bramoncada Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 anybody know what causes sink holes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam W Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Some waxes naturally shrink as they set up. You will need to do a second pour to level out the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminousBoutique Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've found with my soy wax I can get sink holes if my container is cold... heating my container and cooling slowly has eliminated the problem in my soy container wax. For pillars I just expect it, know I will need to poke some relief holes, and do a repour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsie Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) This is my opinion based on experience, and may not necessarily be correct:Soy wax expands when hot, and contracts when cool. Usually, the wax at the top of a container candle cools and hardens before the internal part of the wax (either from a new pour or from a post-burn melt pool). As the internal wax starts to cool, it has to contract somewhere. When it contracts internally, it creates pockets within the candle, pulling down the weak tops of the candle. And that's how we get the sink holes.Following this theory, the lower the temperature you pour your wax, the less chance you will form these pockets within your candle.However, when you burn your candle, and create a new melt pool, all bets are off for the top of your candle because you and your customer cannot control the temperature at which the melt pool cools. What usually results are crazy-looking tops as the soy does only what soy knows what to do... Soooo... I've been thinking about soy and its melting point, and of ways to adjust how it solidifies while cooling. I'm playing around with the idea of adding other veggie waxes and oils with OTHER melting points, using a combination of higher melting temps and lower melting temps. GW464 has a melt point of 113 - 119F. Coconut oil (76): 76FPalm Oil: 91 - 102F (need confirmation)Palm Kernel Oil: 102 - 106F (need confirmation)Cottonseed Additive: 144 - 155FStearic additive: ?? (higher than GW464)Universal Soy Additive: ?? (higher than GW464)Anyway, I haven't done a whole lot of testing with this yet. So far my only attempt was 70% GW464, 20% Palm Oil, and 10% Coconut Oil poured at 155F, with 6% FO and liquid dye. No sink holes that I could see, and the top cooled pretty evenly after a long burn. But all kinds of frosting, lol. I think I need to bump up the melt point with a higher melt point additive and see if that helps with the frost.All of what I said here is based on my own theories, so I welcome any feedback. Edited February 20, 2011 by jonsie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacoWax Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Pure Stearic has a melting point of 150F. With impurities about 145F.When mix with parafin wax the melting point drops. don't know about Soy guess it also drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) A quick search for "sink holes" yields pages of discussion about this common issue. The rate at which the wax in the center is contracting versus the rate at which the rest of the candle is contracting determines whether there will be sink holes. The physical properties of waxes determines how it handles this - some waxes are more sensitive to this than are others. You didn't mention what wax you are asking about... How one cools their candles has a very strong bearing. HTH Edited February 21, 2011 by Stella1952 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallartistry Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The only time I've ever gotten sink holes in my soy container candles is when I poured too hot. Soy needs to be poured at 95-110 degrees. As long as I pour around those temps, I get nice smooth tops (-: -------------------Homemade Soy Candles by Homemade Candle Creations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Soy needs to be poured at 95-110 degrees. As long as I pour around those temps, I get nice smooth tops (-: This is not accurate for ALL soy waxes. NatureWax C3 works quite well being poured at 165°F.Pure Stearic has a melting point of 150F. With impurities about 145FThat may be true of animal-based stearic acid but it is not true of palm stearic. Palm stearic has a MP of 158°F. Kosher grade palm stearic acid is 100% palm stearic acid with no impurities. I'm not sure why one would use animal-sourced stearic acid in a vegetable wax candle... Universal Soy Additive: ?? The stuff I use has a MP of 165°FAll waxes expand and contract due to temperature. Some handle this better than others. Pillar palm wax, for example, contracts a LOT. Pillar soy waxes have to contract more than do container waxes because of mold release. Container soy waxes (with the exception of one of the Ecosoya CBs which is designed to contract slightly from the sides of the container) don't contract as much because of jar adhesion. The reason container soy waxes develop sinkholes is the difference in the rate of cooling between the interior, bottom, sides and top - especially the top. If the top cools too rapidly, the warmer wax underneath will cause a sinkhole to form. Paying attention to even cooling prevents sinkholes completely in the soy waxes I use (NatureWax C3 & Ecosoya PB). HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yea im getting frustrated. Im using ecosoya and 464 blend.. I figured that if i added more Eco ( 3 parts) to 464 ( 2 parts) it would correct the problem of the rough tops but it just made it worse. I also added less dye because i thought that was the problem. It wasn't.. maybe ill try less FO but I'm just confused why im getting the post burn HEAVY sink holes as i thought eco would control that. Pouring at around 135. