Help with Dye

[Natures_Nectar]

Im not a complete newbie, have already made candles but I want to find the best base fluid for extracting dyes from plants and vegetables, as water wont work well for candle dying. (learned that the hard way) If anyone has any ideas or any experience it would be much appreciated. I am new to the boards so Im not sure how these work. But I love candle and soap making and want to do this using dyes ive made myself. So if you have any ideas or any experience with this, we would love to hear it. Thank you all so much for your attention and kindness .

Namaste

Persephone @ Ashley

[oakbrookcandles]

With the low low costs for any type of dye used in candles it seems to be a bit cost prohibitive to make your own.. just saying

[Natures_Nectar]

We are very aware of the pricing, but its an ethical decision that we made together that we wanted to know every step that went into making our candles since these candles are going to be used also for metaphysical purposes and with that, every ingrediant counts. But thank you for the reply!We have access to plenty of dye chips and dye liquid but want to make our own.

[Wessex]

I am not an organic chemist, so can only tell you of my experiences. These are modern methods, I am not very familiar with ancient methods. Thet were also not used for candle dyes. That being said, I do not feel comfortable giving exact instructions, for various reasons. Many ways to pull dyes out of organic materials involve types of alcohols and ethers. Then you would have to evaporate these off and use some type of carrier oil to make the liquid dye. Using these in a candle would not be a good thing, IMO. The basic problem is that your wicks would most likely clog up. Also, it would be impossible to have a really consistant dye, so each time you made it, you would have to retest. And lastly, some of the ethers used to pull the organic components out are not really safe to use if you are not familiar with their properties.

All that being said, I hope you do find a way to do it that will work for you. I know this does not really help you at all, but be aware there may be many problems using homemade organic-type dyes.

Cheers,

Steve

[Natures_Nectar]

Thank you for the information, we had been told that some form of organic alcohol might be in the making of it. But People have been dying without ethers for hundreds of years, im sure theres a base fluid somewhere that either can mix with a carrier oil or a carrier oil that works on pulling out the dye in plants like indigo or madder root. We have made an awesome yellow dye from tumeric and carrots boiled together for a few hours in sweet almond oil and veggie oil and coconut oil. We really are experimenting and will have access to an outside fire if the proccess is complicated. We really would like to make this ourselves, cost prohibitive as it is, and the lack of information on how to make an oil based dye naturally. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your knowledge with us, any information is good information in my book. And I want you to know that Im really concerned with the safety of the dye in the candle , so we are taking all precautions. But I suspect that somewhere, someone knows how to make homemade candle dye. And could water be used if its in a small amount.Thank you for your reply, it got me thinking!

[Stella1952]

we wanted to know every step that went into making our candles

What kind of wax and wicks are you using?

People have been dying without ethers for hundreds of years

Certainly, but not necessarily for candlemaking. Dying candles is a relatively new invention - until recently, most candles were not dyed. Because candles were used for illumination, color was not desirable. The color of the wax itself made most of the color differences, like the shades of beeswax and bayberry wax. Modern materials are not necessarily a bad thing. People used to use twisted bits of fiber for wicking and animal fats that smoked and sooted like crazy. Nowadays, wicks are braided and are chemically treated to burn evenly. Just because a wick may be 100% cotton or hemp does not mean it is not treated with chemicals to help it burn more evenly... Modern wicks burn far cleaner and more reliably than ones in the past!

could water be used if its in a small amount

Oil & water don't mix. Water doesn't burn well either.

If I were to dye my own wax from homemade materials, I would steep the various botanical materials in the wax itself. This link might point you in a direction...

http://www.howtomakecandles.info/cm_article.asp?ID=TECHN0004

Of course, without the addition of UV protectant, botanical dyes fade very quickly.

I Googled

how to make dyes

and got many hits.

