emilyspoppy

I'm not a bath and body products producer at this time, therefore I probably shouldn't be posting here, but I'm wired to try and be helpfull particularly when health and safety issues are involved. I have been investigating a small venture into trying to market a very limited line of M&P soaps and lotion bases that I modify.

Last week I spent several hours in a phone-a-thon with a purveyor of EO's who is also a manufacturer of FO's. I've known this manufacturer for about a decade and thus we've become quite friendly over the years.

During our conversation we discussed the safety concerns I had for skin allergies to FO's VS EO's. My friend explained to me that most of the FO's that he manufactures are skin safe, but quite a few of the EO's on the market were not only not skin safe, but in certain applications they could be even poisonous.

An example he told me was; The pure "natural" Lemon EO he sold was NOT recommended for skin contact due to photosensitivity issues, yet the "synthetic" Lemon FO was considered skin safe at recommended levels. He said this was consistant with some other citrus type fragrances including the popular Bergamot fragrance which is used in many fragrance recipes. He also told me that some "unsafe" EO's could be made "safe", but the process would mean they were no longer pure and natural and couldn't be marketed as such.

I'm sure there are many very good EO's out there, but based on what I've learned about them to date, I'm going to do a whole lot of checking before I jump into fragrancing any B&B products with either EO's or FO's. I doubt if I would ever have the courage to make an underarm product, myself, but that's just me and in no way meant to discourage anyone else what-so-ever.

PLEASE have pity on this B&B "dummy" and don't gang up on me for posting this. I'm just trying to help some reader/looker/lurker out there from assuming all EO's are better and safer than all FO's.

JMO/HTH

Dave

Jeanie;

I might be paranoid about the liable issue, but most of my paranoia may be due to what my lawyer told me in January and some things I've learned during life.

I think most of us would agree that we live in a somewhat litigeous society to some point. Once the lawyers get involved it is easy to understand why there are so many lawsuits that either go to court or wind up being settled beforehand. My own legal eagle is a nice lady, but she's pretty much like the rest of most of those in her profession once they smell the blood in the water. It's how they make their living.

In a "previous life" I had a job, that required me to spend a fair amount of time in criminal court as part of a prosecution team. I once, remember, commenting to a prosecutor friend, how screwed up the system was. He just laughed and told me it was even screwier in the world of civil law. He told me that virtually anyone can sue anybody for any reason. I've never forgotten it.

Without mentioning names, (I don't want to spend the time doing the research), I remember recently reading a thread full of posts that, in my opinion, would make good grist for lawyers to grind in a civil action that brought suits against some board members who were attacking a business owner for "stealing" back the business from the heir of a deceased spouse.

I have nothing to add or comment on the case, but I remember being surprised by what was being posted and the claims being made. It may have been total truth, but regardless, I felt SOME of the posters were not acting in their own best legal interests.

Most of us may have liability insurance on our homes and business ventures, but I think that we're on our own when it comes to liable issues. I'd hate to lose everything I have in this world due to some stupid comment I posted on the internet.

I once worked as a reporter/photographer turned news editer for a small newspaper. Sometimes we did get the story wrong, but usually a retraction buried on page eight or so covered our butts! I'm not sure how that would work in this medium.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what or how they should post. I have been asked on the board and through PM's, however, to say things about suppliers, I'm uncomfortable commenting on. I just took this opportunity to explain. Sorry again for any confusion. I wish I had never posted at all on this thread. I really didn't have much to offer and the distraction apparently wasn't a benefit. Sorry!

I'm a bit surprised that this thread appears to be "confusing" to some.

I believe I understand what Paul (JBN) was asking. I also feel like he states, that it would be a bit paranoid to think that the mass marketers would be interested in creating a phony "home-made" candle or B&B line.

How would they market it outside of a website. Would the people who make the decisions at Walmart really think that because they put a label on their made in China candles that says "Susie's Homemade Candles" customers are going to pay a premium because they think they were made in a kitchen rather than a factory? (More on this below.)

I believe there is NO DOUBT that large companies are monitoring this and other sites for information, however. I can easily imagine a weekly board meeting at YC where the person in charge asks for the weekly report from his internet spy(s). I'm sure they would have a more professional title, though.

In my IMAGINATION I can see them not only discussing trends and opinions that we and others put out there for the world to read, but also I believe they STEAL our IDEAS and RECIPES on virtually anything that could be useful to them. Paranoid? Maybe; But I'll give you odds if you want to gamble that I'm wrong.

