Candle but so far I haven't had enough luck to consider switching. Once I have some free time I will see if I want to play with it again.

Thanks for the feedback. 

TL;DR is there any benefit to testing fragrance concentrations in a container you will NOT be using?

Longer more detailed version

I am in the process of switching from 11 oz straight sided glass jars to a ceramic 11 oz jar. Both have similar dimensions (height, diameter). I intend to keep the same wax (464 plus a small amount of coconut 83) and the same wick (wooden wick 0.04 x 1/2"). I have been between 10-12% FO and would like to see how much I can reduce it and still get the same HT and CT. My new jars are being custom made in China and will not be here for another 6 weeks but I would really like to start the testing process now, since I will be giving them a 2 week cure. 

Related to this, is there any useful data or insights I could get from testing with other dissimilar containers? I've got 3000 4 oz candle tins that are just sitting around...

Thanks

Candles: 

wax used: 464 + 5% coconut 83

fragrance load (%):  10-12%

average cure time:  1 week

Wax additives: no

container size (dimensions) & type (material) 4 oz tins & 11 oz straight sided jars

wick: wood wick 0.40 1/2" booster wick

Cold throw: strong 8/10

Hot Throw: strong 8/10

Morphing: none noted

Other notes: I'm picky about lavender and this is the one fragrance oil that smells true to the lavender 40/42 essential oil I use in my soaps. It sells well.

Candles: 

wax used: 464 + 5% coconut 83

fragrance load (%):  10-12%

average cure time:  1 week

Wax additives: no

container size (dimensions) & type (material) 4 oz tins & 11 oz straight sided jars

wick: wood wick 0.40 1/2" booster wick

Cold throw: strong 8/10

Hot Throw: strong 8/10

Morphing: none noted

Other notes: I'm picky about lavender and this is the one fragrance oil that smells true to the lavender 40/42 essential oil I use in my soaps. It sells well.

I've had great results with this scent. I've used it with 464 straight as well as 464 plus a little coconut between 10-12% (yes, I know...12% is too high) and 2 week min cure. Very good HT and reasonably strong CT. VERY popular with my customers. The only reason I don't still use it is because I need something that is also soap safe and this one is not. 😕

Just now, Peggy T said:

Thanks for the feedback. I'm having a brain moment here: what is VBN?

 

I'm going to visit their facility on Friday. I'm nerdishly excited. LOL The customer service rep I was emailing was very responsive and friendly as I was asking about several fragrances and finally said "hey come smell all the ones you want then decide on some samples". I am really crossing my fingers this pans out because I need to lower my costs and this would  be the easiest way to do so as long as the quality is good.

Forgot to say, I'm going to take a few FO samples with me as reference points and to also get their 2 cents on duping.

30 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

I have 1 that I bought from them. It is a VBN and it is good.  Very close to WSP and a whole lot cheaper.  I've never had anything duped, but if I cannot find a replacement for Lavender Chamomile by CS I'm gonna have to see about having it duped.  I've also tested a dozen or so samples that were good.  I tried several Peak dupes when that fiasco went down, but then I got over Peak altogether and never ordered those.  
I have a dozen or so other samples waiting to be tested.  They sent out a fall sampler last year that had several BBW dupes.  Those seemed weird to me OOB so I never tested any of them.  I should probably give those a chance.  I might be missing something good.  

Thanks for the feedback. I'm having a brain moment here: what is VBN?

I'm going to visit their facility on Friday. I'm nerdishly excited. LOL The customer service rep I was emailing was very responsive and friendly as I was asking about several fragrances and finally said "hey come smell all the ones you want then decide on some samples". I am really crossing my fingers this pans out because I need to lower my costs and this would  be the easiest way to do so as long as the quality is good.

AFI is Aromatic Fragrances International. They're a business to business wholesaler of fragrances. The minimum order is 10# and they're located about an hour north of Atlanta.

I've never used AFI but they are located about an hour from me. Has anyone used them and if so, what were your thoughts? Also, has anyone had a fragrance duplicated from them?

Thanks

Peggy

I use 5% coco83 with 464. I think it makes a difference in HT (I use wood wicks so keep that in mind.overall). You have to pour hotter than straight 464. I live in Georgia and have not had a huge issue with the wax being too soft. However there have been times where I threw in a freezer pack when shipping on scorching hot days.

I can't comment on 2019 batches of 464 because I stocked up a ton in gall of 2018.

1 minute ago, Trappeur said:

That northern lights sight is just so exquisite.........just beautiful.

 

Trappeur

I know! All their products are gorgeous.

I already have a relationship with a packaging exporter who has sourced candle tins for me but I'd need to be able to show him what I want. I use AliBaba as a way to get an idea of what is available then contact him to help me get what I need. But before I order a ton I need to test a bunch and make sure it fits my needs (and works properly, obviously).