Glass glow and wicks...

[tootie04]

OK I am testing the CSN wicks from CS and WOW is the flame big. Even if I trim the candle to a nub the flame is still big. It is not airpockets I dont have any of those for sure...

What other wick would be good to try in the 9oz hx type jar?? I have CD's anyone know a size I could start with??

[Stella1952]

I use CDN 10 & 12 in that jar. The 12 produced some soot around the shoulder of the container that I didn't like, but not so much as to be totally objectionable.

[tootie04]

Thanks stella...I have some CD 10 and 12's so I will have to try one of those. I also have some CDN's I got for testing so I'll try the 12 in there first.

I really like the CSN wick I put in there but dang that flame is large....no matter how much I trim down it is still big.

[Jeannie]

Yeah what's with the huge flames? I'm testing this wax too with various wicks and so far the flame gets tall on most of them or weak later. So take your pick, weak or tall, lol.

[tootie04]

Oh great....neither one actually....if you keep that CSN wick trimmed to a nub it is OK...flame still tall...but not too aweful bad....BUT if you just trim to 1/4 inch it is too tall for me!!

[Stella1952]

There's been a lot of discussion about the higher flames of GG... obviously it's some kind of additive that makes it have better container properties as this does not occur with pillar formulas.

One thing I have found is that it doesn't take a huge flame for palm wax to burn well. As a palm wax container (or pillar for that matter) burns down into the candle, the flame WILL become smaller. While this may look strange and a little disconcerting, if it did not settle down & burn more slowly, the extra heat would cause the wick to drown out because of the "weeping" from the sides as the candle "catches up." I have learned to love the slow, steady flame from palm wax. I think it is one of the longest burning waxes I have used.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Stella1952

[Jeannie]

No probs with the pillar/votive wax it burns great.

I've been doing some reading on here and it seems the large flames in containers is a common issue with this wax. So apparently it's normal for the most part. I know for myself I have visual expectations on what is good and what isn't. I've never been fond of large flames but apparently is going to be the nature of the beast. :rolleyes2

[Stella1952]

Actually, large flames ISN'T a great idea - you may have to wick down... what looks like a puny flame may turn out just fine.

[Jeannie]

Stella, may I ask what size jar you use for the glass glow?

[Stella1952]

As mentioned above, I use 9 oz. hex jars. I also use the 6.5 oz. hex, 8 oz. & 12 oz. Metro jars and a 2 oz. votive.

[Jeannie]

Whoops, I meant to ask how wide is it, the 9 oz hex that is?

I'm not familiar with the CDN wicks but I have not experienced any soot with any of the wicks I've tried so far. Large flames yes, soot none at all. That just seemed odd to me since you said you like to wick weak.

Ah well, tomorrow is another day, I'm off to dream land.

[Stella1952]

Whoops, I meant to ask how wide is it, the 9 oz hex that is?

Inside measurement side to side is 2 3/8"; point to point is 2 7/8"; approx. 3" to the bottom of the shoulder of the jar with a 2 1/8" mouth opening.

I'm not familiar with the CDN wicks

The Stabilo (CD) series that Heinz Verhaegh manufactures is a non-directional, coreless flat braid wick with a paper filament woven around them. They are self-trimming & have a consistant capillary action that helps to burn high viscosity waxes like veggie waxes more efficiently. The KSTs (CDNs) are treated "with a special patent-pending process to resist the corrosive action of the acidic nature of natural-based candle waxes."

The CSN wicks Tootie was using (CS recommends a 9 on their online wick guide) are treated with a chemical similar to (or the same) as used on CDNs that help them resist the effects of the high acid content of veggie waxes. That's why CandleScience had Wedo develop that particular wick for their Glass Glow and other palm waxes. CS doesn't supply much information about that wick, saying, "A full description of the components of a wick series is proprietary information and not published by the manufacturer." :rolleyes2

...but I have not experienced any soot with any of the wicks I've tried so far. Large flames yes, soot none at all.

Does the container you are using have "shoulders" and a narrower mouth opening like hex jars? Did you burn the container all the way to the end? What kind/size of wick did you use?