As far as our discussing other companies, I try to always keep the thought in the back of my mind what can be considered liableous (sp?) when I post on a company's products or reputation. Paranoid? Again, maybe; But I'll give you odds here too if you want to gamble that I'm wrong.

I recently had cause to see an attorney to discuss my wife and I suing a supplier. I was told I had an airtight case as long as I didn't mention any details that could give that company an option to bring on a counter suit for liable.

Have things been posted on this board about suppliers that the poster could be sued for? I really believe so, but not by me, IMO. I hope this explains, at least in part my reason for my earlier post about suppliers. I also hope some of you now understand my reluctance to elaborate on supplier issues.

Peggy; I too have urged more than one supplier to review this board to see what some of their customers were saying in order for them to get the point to improve their operations. If I was a supplier, I would appreciate candid feedback.

Karen; I know you are not in the trade, but those of us who are are have more than likely spent significant sums of time and money to grow our business and for us to give away for free what has cost us so much in time and money is not smart thinking on our part. I agree with you that once it's on the internet it's "out there", forever! I wonder how much of what we have posted will come back to bite us in our butts?

As I mentioned above; Does it really matter if a candle or bottle of lotion, bar of soap or great lip balm that's really WELL MADE, was made in a kitchen, garage or big plant?

Until recently, I was able to compete with the mass marketers on highly fragrant candles, but as we have observed the trend in our industry is towards wickless wax products. I'm becoming concerned that I can continue to produce a superior product and remain competative. I wonder how much technology on the best waxes, lotions and fragrances was gleaned by the "big boys" from boards like this?

No, I don't think Target, Walmart, K-Mart, YC or any other mass marketer is selling phony "HM" candles on the market. Why would they need to as long as they make their products based on our recipes and have let us do all most all of the R&D for them.

Does anyone really believe that these huge corporations cannot obtain the same ingredients as we do and not at a much better cost. The only thing the big boys need to do is to COMMIT to using the best ingredients and we will eventually become an afterthought. Paranoid? Maybe, but I'm not giving odds on this one. I might be wrong, here. I hope I am.

Sorry for any "confusion" I may have caused by my previous posts. I hope this more clearly explains my thoughts on the thread topic.

JMO/HTH

Dave

I read it as Dave was joking.

Close, but switch the word, "joking" to the phrase, "just making a point" and Chris hit it very hard on the head of the nail.

SHHHH! Big brother is watching!. . . So are a whole lot of suppliers that we like to "rag on", too!

JMO

"Sneaky Dave" :whistle:

Wow! You know your craft. I can attest to the quality of your CP soaps and some beauty products; We'll at least my DW can on the B&B.

I'm sure I'll never make a deodorant product, but I have "Terminal Curiosity" about almost everything.

I use arrowroot in cooking and feel it does not have the thickening power of cornstarch although the textures are similar. I was just wondering. I agree that talc has a better "feel" at least for me. Either, though, can only absorb so much moisture before the clumping begins, in my opinion.

Good luck with your product development. Call me if you find the time,

Dave

That seals it for me!

No more posts from me!

Good-bye all !!!

Dave

I have to agree about the baking soda. Tore my skin up very painfully at any usage rate. Arrowroot seemed to really suck up humidity, and if you happen to sweat it permeates shirts leaving an unsightly ring around the arm pit of dark colored fabric.

I am one that does not like the feel of the oil/butter/wax blends for underarm use - Occlusives in the pit area are not a great idea. Deo's are harder to formulate than they first appear. It took me a little over a year to develop a deodorant stick with an active that works, feels right going on and is hypoallergenic. It was a long stinky journey =D

Shannon; Do you know if corn starch is a suitable replacement for arrowroot in deodorant?

Dave

When does it end? Never, that's when, never!

Now testing 4633 and 4625(combined) for tarts/clamshells.

I hope it will end for me at least when I finally test CBL-129.

All of these numbers are giving me a headache and making me dizzy! I want off of this merry-go-round! (lol)

You might be able to remove the rust, but more than likely it will make a noticable "impression" on the surface of the finish candle.

If your planning on using wick pins and the rust is only on the bottom of the mold the defect in the finish will be important as the bottom becomes the top in most cases. If you plan to wick the mold, many chandlers reverse the direction of the pillar, making the bottom the top, also.

