Need to rewick a batch :(

[jonsie]

Lesson learned: one pound of EO can be drastically different from the next, even if from the same supplier. Next time I'm buying in huge volume from an EO supplier, not a candle supplier.

Now what is the best way to salvage this?

I have 10 wicked and filled large status/metro jars. The wick is drowning within 3 hours of the first burn.

So this is my recovery plan. Please jump in anytime to offer advice:

1. Gently rewarm two containers in the oven until completely liquid

2. Pour into two new containers but with no wick, stir, and cool

3. After curing for 2 days, poke hole for a wick in one container and test with new wick sizes

4. Once a wick size is found, retest with second container for complete burn

5. Once wick size is confirmed, gently rewarm remaining containers in oven until liquid

6. Pour all melted wax into Presto Pot, warm to maximum of 150F, stir, and repour into newly wicked containers

I guess my concern is, would the wicking be affected by remelting the wax and possibly burning off the EO/FO? I still have quite a bit of this EO left to use and would like to have established some kind of wicking for this bottle.

Ugh.

[Tribalvixen]

I would get a pair of pliers (sp?) and pull the wick out and put another in same hole before I did anything else to narrow it down before I went melting/ repour etc. I dont warm in oven to melt wax I dig it out (soy wax) with a spoon...(I know sounds weird) because I hate eating food that tastes like fo. Then I would repour one with the wick of choice and complete a full test burn. If I was happy then I would pour the rest. Thats what I would do.

[Stella1952]

i hate eating food that tastes like fo

rotflmao :laugh2:I dunno, some of those FOs sound mighty tasty to me!!!:laugh2:

Sorry you're having problems, Jonsie... you can always melt one down in a double-boiler on the stove or in the microwave (short 15 second bursts - stir with a wooden skewer)... But pulling one wick to test isn't a bad idea before you turn everything inside out...

Edited September 29, 2011 by Stella1952

[jonsie]

I like y'alls recommendation much better than melting down and recuring!

But once I melt and repour the rest, will the wicking pretty much stay the same?

[Tribalvixen]

rotflmao :laugh2:I dunno, some of those FOs sound mighty tasty to me!!!:laugh2:

Mmmm Dragons Blood Chicken or citronella chocolate cake....bleh lol

[Stella1952]

But once I melt and repour the rest, will the wicking pretty much stay the same?

Most likely... I don't see why remelting would change the wicking...

citronella chocolate cake

Sure - keeps the flies away from your cake LOLOL Probably will not repel dogs and children, though... Edited September 29, 2011 by Stella1952

[Tribalvixen]

I have not had wicking change because of remelting and I have done alot of that lol. Sorry for the mini hijack Jonsie. :embarasse

[jonsie]

Thanks y'all! And I need a good laugh right now!

[jonsie]

Ok, I'm back because I really need to vent.

Another bottle of a different type of EO, from the same supplier, was different from the previous bottles. Fragrance is weak, wicking is off... but I didn't know this until after pouring 15 lbs of candle wax with it. All in all, 25 lbs of wax that I need to repair.

I have put in so much work this week with very little to show for it. Fortunately I'm feeling somewhat Zen about it, and the bottle of wine with friends earlier didn't hurt

[Stella1952]

You sure are learning lessons the hard way... The previous batch should have taught you to:

ALWAYS TEST NEW STUFF

Needlepoint that and hang it on the wall!!

I don't care if you've been buying the exact same wax and the exact same FO from the exact same supplier since the dawn of time - every new batch of A N Y T H I N G that goes into your candle should be retested (ONE component at a time) for QUALITY ASSURANCE.

[jonsie]

It is so true, they do need to be tested. As for this second EO (Lavender), I had actually poured all of it first and both EOs had been curing at the same time. I was just late in testing the Lavender because it has been consistent from bottle to bottle, it had seemed unlikely to be a problem. Yup, lesson learned!!!

[deena]

Jonsie

Sorry to hear of your frustrations and troubles. EO are so hard to find a good reputable brand, not sure that any Perth suppliers are any good in this regard.

[bart70]

Sorry to hear of your problems Jonsie - I certainly agree with the suggestion of trying to pull out the wick and inserting another as a first option. I have done this myself on a couple of occasions with success.

