angelcandles

My candles look great and appear to be burning well. However, when I go to relight them in the morning after I’ve blown them out for the night, the flame grows very tall and a small trail of black soot comes up from it for about 3 seconds every time. Then the flame gets smaller and the soot disappears and it burns like all is well. Is this normal? It’s been a long time since I’ve purchased a candle from a store so I can’t figure out if this is normal or if my wicks are off. 

I'm having a hard time wicking my soy wax and I think one of my CDs is looking good. The flame is a bit high (1 inch) but it isn't burning too hot to hold the jar and it is reaching a very near FMP on the second or third burn, with some hang up. One thing is though, when I pick up the jar and sort of swing it from side to side I sometimes get a little poof of soot coming off the wick. Is a little soot normal? Is having no soot achievable?

I think I’ve found a great wick for my jar and wax. BUT, I lit my candle today at 11am and here it is 11pm and the jar is a little too hot to touch on one side (it doesn’t burn me but I would not keep my hand there longer than 2 seconds). I want my candle to be comfortable to touch and hold at all times. 11am - 11pm is a long time to burn a candle but we never know how long a customer will keep theirs lit. How do you judge that a jar is too hot? 

5 hours ago, TallTayl said:

444 has been hit or miss for several years.  It has always been problematic as far as cooling behavior, prone to cracking and cavities. 
 

Pouring temp and cooling rates are both important.  You may need to test various methods to find one that works well in your environment,

 

meanwhile, I would poke holes in that bad boy to see if you have cavities hidden in the candle, especially around that wick.  As mentioned above, a repour to fill any potential cavities and top off should help.  Don’t be surprised, though, if the second pour cools with odd frosting because of the differences in temps.

Interesting. Can you recommend a slightly easier to understand soy wax for a soy beginner? I know soy is notoriously temperamental but maybe 444 is not the right fit for my novice skills.

I can try more variations in my pour temps. 

I have a strange problem. I made a candle using 444 wax. Heated til 185 F, poured at 149 F. When it cooled, it had a smooth surface...all except for a strange line like a crack where the wick was. I thought it looked odd, so I poked the crack and it fell down, showing me that it was a "false top", like a thin layer of wax on the surface, that when poked gave way to rougher textured soy beneath it. I attached some photos. You can see another crack like line in the right hand side of the candle in the first photo. What is going on here? I'm stumped. 

I thought I found a wick for my 4630 wax (34-40 for my 3 inch tumblers and three 28-24s for my 4 inch tumblers). However, once all the candle is burned down, there is a huge amount of residue on the sides of both tumblers. Is this normal? Should I settle with this wick or should I expect a cleaner burn than this? The first photo is my 3 inch tumbler, the second is my 4 inch tumbler. There is no sooting or other problems with the wick whatsoever.

47 minutes ago, pughaus said:

@angelcandles This video may help you see how hang up burns down and why you don't want an edge to edge MP in your early burns.  They're testing with soy but the same principles apply.

 

 

This is a long video! I will watch all I can. Thank you.

1 hour ago, NightLight said:

Cd wicks burn much like htp wicks. Lx wicks to me burn very clean and tidy. Try testers with other jars and compare. Or adjust the wax, add some soy and clean up The paraffin.

Aah add soy! I think it's best for now to eliminate the variables and see if I can get a good burn either in my tumbler jars or my apothecaries. I may just need a jar adjustment. Will make all the tests I can with the few wicks I have left in both my jars to compare. I have ordered the CD sample pack, I hope I have enough LXs left to test with now, you have really tempted me to go for them.

2 hours ago, bfroberts said:

The internet has gotten "tunneling" all wrong (and IDK if I can properly describe it).  If a candle is tunneling, it actually creates a tunnel.  If there is a thin shell of wax left on the container that weeps down and corrects itself before the candle extinguishes, no tunnel is there.  So, not tunneling.  Just hangup.  For some reason, everyone all of a sudden thinks tunneling happens if a candle doesn't reach a FMP.  Which is odd to me, because the candles I buy off the store shelves rarely reach a FMP early on. Unless it's a multi-wicked candle, but that's a different beast anyway.  Once you've made a few like that and see the hangup eventually correct itself, you'll be able to tell pretty early on if you've got tunneling or just hang-up.