Today most experienced chandlers prefer using non-rusting seamless heavy aluminum molds when they are not "specialty" shapes. Tinned-steel molds have seams and have fallen from favor by many chandlers.

If you're only planning on making some candles for yourself or friends and don't want to invest in another mold(s) you might salvage the one you mentioned. If you want the best candle you can make for resale or presentation, I'd do like Chris mentioned and put it to rest. The prices on metal and polycarbonate candle molds continue to fall in the wake of a slow down in the craft.

JMO/HTH

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

In my humble opinion all have given sound advice to this point.

I actually like the looks of your candle. You should feel accomplished. I'd have never posted my first pillar attemp on a board like this. It's been many years, but if I can recall even our dog hid when I lit it.

I hope you have fun chandlering. I wish I still did.

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

Please Ms. "P"!

Check me out now. PLEASE !!! I'm sorry I'm such a bad speller! We had spelling in first period and I was still drowsy and dreaming of my cozy bed at that time.

Dear Sam & Kenna's mom;

You should not post here for everyone to read that your expectations of who has wisdom is at such a pathetic level as mine. Thanks anyway for the nice, but much undeserved, gesture.

"Dave the Dunce"

I love candlescience, great oil; however, I do have a dud. Something is wrong with the hydrangea fo. It smells off, I will not put it into wax. I cannot put my finger on it, it just does not smell right. Anyone having problems with hydrangea?

I've never tried the hydrangea. It would remind me too much of my grandmother, "Nanny"! (lol)

I did have some issues once with a bottle of "Clean Cotton". It made me think of the song lyrics to "Dixie".

Nothing pleasant about "Rotton Cotton" !!!

I'm sorry ladies that I've been a bad boy.

I promise I won't do anything like this again! (NOT)

"Deceitfull Dave" (Are there two "l's" in Deceiptful ??? - I need a dictionary !!!)

Thanks Cynthia! I don't currently cover the pumps as I haven't found anything that would work, however, I would love to find something. Do you know if there's a tamper resistant seal or shrink wrap that would work?

Dear Russ;

I've received and read your nice PM and will respond shortly.

I buy my bottles at SKS. They have the best deals and selection I have yet to find on packaging. They do have "tamper evident" caps and shrink wrap bands in various sizes.

http://www.sks-bottle.com/340c/SearchIndexPlastic.html

JMO/HTH

Dave

Glad to hear you are doing well Mellissa. I remember as a little boy how much "fun" we had roughing it in our summer home while it was being built. My two brothers were'nt fishermen so it didn't matter as much to them as it did to me that I could sit on the porch and catch fish fresh from the headwaters of the Chesapeake Bay. We all did swim, however! It wasn't as much fun for mom and dad, but I don't thing any of us ever regretted the experience.

Peak's WMH is my favorite Peak fragrance. All of Alan's fragrances are strong and close to true, but finding WMH was a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow for me. My dad was a beekeeper. I often helped him when I managed a visit home. I know what his honey smelled like and I wanted to duplicate it for some of my own fragrance recipes. My decade long search ended when I took the cap off of the bottle.

Thanks, Reluctant Dave, lol

AKA; "Chicken Dave"

Yep!

I'm an idiot!

Nothing to report but very good service!

I just noticed that "candlescience" was on the board at this time and I wanted to say "Hello" . . . Keep up the great service!

David Hill

Great Mills, Maryland 20634

Wow!!! Amazing labels and I know I would be drawn to them imediately!! Very profesional and I agree with everyone that it is a very upscale spa look! You should really approach spas and salons with your line and provide samples and I think you might be surprised how well it is received! Samples get accounts every time! Congratulations! Dave you always make me smile!! You are hilarious and I feel blessed to call you friend! You always have excellent advice and the best humor! Best of luck!!!!

Aw shucks, M'am!!!

If we keep this up folks are gonna talk!

Hey, Angie!

I just noticed this board doesn't have a "pink pumping heart" icon.

A "huggy" one will have to do;

:awww:

Friends forever!

Dave

Dave, I hope your wife will buy one or two so you can see what I'm yapping about. Also, look at the Amazon link above.

That's very interesting about Candlewic supplying a lot of waxes to the walmart supplier; any chance of getting more info still, like which wax, specifically

The candle I tested last nigh smells delicious and burns fine... umph!