Product consistency is something at irks me a little and I have provided my view below (for those who don't like rants.....turn away now! )

My personal opinion (and happy to accept that others may not agree) is that our suppliers should NOT change products without disclosure. They claim to know candlemaking and should be well aware of the issues that changing a product without disclosure creates. I have been caught out with being sold products that have been known by the supplier to have changed without disclosure. If it is sold as the same product, I expect it to be. It is not acceptable for them to hide behind the 'you should test everything' disclaimer (...I am not suggesting that testing should not be done, only that it should not be used by manufacturers/suppliers as a get out of jail free card for poor quality control where a KNOWN change has occured).

Smaller candlemakers may be able to test everything each time they get a new ingredient delivered. Larger ones cannot. The logistics of using near a third of a 2500ml bottle of FO each time one is delivered to test all products to see it has not changed becomes impractical. For me to test one of every product line in each FO (I use 13) uses just under 33kg of wax - the only practical way for me to manage change is via batch number rather than by the box.

Some products due to their nature of manufacture can vary - FO's can be manufactured very consistently from batch to batch if the manufacturer wants to. FO manufacture is not a black art - products can be made consistently very easily. The same technology and science applies to the food flavoring industry (we have managed to keep Coca Cola taste fairly consistent for a long time).

I can accept that our suppliers may be innocent in this at times if manufacturers change products without notification - but I DO know that many of the FO suppliers have used gas chromatography to map their FO's and it is extremely easy (for them) to determine if there is any variance from batch to batch. I would be prepared to say that those who use this method are most likely producing a consistent product.

Our suppliers should be taking the higher ground and purchasing from these manufacturers who show a commitment to product consistency (I know one of our Oz suppliers is showing signs that they are at least attempting to do this, cannot comment on the other as they have not provided any evidence to suggest they are). I also accept that FO supply is a difficult area for our suppliers - a constant juggling act of demand vs shelf life leaves them in a no win situation at the best of times. (remembering they need to purchase in bulk to make it profitable for both them and us.....the last thing they want is drums of FO sitting out the back for years!).

I accept this is not easy for the suppliers, but it could be easier for them if they were more conscious of quality control measures on the products they stock - they may find the purchasing habits of customers may become more consistent as they develop trust in the products.

Bart

[Tribalvixen]

Jonsie so sorry your having this problem. I have not gone near making stuff with EO. Apart from the whole TGA thing, I dont want to deal with the ramifications of someone using something that could harm them eg clary sage when pregnant. I hope you get it worked out. Maybe try the sydney essential oil company. They are pretty expensive but might be more consistant and worth the extra dollars.

[bart70]

Jonsie,

I recall there is also an EO/FO manufacturer/supplier on the nth coast of NSW. From my understanding they only supply in larger quantities to the manufacturing sector. I have not dealt with them at all but when I was researching FO/EO suppliers some time ago I recall being impressed with some of the detail on their website. They are located throughout the world and produce locally available oils in each of their locations and supply each other. From memory they had a large list of available oils listed with the country of origin and method use for extraction etc.. Their technical data looked good and I recall thinking they looked very professional (some I looked into at the time looked very dodgy! I recently received some correspondence from an Indian based FO/EO supplier/manufacturer that was so poorly written that it was almost incomprehensible! If this is the attention to detail used in their marketing to clients, I would be highly suspect of attention to detail in terms of product consistency).

If you are interested send me a PM and I will see if I can chase up ther name of the company on the Nth Cost - but from memory they listed on their site that they do not sell in small quantities so this may make it more difficult (and I think it may have been the reason at the time why I did not pursue them as my EO use is minimal).

Cheers,

Bart

Edited October 1, 2011 by bart70

[Stella1952]

Smaller candlemakers may be able to test everything each time they get a new ingredient delivered. Larger ones cannot. The logistics of using near a third of a 2500ml bottle of FO each time one is delivered to test all products to see it has not changed becomes impractical. For me to test one of every product line in each FO (I use 13) uses just under 33kg of wax - the only practical way for me to manage change is via batch number rather than by the box.

I am not going to argue that some suppliers/manufacturers put stuff out that they shouldn't. It happens and this IS the real world. Even if suppliers took all the risk and responsibility of testing, I'd still do it myself. That's called "due diligence."