Based on the unscented candle I'm burning w/LX18, I can only assume you got soot w/your burn with LX18 because it was struggling.  Mine is textbook perfect in this mason jar, and I've had the fan on, I've blown on it, partially covered the jar, all kinds of stuff and I can't make it soot to save my life.  You will definitely need at least a couple sizes bigger in your unscented tumbler.

 

 

Yes, sounds like I got it wrong. I will retest with the few wicks I have, see if anything pulls through now that I know the difference between tunneling and hang up. So many wicks/candles I've vetoed because I thought they were tunneling...well, maybe it was just hang up! I agree, I have a single wick Ikea candle that has hang up. My multiple wicked Bed Bath & Beyond candles don't have hang up, I will keep that in mind.

I am going to retest with my LXs (if I have any left) and see if I can get a good burn. 

22 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

I find those kinds of jars more difficult to wick than a jar with shoulders such as a mason jar, straight sided jar, etc.  IME, it is impossible to get a FMP in the early burns without having a large flame, scorching hot jar and soot in the latter burns.  Without shoulders to hold in the heat, that pretty FMP just does not happen early.  The wick series doesn't matter as much as you might think.  The results are the same pretty much across the board.  If it's big enough to get a FMP early, it's too big later and all you're gonna get is an ugly, messy, unsafe burn.  Zinc 51 - 60 is what I use for 4630 in status jars, which are basically the same diameter.

 

Because you were having so much trouble with soot, I decided to burn a 4630 candle with no FO.  It does have one drop of dye, but I don't think that makes much difference.  It is a square mason jar, wicked with LX 18 and I have had no soot at all.  It has burned perfectly clean, and despite my efforts, I have not been able to coax it to produce even a smidgen of soot. 

Have you tested larger zincs....51z-60z?  Have you tested LX 18-20? That should be about where you land when you add in FO.  But you will have to be content without that FMP in the early burns.  I just don't think it's gonna happen in that jar, not with the clean burn you want.  It is easier (for me, at least) to balance that FMP early AND a clean, safe burn in other jar types.

Wow, it must be the jar making the difference then with the LX 18. I can't imagine what other major variable there could be. I have some apothecary jars, maybe I'll give them a shot with my new CDs (just ordered the sample pack) as well as my tumblers and compare results. I'll  keep in mind that I'm not looking for an FMP in the early burns. Just wondering, when do you categorize a candle as "tunneling" and not "well, maybe it just needs to burn a little more to melt down the wax on the edges of the candle"? 

I have tested LX 18-20, my notes say there was soot on the first burn. I have not tested 51z-60z, I have a 51z-32z, I'll move to the CDs if there's not a good result.

1 hour ago, bfroberts said:

When are you seeing the soot?  Is it puffs of smoke coming off the wick or soot around the jar? 

Smoking wick, large flame. Of course there were some (smaller) sizes of HTPs, Zincs, and LXs that did not soot, but I wasn't satisfied with my melt pools (seemed too small, no FMP after 4 hours of being lit). Also, weak flames on second burns was a common occurrence with the smaller wicks.

12 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

Premiers were a big fat no to me in 4630, or anything really other than soy.  Zinc, LX, HTP, paper core and RRD are the best of the lot for 4630 IMHO.

Are you still testing without FO?

Yes I am. And I will say that one Zinc wick looked good to me (44-32). This wick gave me my best melting pool but when I tried a second burn, the sooting was there. I think I will start off with the CD sample pack (they've been recommended to me multiple times). If those don't work, I will branch out to paper core and RRD, maybe my best best is to find wicks in RRD and paper core equivalent in size to the 44-32.

