Newbie CP help

[bravo5]

Sorry, this is going to be long... Trying CP again! Made several batches with other soapers, and the first on my own quite a few months ago now- finally made solo batches #2 and #3 yesterday. I tried a recipe from the forum here that seemed pretty cool, and I had all the goods for it!

Crisco 15%

Coconut Oil 15%

PKO flakes 15%

Shea Butter 5%

Safflower Oil 25%

Pomace Olive Oil 25%

I played with the soapcalc.com a bit and put in to superfat 5%, and set lye concentration to 33%. Don't ask me why I did this- I can't remember- I may have confused myself somewhat here.

Batch #2- used 1oz PP Patchouli (DPS wax- my fav patch!), and mix of red and blue liquid colorants from KB. Hand-stirred and came to a pretty thick trace in about 4-5 minutes. I had too much for my mold (3-in-1 do-right), so I poured the rest into little silicone muffin molds. I wrapped these in towels. I tried to oven process the main part, but only got about half hour and had to leave on emergency and had to shut oven off. When I got back about aan hour later I wrapped it in towels and a blanket.

Batch #3- used 1oz PP Purely Herbal (BCN) and tried a pathetic attempt at a swirl with green liquid colorant from KB. The colored part traced really fast once I added color (I had to spoon it in) so I stick blended the remainder but when I poured it was about medium trace. I oven processed this batch- a hour in 180 degrees, then shut oven off and left overnight. This one was in a wood slab mold. I think it kind of gelled in the oven- I kept peeking at it, and it did change consistency, looked softer and such, and kind of got wet looking on top.

So, today after 24 hours I unmolded and cut both. Both were really soft- kind of like a hardening clay. Batch #3 was better, but batch #2 was really soft. A couple chunks stuck to the plastic mold and kind of pulled off on both ends when I unmolded. I could easily put finger marks into it-it really reminded me of modeling clay. The pieces that broke off I easily made into a soap ball.

Now CP attempt #1 a few months ago was opposite- different recipe, though. I oven processed that one too. When I unmolded after 24 hours, it was more hard and crumbly- a few pieces crumbled off when I cut it. I knew that wasn't right. This one ended up being really drying on my hands too- but the recipe did have a lot of coconut. (Was just coconut, palm oil, and olive.)

So am I right to think that it's not supposed to be this soft when I unmold and cut? Should I have left it in the mold for longer? I had some on my hands after cutting and washed it off, and it got a tiny bit sudsy but not much.

Both smell yummy so far, though!

Sorry so long- wanted to give details in case I did something wrong!

[GrandmaArial]

A 33% lye concentration is a bit low, works out to a water discount of slightly less than 29% which is just slightly lower than the 30% lowest safe recommended water discount. It explains why it traced so fast. It may also have not dissolved all the lye in that amount of water. Lye needs the water to react with the fatty acids, in its crystalline form it is not an ionic substance and it is the ionic reaction that makes soap. Like mixing baking soda and citric acid in oil for bath bombs. It will be relatively stable. Enough heat will cause some reaction but it will be incomplete. So be careful with it.

Your first recipe would be soft with all the OO and safflower oils, and leaving it in the mold an extra day probably would have helped, though with that water discount I would have expected it to be pretty firm with in 24 hours. You didn’t give proportions for the second so I don’t know.

Good luck with them, and if they don’t work out remember we all have failed experiments. But do be more careful with lye discounts, they are not the same as water discounts.

[bravo5]

Ok, gotcha- thanks for the info. I'll do more reading on water vs lye discounts.

Both batches were the same recipe.

So now what? Do I just wait? Other than watching for it to firm up, what do I look for?

[GrandmaArial]

Ok, gotcha- thanks for the info. I'll do more reading on water vs lye discounts.

Both batches were the same recipe.

So now what? Do I just wait? Other than watching for it to firm up, what do I look for?

If it were me I would set it aside a few days and see how it does. I always check ph using ph strips, but most here just check for zap. Up to you. If it didn’t burn your hands it’s probably ok, but check anyway. You don’t want the PH higher than 9.5. That’s as high as most skin can take. My concern is the lack of lather. It could just be your oils, its low on bubbly lather oils but should have good creamy lather. But let it sit a few days and see it it firms up… then test it. If its good- the great! If not then you learned a lesson and you’ll never make that mistake again.