IF one has done their work of thoroughly testing EACH of their products, this is a very quick and easy process. You have data recorded for each product and KNOW what the "norms" are for each one. With a "natural" product as potentially changeable as essential oils where each batch can be subtly (or vastly) different, depending on crops, environmental conditions, etc., this makes testing a MUST, not an option. EOs are far more delicate to use in candlemaking than are FOs. This is a risk assumed by the end manufacturer - that's thee and me.

FO testing is one of the easiest tests to perform. You do NOT have to use a huge amount of wax nor do you have to test every single product in your line - that's silly. I use a 4 oz. canning jar to test new purchases of FOs I have previously tested. I make the test candle exactly the same with known ingredients - the only thing that changes is the FO batch. It either works as expected or it doesn't. I am not risking pounds and pounds of wax nor am I making testers for every single container - this isn't a NEW FO test, a NEW wick test or a NEW wax test. This is simply a quick, quality assurance test to insure that a new ingredient performs like that last batch did.

If I open a new case of wax, I take the time to make one 4 oz. tester to assure that the product is the same. This is NOT any huge inconvenience. It DOES mean that I cannot wait until the last minute to do things like order new ingredients... If one orders 8 replacement FOs, make 8 testers. If one orders 8 new cases of wax, make 8 new testers. How hard is that?

Wicks get the same testing. I make ONE tester for a particular wick & size that I use. If it performs as previously recorded, excellent, rock & roll. If not, we have a problem to resolve BEFORE I have wasted a lot of product. Advance planning prevents getting in a bind.

It's a decision every candlemaker consciously makes: to test or not to test. If one hasn't planned far enough in advance and is rushed, one might make the decision to forgo testing of that ingredient. That's called taking a risk. Sometimes people get away with it, so they relax and think they don't have to do this as a matter of course. Eventually they get burned by wasting a lot of materials and labor. That's their choice, but it will NOT be mine!

Sorry, Bart, but I can't go down this road of shifting responsibility for quality assurance onto the shoulders of others - the responsibility for quality assurance of MY product lies with me. The buck stops here. Coulda, shoulda, woulda... Sure, others could do better, but I am not going to make a large bet of my time and materials ($money$) to discover that someone else dropped the ball and I've been caught with my pants down. If you want to do that, knock yourself out, but I'm going to make testing newly purchased ingredients MY responsibility and part of MY production line.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Stella1952

[bart70]

This is where we will have to agree to disagree, but after reading your post a couple of times I don't think our views are that different from each other particularly around testing. :smiley2:

My point was that they should not be relying on my testing as their due diligence particularly when they know there is a change in a product. I was meaning more like a change of manufacturer for a product moreso that changes between batches of product. Due diligence cuts both ways - it applies to them selling to me just as much as it applies to me selling to my customers.

Bart.

[nadiap]

Jonsie,

sorry to hear about your problems and hope you can salvage the majority of your jars

I've remelted in the oven and not had any cross contamination with foodstuffs Tammy

Oh it's smelled for a bit, but I leave the oven on with door open to get rid of any lingering smells lol I also often add a bit of extra FO to make up for any possible evaporation of the FO as well.

As for EOs, there is a company in WA for EOs that I've heard good things about, but I don't buy EOs in large quantities, so this company may be ideal for you if you buy in bulk: Range Products

I agree with Bart also, the suppliers *should* notify their customers if any stock has changed in any way. You ring them up asking questions, and all they tend to do is fob you off - esp. if you are 100% sure that there is something different about a particular product you've purchased before.

I have a question in an FBook forum of one of our suppliers about an FO that just doesn't work right. In a recent post, she claimed that they had tested every FO they carry - but when I queried one of them, she admitted it was one of their earlier ones and that no, she hadn't tested it - and that I should use additives to get the wicking right.... ah no thanks ! if going from a cdn 10 to a cnd 14 doesn't work in a small jar, why should I use an additive in the hopes that it works - I'd already spend enough time and $s testing something that doesn't work - I'd rather just not use the FO, not go and buy MORE product in the hopes that it works - easy lol. I'd rather they would be truthful right up front, they'd get a lot more respect, and ultimately more business from me.

PS: Sorry about the length and not quoting.