Yes, I am glad to see that you are posting. Remember, Dave: "Sticks and stones....", lol. Keep them coming; I, for one, enjoy reading your posts, and I'm sure I am not the only one. Those who do not appreciate your humor or input can always put you on their "Ignore" list. Hope you took no offense at my CW rant about the melting temps; I understand Bill is your friend, but if I have a problem I will say something... no need for nasty comments (I did not, as far as I remember), no insults, etc. but I am not going to refrain from posting because of.... because of..... because of anything!

So, don't you think a little chat with Bill is in order? Hehehe. Inquiring minds (ok, mine) want to know; feel free to think of me as a PITA.

I actually hadn't seen your other thread on CW. I thought Bill was going to get away with it on this board at least. For my opinion on that subject, please read my post there.

No, I'm sure Bill will not discuss who he is blending a WM wax for or it's specifications; at least not to me. I have tried in the past to learn more about his accounts and propietary data, to no avail. I really do not have any of CW's corporate information or secrets that I can divulge either.

I don't want to put any stress on the professional, but friendly relationship I have with Bill and will just have to politely decline to do any more "snooping" there. I might, however, ask him how things are going on making his website better and more user friendly. The current shopping cart works well though and check-out is smooth. Those are often the hardest to fix things from what I've read.

I'll send you an email shortly.

HTH/JMO

"Reluctant Dave"

LOL

I knew as soon as I read this month's "Enlightener" this was going to happen!

I'm just now seeing this. I had to search to find it after reading a post from Ravens in another thread.

I immediately emailed Bill Binder when I read the newsletter I received.

I told him his newsletter was well written (style) and timely, but the change in attitude about temperatures would be at best, controversial.

I think I see where he's coming from, though.

We may be working in too high temperature ranges to get the maximum scent throw possible for our products.

Many times I've had some oils nearly sizzle when I add them to wax in the 160 to 180'ish range. I wonder how many of the more volatile top notes simply vanish when that happens. How much of the FO's fragrance notes are burned off before it even get's in the container?

I personally plan to try working in the lower ranges. If I get good blending, I'm staying there. I primarily use liquid dye and I know how to fix oils that are difficult to blend so I'm pretty sure Bill's NEW advice is sound, at least for me.

OTH; I've told him this too; His website is a mess. There are not only errors, but there are problems, for me at least, to find things. I'd rather go a round or two with a mugger than to find the pricing on his fragrances before ordering.

I've politely told him he should shop his own site and draw his own conclusions. He told me he would, but he also mentioned he does not have an in-house webmaster. (Like some companies including Peak. My additional comments are contained in commas.

I think Bill really does care about us and our opinions.

PLEASE, I'm not trying to take credit for anything that Bill Binder does with his business in anyway at all, but it is a bit interesting at best that just couple weeks ago we talked about many things including wickless wax and clamshell tart trends, CBL-129, and high shipping charges. Who know's he might be working on his website issues as I type this.

I hope! I hope! I hope!

JMO

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

They have fantastic products, but imo their pricing games turn many of us off. Yes, they do have very good colorants.

I was shopping for a new supplier(s) and checked in on the site for my first time. I "registered" and began loading my cart with items when I ran into their "stupid as sh*t" pricing game and just left the site. I have not been back. I cannot believe how some people run their business and manage to stay in operation!

JMO

The Candlewic polycarbonate votive molds simply produce a candle that is taller than the standard (15 hour) sized ones that are made in most common metal molds. Unfortunately, as others have already posted, the votives they produce don't fit many votive holders and are thus unsafe to burn in them.

There has been printed claims in some descriptions of the polycarbonate molds that you can pour directly into the wicked molds and they will do double duty as a votive holder.

I found this not to be true, however. I bought and tested some from CW and found that the mold-turned-container began to melt and turn brown within an hour after lighting it. I even mentioned this in a phone conversation to the owner of CW recently.

I now make all of my votives using metal molds and wick pins. I have for years now.

Since handcrafted votives seem to be falling from fashion by home crafters there are some really good deals on them if you shop around for them. I've even seen them given away at times as sales promotions. CW has them and the pins on sale now.

JMO/HTH

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

Here I go again! Jumping into water that I have no idea how deep it is.

I may be completely wrong, but;

During a recent phone-a-thon with Candlewic owner, Bill Binder he mentioned that he processes a lot of special waxes for a Walmart candle supplier. We were talking about granulated verses pastillated waxes at that time.