I am not aware of how one would "fix" the dye into the wax the way one fixes dye into fabric (with a vinegar bath) since dyes in candles are simply suspended colored particles giving the illusion of color rather than the color becoming a part of the material itself. Oil doesn't absorb dye in the same manner as fabric or other fiber or cellulose-based materials.

I also do not know if burning dyes derived from plant oils creates toxins. Burning something and then inhaling it is quite different from treating fabric in it which will then be laundered.

awesome yellow dye from tumeric and carrots boiled together for a few hours in sweet almond oil and veggie oil and coconut oil

Well, there you go - all those oils can be added to candle wax.

I'd suggest you study up on the chemistry of the various waxes used for candlemaking and the stuff used in making those waxes, especially since you want to know everything that's in your candles and every step in the process... It would also be a good idea to study the toxicity of the materials you plan to burn with the wax as dyes. Any dye is a contaminant and inhibits burning of the candle. There's a lot to know about making candles and their ingredients!

Edited January 5, 2011 by Stella1952

[Natures_Nectar]

Thank you so much stella, very informative, I had not even thought of perhaps steeping the plants in wax itself. Also, have seen alot on vinegar being used, and I dont think its toxic in any way, we plan to boil it down till we have a concentrate. But we are definetly looking at the safety of the plants we are using. We dont use any plants that have toxins in them to begin with. Im a budding herbalist and plan on taking botany and so is one of our associates. I dont have anything against modern tools. Heck the wax we use as beeswax is white and it certainly doesnt come from the hive white. But To give a little info on myself and why we are so interested in using older methods and materials. Natures Nectar provides our products for everyone, but we ourselves are spiritual people and live an alternative lifestyle. We realize that it will be hard. But maybe we will be pioneers in this style of candlemaking. We arnt looking for a gimmick, but we want our consumers to know the candle was made using a mixture of old methods and a new dye. The time may come where we use a mixture of dye liquid and our own. We really just want all the advice we can get. So I much appreciate the time you took in looking that up for us. I cant thank you enough. We are new here and being young'ins we have wild ideas. The problem we had was we couldnt reproduce a dye using veggie, coconut, and almond oil to take dye out of red cabbage. We splashed it with vinager and got a splash of color, for an instant, then it went away. So is vinager toxic as a base fluid if its boiled down? More advice please, anyone anytime. Thank you stella, the information you provided is appreciated alot.

[Stella1952]

We are new here and being young'ins we have wild ideas.

*chuckle* As an old back-to-nature ageless hippie chick of the 70s, I DO understand. The Foxfire Books have loads of cool stuff from yesteryear in them.

The problem we had was we couldnt reproduce a dye using veggie, coconut, and almond oil to take dye out of red cabbage. We splashed it with vinager and got a splash of color, for an instant, then it went away. So is vinager toxic as a base fluid if its boiled down?

This is where knowledge of chemistry comes into play. Perhaps the acidity of the vinegar changed the pH and you lost the color you were seeking. Without using mineral-based pigments, there are colors you will not be able to achieve with plants. Understanding that with waxes (basically oils), the color is fine particles suspended in the medium which give the illusion of color. That's not the case with fibers, which absorb the colors.

Without mineral pigments, the colors you can achieve will not be stable (UV resistant) and will lack brilliance except for some reds and yellows. There's a TON of information on the 'net about this, but you first have to understand the basic differences between the properties of the materials you wish to color. Vinegar is mostly water. It will not be suitable to use for candle dyes unless ALL the water is removed. The acidity may be problematic also.

Understand that there is a difference between dyes and pigments. You will need an oil-based vehicle (unless you want to use petroleum distillates) to carry the colorant because of the composition of wax.

Here're some links I found which may help...

http://www.dyespigments.com/natural-pigments.html

http://www.naturaldyes.org/sources.htm

http://www.naturalpigments.com/

http://www.earthpigments.com/

http://www.earthues.com/

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/naturaldyes.shtml

Besides products, these sites have information that may be valuable to you in your project. Good luck & please keep us posted!