[bart70]

Jonsie,

I have a question in an FBook forum of one of our suppliers about an FO that just doesn't work right. In a recent post, she claimed that they had tested every FO they carry - but when I queried one of them, she admitted it was one of their earlier ones and that no, she hadn't tested it - and that I should use additives to get the wicking right.... ah no thanks !

I stumbled across that Fbook post recently also and thought it really odd that they advised to add Vybar or UA for the problem you described using a vegetable wax!

They do a lot of talking.....I have learnt from personal first hand experience that not all of it is true which is sad as many people take what they say as gospel.

Bart

[Stella1952]

they should not be relying on my testing

suppliers *should* notify their customers if any stock has changed in any way

This is assuming that they KNOW. They cannot test every unopened case of wax nor can they test every large shipment of FO from their manufacturers. They are SUPPLIERS, not manufacturers. Mistakes DO happen.

They are not relying on MY testing - I don't report my results to them unless there is a problem. What I rely on is if I tell them there is a problem, they either refund my money or replace it with non-defective product.

Most reputable suppliers DO let their customers know if something has been reformulated. If they do not, I'd shop for another supplier who has better ethics. BUT, whether I am informed about a formulation change or not, I am going to test all the ingredients I use every time they come in because I AM the manufacturer of my candles and that is MY responsibility.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Stella1952

[bart70]

This is assuming that they KNOW. They cannot test every unopened case of wax nor can they test every large shipment of FO from their manufacturers. They are SUPPLIERS, not manufacturers. Mistakes DO happen.

They are not relying on MY testing - I don't report my results to them unless there is a problem. What I rely on is if I tell them there is a problem, they either refund my money or replace it with non-defective product.

Most reputable suppliers DO let their customers know if something has been reformulated. If they do not, I'd shop for another supplier who has better ethics. BUT, whether I am informed about a formulation change or not, I am going to test all the ingredients I use every time they come in because I AM the manufacturer of my candles and that is MY responsibility.

Stella,

Your testing was never in question here. It is great you have choice when your suppliers do the wrong thing by you. I am sure many of us over here wished we had the same luxury when we know that our supplier has knowingly done the wrong thing by us. I guess this is why they can do it!

Bart

[bart70]

Jonsie,

I found the link to the EO/FO people on the Nth Coast of NSW. If nothing else it may be interesting reading.

www.fpioceania.com.au

Cheers,

Bart

[deena]

Nadip, regarding your mention of Range Products.

I was very dissapointed with the EO from this company. Not that I use them in candlemaking, but for other B&B products.

[bart70]

Deena,

Have you heard any feedback on their FO's? There are a couple there I wouldn't mind trying.

Bart

[jonsie]

Whew, a lot to catch up in this thread. Sorry for not quoting, but thanks to everyone who commented and made suggestions.

Overall, I want repeat customers. I want them be able to buy one of my candles and have a certain level of confidence in the quality, so I like Stella's suggestion of a 4 oz tester for each box of wax, and each new batch of EO. I think I can swing that, especially if I can buy my FOs and EOs in large quantities.

Bart, I agree that our suppliers SHOULD provide disclosure when making a major change, just as our own customers would expect us to. But considering they hardly have any competition and are extremely busy as it is, I doubt that is going to happen. I think that they should make an effort to provide a batch number and date on their FOs and EOs, but that simply is not going to happen, so I'm just going to give up on them completely for EOs.

Overall I've been happy with the local EO supplier, Range Products. They provide a batch number and date on most EO labels but I'm not sure if they offer 2500 ml volumes. I haven't tried their FOs yet. If their EOs smell dodgy, my nose may not be discerning enough. Some of their's is pricier than the candle supplier, but if I can count on long-term consistency from them, it will be worth it to me. I haven't ordered from SEOC or New Directions because their prices tend to be about the same, if not more. Bart, thanks for the link to FPI Oceania. I may give them a call to check prices.

Tribalvixen, I understand your hesitation about using EOs and some of the risks. I try to avoid anything questionable but there is still a lot for me to learn. I think it's time for me to get enrolled in some classes, and in the meantime I've ordered Essential Oils Desk Reference to get me started.

Thanks everyone.

Edited October 2, 2011 by jonsie