I've talked to Bill about granulated wax in the past and have bought a bunch of cases of his over-runs on granulated waxes as closeouts from him. The wax is pre-colored and sandy in appearance and texture (feel). The wax is pre-scented, but what I've experienced is not very strong throwing. A little bit of time in the wax melter and the original scent is gone and I can refragrance it to suit me.

Bill's company makes all kinds of wax. I have many types from there in my long-term storage area. A bunch are granulated. I'm pretty sure the waxes I have used were mostly paraffin. I turned my "recycled sand" wax into votives. I added a bit of Vybar. I got good cold and hot throw and sell out of the votives when, I feel up to making them.

If the Walmart candles are a para-soy blend I suspect the wax is CW's counterpart to IGI-6006. Bill agreed with me that soy tends to shorten the throw time in candles. I don't think the candles you are describing are cutting age technology. Granulated wax has been around for ages. It's made by processing regular melted wax (additives included) and sprayed into a rotating hopper drum(s).

I'll have my DW stop at WM and see if she can give me some info and bring home a sample or two.

JMO/HTH

BTW; See, Raven's (No actual names); I told you I would still be posting. (lol)

Dave

Dang! And I swore to myself yesterday that I was going to give up writing "novelettes" on the board.

Setting aside other sexual comparisons I'm not surprised that a male designed the label. It is a well-established fact that men are more artistically talented than women! (lol) Wait a minute while I put on my "hard cover" and "flak vest". (another lol) OK! Just kidding ladies! Breathe slow and deep. You'll recover shortly. Please smile along with me now. Thanks!

Russ;

I think you're "on target" for an upscale spa environment. It would be a big deal, though if you had some additional POS materials to draw attention and describe the high-end quality of your products. Window signage, flyers, business cards a printed page (either laminated or contained in a plexiglass frame), virtually anything the shop owner will allow.

Give away some samples to the spa owners and staff and provide a reasonable amount of small-sized samples for them to give to their better customers.

Pricing will be a very important consideration. People who use spas tend to have disposable income, but most do expect to get good value and the "best that money can buy" when they make a buying choice. Don't under-price your line, but remember that the shop owner will be expecting at least a 50% GPM and a knowledge that you will back your line completely.

Hey! It wasn't so long after all. Except I'd like to add;

If you're taking this to the market you mention, don't change a thing! The little color block is optional for me. If you like it, keep it.

Good luck with the expansion of your line.

Can I take off my protective gear, now?

Dave

ETA; I just thought; In place of the color block you might want to sustitute a stylized little green leaf. My guess is there may be more than a few "tree huggers" who patronize spas. I'm not sure what it would take to be meaningful, but I don't see where you're breaking any rules of "engagement" by simply including a little thing like a duty-free leaf on your package. Maybe I should wear my armour for just a bit longer, though!

Strawberry?

Hmmmnnn???? "Strawberry Patchouli" !!!! ???

:whistle:

"Wandering Dave"

Would y'all be so kind as to give me your opinion on my labels? I'm thinking about changing them up and going a different direction but I'd like to get someone else's input as to what my labels say to them. Do these say country, spa, vintage, shabby-chic, etc?

Rather than sway your opinion by telling you what look I'm wanting I'll wait until I get a few replies and see if I'm already heading in the right direction.

Thank you!

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I wasn't able, of course, to read all of the print on your labels from the photo but I'd like to state that in my (uneducated) opinion;

Your labels look VERY professional and EXTREMELY well designed.

There is a conumdrum with that, however. They might look TOO professional.

I didn't get a sense of "handmade" or "boutique-based" that some potential customers MIGHT be expecting from a high quality, handcrafted product. I wouldn't be surprised to see the packaging on the shelf of a mass-marketer like WalMart or Target, because they are so very well designed.

I'm not into B&B myself, but my DW uses many products in that category. I can see her looking at the packaging and thinking another "over-priced yet standard quality" product is contained inside. I suppose it would depend on how you will be marketing them and in what venue.

This is in no way a criticism in anyway. Whoever designed these labels in my opinion is very talented.

To answer your question directly, I'd say that they belong in an upscale "chic" or perhaps "spa" category. I'm just guessing at the spa association, though. I'm too old and too fat to climb-up on the table! (lol)

I hope I have not offended you. You have every reason to be very proud of the talent it took to create this design.

HTH/JMO

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

ETA; The board is working funny today. When I wrote my post I was the first to reply to your question. Dave