There is always a certain amount of particulate material released from the tip of a flame, whether visible as smoke and soot, or not readily visible to the eye. If the flame and the fuel and the O2 are all dialed in right, there will be very little particulate matter (soot) released, but it is there. Whether you see it or not depends on the angle of the tip of the flame to a surface on which it can deposit (like under the shoulders of the hex jar, or top, inside area of a straight sided container) or whether the soot is released into the air, unseen, before it has a chance to deposit on anything. With large flames, a certain amount of soot will be captured on the underside of the shoulders at some point in the burn because the longer flame tip does tend to dance a little. If I rub that area of the hex jar with a tissue, after the candle has burned to the end, I find a small amount of soot from the CDN 12, as mentioned earlier.

That just seemed odd to me since you said you like to wick weak.

I don't recall saying I "like to wick weak." I think I have stated that I would rather err on the side of a smaller size wick for safety considerations, so long as I still get the RoC and hot throw I need from the smaller wick.

[Jeannie]

WOW, why are you getting all technical, lol.

My experience with soot is that if you said something about it, you most defiantly saw it, lol. If it was unseen soot you wouldn't have brought it up would you? Why do you sound like you want to argue anyway?

Yes the jar does make a difference but generally if there is soot the wick is TOO LARGE. And no you didn't say you like to wick weak that is the impression I got from you. You would rather have a weak flame then a larger flame. There are lot's of variables to what is a weak flame and what is too hot. Please, let's not go there. I've been making candles for 10 years I think I can handle it. I said the high flames seem to be the nature of the best and you right away assumed I don't know what I am doing. I simply stated my experience so far testing this wax as I was relating to tootie who is experiencing the same.

I have heard of the CDN wicks but I have never used them because I don't like CD wicks. By what I can recall reading about the CDN I got the feeling they were similar so I never tried them.

I have been testing with the CSN wicks so thanks for the detailed info there, lol. I'm also testing hemp, cotton and LX. I have a huge bag of different wicks but can't seem to find them. Most of my testers are too the bottom and have went out aside from a few. The CSN 9 is also recommended for votives. I would like to hear if that works for Tootie cause my guess it probably won't. However, I felt the 9 was too hot for votives as well as the hex squat jar IMO, though that is what is recommended so hey you never know. I liked the Lx14 for votives and the 44c for the squat jar until I can get some smaller size CSN to test.

I'm using a square cube jar which can be a pain in itself. The top is 2.5" and the bottom is approx 2". Should be easy right? Yep~ The CSN 12 cleans the sides down after about half way it starts to clean up. It's a great wick aside from the tall flame. The CSN11 was hit & miss, OK for lighter scents but can't seem to produce an acceptable burn on the first half. Though the flame is still fairly tall, strange. I think it would be a flop for the consumer. I may test it again I'm sure. The 60C has a bit smaller flame but it can't seem to pull the sides down near the bottom. It produces a nice melt pool but the wax on the sides is actually barely warm. Defiantly the safer wick, lol. The hemp 1400 was too weak (drowning) and the LX I never seem to care for in larger sizes. So there is my take on it so far if anybody cares~

[tootie04]

I used a CSN 12 in that jar. The MP is PERFECT and the jar is not too hot. Just the flame is too big.

Thanks Stella for the info on the CSN wicks. I am gonna try a CDN this weekend and will test it end of next week sometime. I am not in a hurry to perfect the palm right now...just playing mainly. If I decide I like them I will have them ready for Spring.

[Stella1952]

I used a CSN 12 in that jar

That doesn't surprise me at all, Tootie. I think finding the exact, correct, perfect wick from a wicking guide is an impossible dream!:laugh2:

WOW, why are you getting all technical, lol.

The reason I get all technical, lol, is because people ask questions which require more than a rudimentary answer or supply insufficient data upon which to base any kind of assumption.

My experience with soot is that if you said something about it, you most defiantly saw it, lol. If it was unseen soot you wouldn't have brought it up would you? Why do you sound like you want to argue anyway?