[bravo5]

Ok, sounds good. Thanks so much!

[eugenia]

Your safflower is high. Safflower is a soft oil with a short shelf like. I suggest using it at 10% or less. Using high percentages of short shelf oils can lead to rancidity and DOS in your soap.

As for the 33%, I use that percentage often. If your oils and lye are too warm, you can experience problems with fast trace. Your batch that was crumbly is typical of lye heavy soap. Was the soap OK?

Oven processing and water discounting basically do the same thing, so there is no need to combine the two processes. If you are going to use the oven, don't discount the water.

[GrandmaArial]

As for the 33%, I use that percentage often. If your oils and lye are too warm, you can experience problems with fast trace. Your batch that was crumbly is typical of lye heavy soap. Was the soap OK?

quote]

Bravo say’s they set “lye concentration” to 33%, am I confused? Lye concentration is the percentage of lye in solution with water… right? That would bring the water discount (which is percentage of water to oils) down to 28.7… below the recommended minimum of 30%... everything I have read has said that the maximum safe level of lye solution is 32% (works out to a 30% water discount). Did I read it wrong or did I read wrong stuff? Euginia, you know I think you are THE soap goddess… I even stopped freaking out about ash because you told me I didn’t need to worry about it (ok, I still rinse it off… but that’s because I think it’s ugly but it no longer scares me). . please explain to me where I either am not understanding or got bad information.

[bravo5]

Yay, more info! I am so fascinated by the soap making process and am loving learning all that I can. I am reading everything I come across as fast as I can and I know it's confusing my little peabrain... but slowly things are starting to sink in! So pardon all the questions.

I'm still trying to get the soap calculator figured out- did I do something wrong when I calculated this?

The first batch (the bit crumbly one) ended up okay, it was just kind of drying to my hands after awhile. Could that have been because it was lye heavy?

These next batches are definitely hardening up. I can pick the bars up and squeeze them now, and while they're not really "hard" yet, it doesn't leave an indent anymore. The oven processed one is the harder of the two.

So I guess I am going to play with the soap calc with the oils I have and see what I can come up with! I know I want to use olive, pko, coconut and soy, and then I'm pretty flexible about what else to use at this point- just no animal products. I have small amounts of a bunch of other oils to try- so I'll play with recipes. Can you suggest any good all veggie recipes to try next?

[eugenia]

GA, water discount is a confusing term.

If you go to soap calc and don't change a thing and punch in one pound of coconut oil, the lye value returned is 2.79 ounces, 6.08 ounces of water, that's a 31.418 % lye solution.

If you set the concentration to 33%, it's 2.79 ounces of lye and 5.33 ounces of water.

The term "water discount" is extremely vague and misleading. I will tell you that the numbers have changed quite a bit. When I first starting soaping in 2003, the standard was 28% lye solution if you did not change it. It's much clearer to speak in terms on lye to water concentration.

Many people use a higher concentration than 33%. I'm not sure what the max is. Perhaps someone more experienced will chime in.

[greensoaper]

I truly wish we could remove the term "water discount" from the vocabulary of every soapmaker around the world.

This term has led to so much confusion and frustration for so many. Wipe it from your memory and retrain yourself to think in terms of lye solution strength. When we speak in terms of solution strength, we're all speaking the same language. This isn't the case for "discounting".

A 33% solution strength is pretty standard. I actually prefer 38% unless I'm soaping a problem child like clove or geranium. I've been known to use 45% in a crunch (not recommended for newbies). Most sources recommend not going higher than a 40% solution.

Back to the original post. I agree with Eugenia, too much safflower. Your formula puts your linoleic at 30%. That's a pretty risky gamble. Personally, I'd roll back the safflower to about 5% (and that's only if you insist on using it at all) and up the olive to 35 and the crisco to 25. I really think you need another hard oil here. I love palm, but lard or tallow would work too.

Hope that helps.