I'm about to order a sample pack of CD wicks from Flaming Candle to try and finally find a wick for my 4630 wax in a straight tumbler jar (3 inches). LX and HTP and Zinc sample packs were all failures for me (sooting, every one of them). I am thinking about getting the Premier wick sample pack too but am not sure how they work in a 4630. Anyone have any experience? 

Also, I've heard paper core wicks work well with 4630, but I can't seem to find a sample pack that includes a wide variety of sizes.

On 7/25/2019 at 6:47 AM, Forrest said:

I'm not using any foodie FOs right now, but I have had success with LX wicks with 4630. The trouble with HTPs is that they lean over and your MP is one sided. Someone recommended twisting HTP and I tried that last week but haven't burned the candle yet.

Have heard about the leaning with HTPs and my tests with them all sooted, so HTPs are out for me. LX wicks sooted also. I've ordered a sample pack of CDs, we'll see how these go.

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

Still too early to really tell. Keep burning. The temps will continue to rise as it continues down the jar. Currents will begin to whip up. Everything changes radically. 

 

Soot is caused by incomplete combustion.  If the wick material and chemical treatment is not suitable for the fuel you will get soot even if the wick seems initially small. 

Unfortunately I veto’d this HTP 41, the soot was just a “no” for me. I wouldn’t accept it from a store bought candle. I’m trying an LX 16 next. I am waiting on some more wax in the mail and from there will do some major testing of every possible wick. I’m sure I’ll have something new to post then! Lol. Thank you for your guidance. 

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

A picture will help. Sometimes tunneling is not tunneling. 

 

Here’s a cheapie Aldi candle that some would say “tunneled” the entire burn.  Nothing could be further from the truth. It left a fair bit of hang up the entire 150 or so hours it burned perfectly. The melt pool at its widest was maybe 1.5-2” across and 1-2 millimeters deep.

 

The hang up nearly all cleared by the last power burn. At the point of this pic I power burned it at least 3 more times. The walls of scented wax gently wept into the small melt pool throwing scent far and pure.

 

Once we get over fear of a little hang up candles get a lot less frustrating. McCall’s candles rarely, if ever get to full melt pool and people buy them by the multiples loving them for what they are. 

 

 

I have to say the hang up is so not aesthetically pleasing to me. Here’s some photos of my candle, it’s been burned about 5 hours by now. The hang up on the sides is about 1/4 inch tall. 

There is also sooting at this point (mild, but there). How can a wick be too small to give an FMP yet still big enough to soot? 😣

6 hours ago, Laura C said:

 

In my opinion this candle looks great at this point and sounds like it's doing good from what you said. See how it looks after 4 hrs. And I like to do at least 6 burn cycles with a wick before I give up on it unless it's just blatantly a loser. How did it turn out?

Burned it for 3.5 hours, no FMP but a nice wide burn nonetheless. Lit it up again and it’s beginning to tunnel. Guess I do need to wick up after all. 

6 hours ago, Laura C said:

 

Yes, as people have mentioned it's tricky to try to start out with wick testing by only using a less than full candle. Make yourself some full candles, you can also make them wickless and insert different wick sizes on the fly. Know how to do that? Make full candles without wicks. Once they harden take a metal or wooden skewer and poke a hole in the center all the way to the bottom. Cut the wick tab off the wick and insert it in the candle. Warning, be sure to keep track of which end of the wick had the tab because you don't want to insert the wick upside down, it won't burn properly. Due to the way they are made some wicks are "directional" and some are "non-directional" and they are not always labeled so I just always assume they are directional and insert them properly. Directional means that they were designed to efficiently allow the wax mix to flow in only one direction. Wick info https://wicksunlimited.com/wicks/

 

Or per TallTayl you can do this and replace a wick that has a tab attached. https://www.craftserver.com/topic/114191-how-to-do-a-wickectomy-to-replace-a-wick-assembly/?tab=comments#comment-1081828

 

About achieving a full melt pool. I didn't get it at first either and I know it seems odd to not want a FMP on the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd burn but this is the deal. If your candle container gets hot enough to reach a FMP on the first burn then imagine how hot it will get once the candle melts down to the middle or bottom of the container. You are trying to plan ahead and avoid an overly hot and dangerous candle. Make sense? 