You said there was NO SOOT. There is ALWAYS soot released from a flame whether we see it or not. Perhaps you meant that you saw no soot deposits on the container? Did you wipe the edge with a tissue to check for small, almost invisible soot deposits? I did. That's how I found out the soot was there! I did not depend solely upon my perception - I tested it.

There is a common marketing lie about veggie waxes that I am SURE you have heard over your 10 years of candlemaking, which states that veggie waxes are "soot free." I try my best to squash it whenever it shows up so new people reading threads do NOT continue to be misinformed and inadvertently misinform their customers.

In the case of candles, if there is combustion, there is soot; where there is fire, there is smoke.

It may not be VISIBLE, but it is there nonetheless. I can't see germs either, but they can cause some terrible problems!

The reason I sound a little testy about it is because people who have health issues depend upon accurate labeling & information. Telling the TRUTH by making ACCURATE statements is a lot easier and most candlemakers would like to know the truth to tell so they do NOT misinform their customers.

Dat why.

Yes the jar does make a difference but generally if there is soot the wick is TOO LARGE.

Maybe so - what excessive soot means to me is that the combustion isn't balanced for some reason - O2 is wrong, wick's the wrong size, wax additives are causing trouble and/or the FO is a problem. Could be any of those things, not just the wick size. Heck, without someone asking or someone telling, they could be testing a candle in a draft for all I know, which would cause the most perfect candle to soot like a rag torch! Ya gotta have good information before you can really say what is causing something...

you right away assumed I don't know what I am doing

If I had thought that, I would have said so. What I DID think is that you left a lot of pertinent detail OUT of your reply that might make a lot of difference in your reported observations. I know better than to ASSuME anything! But I DID right away assume that new folks reading the thread for sure don't know all that technical stuff, which is why I asked for more detailed info.

Most of my testers are too the bottom and have went out aside from a few.

Not quite sure what that means, but I am thinking you based your observations on testers you had burned all the way to the end?

I'm sorry, y'all, but the information I posted about the CSN wicks was not very helpful. Except for being designed by Wedo & allegedly treated with something similar to CDNs, they don't say a damned thing about those wicks that could be construed as useful. It's far easier to find info on nuclear warheads than on those wicks...:rolleyes2:rolleyes2:rolleyes2

square cube jar which can be a pain in itself

Yep, those round melt pools in square cubes can be a PITA with which to deal. Glad things are working out for you there. I think many people become quickly disenchanted with a wax or new product because they choose a difficult shaped container in which to test their new stuff.

I'm also testing hemp, cotton and LX. I have a huge bag of different wicks but can't seem to find them.

I HOPE you are keeping good notes on all those tests you have running... When you finish, I hope you'll share your methods, data & results with everyone so we can all learn.

[Jeannie]

Hmmmmmmmmm~

[radellaf]

FWIW I've been trying CS's 6oz Hex Jar an the CSN9 they recommend is way too large (little or no dye, 5% of their Very Vanilla). Even CSN 7 has a high flame once you burn down halfway. LX10 has a weak flame sometimes, and the wick grows a layer of black deposits but for all that it's just big enough to clean the sides and hasn't needed a trim. Could try LX14 for the 9oz if CSN9 is too big.

Right now I'm trying to decide whether to sell the CSN7 or LX10 jars. I think the CSN if a few tests at the near end-of-burn show the jar top isn't going over 175F.

I agree with the other comment about lower flames in palm pillars. There is a fine line between spill over and too small a flame.

[radellaf]

CSN14 pillar fore, CSN16 back. The 14 burns with a 1/2-5/8" flame and has not burned through even during 4+ hour burns. The first couple of burns (2 hr or so) needed to be watched but once there's enough of a wall it seems to be spill-safe. The CSN16, even down as far as it is, will burn through the sidewall. Won't _necessarily_ drip but it could.

Details: CS Feather wax, 10 oz, 5% FO

Front: 1/4 chip Cierra fluorescent blue, CandleMakersStore Desert Sage

Rear: CS liquid dyes, 1 drop yellow 1 drop purple, CS Plumeria

Edited November 6, 2009 by radellaf
details added