[singleyellowrose]

I do 25% safflower. I have bars that are up to 2 years old and haven't had any problems. That said, the other 75% of oils are hard. Safflower is the only "soft" oil I use.

Your best bet is to post your formula or what oils you have on hand, and let other members help you with a formula.

[GrandmaArial]

Ok… I was foolish and assumed that everyone who publishes a book calling themselves and expert is one. I should know better. But now I’ll have to find scientific papers on saturation points for NaOH… what a drag. I don’t know why I accepted this “information” on face value, I so seldom do that. This reminds me of when I got my iguana. I went and bought a half dozen books on iguanas and read them all… then a month later threw them out as wasted money. Just because someone calls themselves an expert doesn’t make them one.

Ok… after a nice hot bath and a couple cups of coffee I finally found the info I was looking for. And I was a fool for accepting what I should have known better… saturation rates of most crystals vary by temperature (NaCl is one of the few exceptions to this). I know this, it’s basic. The saturation point of NaOH at 0C is about 32%. (0C=32F, Freezing point of water). However at 20C (68F) it is about 50% and at 40C (107F) the solubility level is 70%. As we all know the reaction is exothermic and the solution temperature is going to get much higher than that. So anything about going over saturation rates is a crock (unless you plan on soaping in a deep freeze).

I would, however, still be concerned about using to high a concentration, especially for a beginner. The higher the concentration the faster the exothermic reaction will run, the hotter it will get, and the faster it will trace leaving the possibility you could not have time to get it completely homogonous before it becomes unworkable. Granted I have grown old and slow but I like to water discount that gives me about 20 to 30 minutes between pouring the lye water in the oils and pouring the soap into the mold. If I’m making a Castile with 70% or more olive oil I will discount water to 30% but most of my recipes I prefer 33%. That 4 to 5 minutes and I wouldn’t have had time to finish stirring it, much less get it into a mold! And forget swirling, scenting or coloring.

And thank you euginia for waking me up and making me find the facts.

[bravo5]

This is all so interesting to me! I am starting to understand a bit better.

As a beginner, I will take the advice given here and have you guys help me with a good beginning recipe. I have lots of good oils to play with here, so I'm itching to make soap! I don't need anything too complicated- I can play more with the different oils later to see how the soap comes out. What I'd really like to make first is a nice basic veggie bar, then go from there!

I don't use any animal products, so tallow and lard are out.

I have lots of:

- lots of olive- pomace (from columbus foods) and several gallons of various cooking type OO (virgin, extra virgin, etc.). Does using different types of OO make a difference when figuring out a recipe?

- coconut

- palm kernel flakes

- palm oil

- soy

Then at least 1-2 pounds each of of:

- crisco

- apricot kernel

- safflower

- sunflower

- shea (natural and refined)

- cocoa butter (natural and refined)

- grapeseed

- FCO

- rice bran

- sweet almond

- jojoba

- castor

- 8oz of macadamia nut oil

[eugenia]

Here is a recipe for you

Coconut 15%

PKO 15%

Shea 5%

Palm 15% (that's the 50% hard oils you want to strive for)

Castor 5%

Safflower 10%

Olive 35%

You can use regular olive or pomace, but they have different saps so choose the one you are using in the calculator.

[bravo5]

Cool, I will try it! Thanks!

Since the lye calc confused me last time, what do you recommend for me to start with for the settings for lye concentration? Should I just leave the defaults to start with and try that?

Ok, I see how this recipe has changed the properties.

[bravo5]

Ok, I finally got brave enough to try the tongue zap test on this soap today. I didn't get anything that I noticed, anyway. If it has a zap, would I definitely notice it?

I took a little bit and washed my hands with it, and got a nice thick creamy lather. Not big fluffy bubbles. I like the thicker creamier lather, so I was happy with this!

The bars are hardening up nicely. If I really squeeze I can dent them, though. So does this mean that these batches are okay, just more of a softer bar?

Next time I definitely want to try for a harder bar, but I'll be happy if I can use these for myself! They smell YUMMY!!!!! They're curing in my basement, I can smell yummy soap as soon as I start down the stairs.

I have been way busy this past week and haven't had time to try again, and am already going nuts wanting to make more! I think I'm hooked!