 

And do yourself a favor and avoid wasted time and materials by watching these two candle wicking videos, they should be very helpful for you.

How to choose a candle wick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esnBcoafKNQ

 

Candle Testing. Test Safely and Accurately, from 1st burn to end of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niZ9Ic5Be2w

Thank you for all the info. I’m a little confused. If not a FMP, what should I look for on a first burn in your opinion? I tried burning this candle with the HTP 41 again and sure enough it is beginning to tunnel. I think this wick is just too small. 

9 hours ago, bfroberts said:

If you are testing jars that were only 1/4 full,  that will produce a totally different result than a full jar.  A lot changes throughout the life of the candle as it burns down into the jar.  Generally, in a full jar, a FMP on the first burn is not ideal.  Speaking from experience with that wax and that jar, if you wick it to get a FMP on the first burn in a full jar, it will be a scorching, sooty torch once it burns further down.  At only 1/4 full, I would expect a FMP by the end of the initial burn.   HTP 41 is going to be too small.  

What, in your opinion, should I look for on a first burn if not a FMP? HTP 41 was too small, tunneling happened. 

5 hours ago, Laura C said:

 

No drafts, right?

No drafts but I had done a goofy thing which I think may have messed with my test results. I tested many wicks at once, but since I don’t have much wax at this time, I poured each jar only about 1/4 of the way full. I think that the sooting may have happened because of the flame struggling for oxygen deeper in the jar. Still, I feel like even when a candle gets down to the last inch or so, there should still be no sooting, right? I can’t decide if I should trust these results or not. 

6 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Are you trimming to 1/4" prior to lighting?     

Better yet, can you post pics of your wax and/or candle?

Yes, I am trimming to that length. I am retesting with an HTP 41 because I was told that an FMP on a first burn is not important. I have been burning this 41 for two and a half hours now. No FMP, the flame looks great (no sooting, about an inch tall). Not sure if it will tunnel. I thought an FMP was standard on any burn so I’m a little confused on what to look for now. Some photos: 

Well I’ve just tested an LX 18, LX 20, LX 22, Zinc 44-24-18, and an HTP 73 and all had immediate sooting issues. What the heck is going on? 

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Don’t worry about full melt pools on first burns. That will set you up for failure through the life of the candle. 

Wow I’ve never heard that before. Why is that? Can you share any more guidance for test burns? I thought an FMP was the ideal effect from any burn over an hour. I plan on testing my first burn (once I find the right wick) for 4 hours (a power burn) as I believe this is how most people burn candles (it’s how I burn mine) 

3 hours ago, bfroberts said:

HTP wicks can work just fine in 4630.  LX and zinc also work well.  Personally, I prefer zinc, and I'd start testing with a 51z and adjust from there.  It has been a long long time since I've burned any 4630 with no FO, and I can't remember how it behaves, but I think it's harder to burn without FO than with.  With HTP's, I'd start testing with 83.  IIRC that's what worked in tins which also have a 3" diameter.  Be sure to trim the wick to 1/4" before lighting. 

Looks like I should test with an 83 and also my zincs and LX’s. Guess it’s just testing til I get a winner! 

4 hours ago, NightLight said:

Use candle Science recommendations. They recommend LX wicks for this paraffin. HTP wicks are good for super hard soy. You are getting a large flame in small size because htp is meant for different wax. Any wick will burn but not all wicks burn nice in different waxes.

 

https://www.candlescience.com/learning/wick-guide

Ok. I’ll give my LX sample pack a try.