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAgirl89 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Yea im getting frustrated. Im using ecosoya and 464 blend.. I figured that if i added more Eco ( 3 parts) to 464 ( 2 parts) it would correct the problem of the rough tops but it just made it worse. I also added less dye because i thought that was the problem. It wasn't.. maybe ill try less FO but I'm just confused why im getting the post burn HEAVY sink holes as i thought eco would control that. Pouring at around 135.I too use 464 wax and have issues with sink holes, however it's not chronic. I've stopped adding color to my candles because every one I've made resulted in rough, pitted tops, sometimes sinkholes. Not adding color to the candles has cut down the lousy tops considerably. It's the only factor that I have changed when making the candle. I melt to about 170, add FO and pour about 150/160. My wickless candles I can color and get nice smooth tops, every time. Lately the hair dryer has been effective in smoothing out the tops of those candles that didn't result in nice tops when they set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 yea I took the dye out and even put less FO ( citronella) and still sink holes.. im gonna try eco 4 parts to 464 1 part and see if this will correct the issue... However i was really hoping to keep the 464 for the throw attributes... and advice from here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Pay attention to the cooling rate for your candles and the sinkhole problem will improve. HOW you cool candles is a big factor in controlling sinkholes. If the outside and top cools far more rapidly than the center, the hot center will pull down the center top. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam W Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yea im getting frustrated. Im using ecosoya and 464 blend.. I figured that if i added more Eco ( 3 parts) to 464 ( 2 parts) it would correct the problem of the rough tops but it just made it worse. I also added less dye because i thought that was the problem. It wasn't.. maybe ill try less FO but I'm just confused why im getting the post burn HEAVY sink holes as i thought eco would control that. Pouring at around 135.Are we talking about sink holes or tunnelling???? Do you have a picture you could share with us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Thanks stella!! im going to try that i remember a post you put about the cooling before... And I burned all the candles ( im reusing the tins to save money) but basically post burn it looks like a worm hole... so possibly tunneling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAgirl89 Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 This is the kind of 'hole' I'm getting in the tops, otherwise creamy and smooth.464 wax heated to 170 - poured at 15012oz canning jarCandied Apple scent from NGAnd I've noticed, I don't get these 'holes' in my apothecary jars. It's all very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I keep getting these with Ecosoya 4 parts 1 part 464 .. heated to 185 poured at 135. with once ounce citronella... cant seem to stop them from happening been testing for weeks! even removed the coloring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 oh yea... these are POSTBURN!!!!! my tops are fine after initial pour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam W Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Can't see the pic but from what you're describing, you may have a wicking problem. Tell us what wick you are using and hopefully someone that uses your type of wax will chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 12 oz. canning jars are tall and narrow. The top tends to cool faster than the interior of the candle, thus the sinkholes. The photo above is a classic sinkhole. Cool your candles more slowly and evenly - sometimes it helps to cool under a large box to prevent drafts and uneven cooling. Place the candles on racks so the surface doesn't either hold in the heat or rob heat from the container. Even air circulation all around works best. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 This is the kind of 'hole' I'm getting in the tops, otherwise creamy and smooth.464 wax heated to 170 - poured at 15012oz canning jarCandied Apple scent from NGAnd I've noticed, I don't get these 'holes' in my apothecary jars. It's all very strange.I use this wax as well and I heat to 170 (I am very careful not to go 1 degree over) and pour at 140 or 135 on racks with a box covering them and hardly every get a sink hole- I do sometimes get a rough looking top with certain FO's from JS but a heat gun smooths them out:cheesy2:I do also warm my jars before pouring- I set them on a cookie sheet on top of gridle upside down while I melt and mix- then wick and pour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAgirl89 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Thanks all for the advice and tips! I am using ECO wicks for most of my containers, ECO 4 or ECO 10. I will definitely try the box for cooling. I keep the jars a good 5 to 6" apart while cooling but the room I'm working in (my kitchen) is drafty so maybe they are cooling too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 I'm using eco 14 wicks and 8 ounce candle tin... Ecosoya 4 parts to 464 1 part with 1 ounce citronella FO. My apartment is a little on the cool side so this may be part of the problem... but i get really heavy holes just like the picture that the girl was having. MAYBE I SHOULD PUT THEM IN THE OVEN TO COOL???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 The mechanics of HOW it happens is not the issue - how to resolve uneven cooling in each person's work area is the challenge. Drafty is more of a problem than a still, cooler temp, IMHO. Play with it and you'll find something that works for you in your situation. Each person has to find the techniques that work best for them. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bramoncada Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 Yes i tried putting them in a oven so will see if this does the trick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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