Darkest color using dyes?

[samandkennasmom]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could help me out? I would like to try another line of candles using a dye. I have not worked with many dyes as I have not used any with my candles before. I only want a dark cranberry, black, dark green and mustard kinda color. I use straight soy which I'm hoping I will be able to get dark colors and not pastels. Should I try liquids or crystal dyes? Thankyou so much for the help!

Hugs

Michele

[NaturallyTru]

I use liquid.

Trudi

[kyme1911]

I have liquid dyes, but only use them for special orders. I will say that I recieved a sample of Flutter Dyes from CC, and they were awesome. Red was true, I always had problems getting that color with the liquid dye.

Kyme

[Candybee]

For soy I prefer the reddi-glo dye chips. I get brilliant colors with them at 1 chip per lb. I have also added as much as 4 dye chips for deeper intense colors with no wick clogging. For soy container candles they are great without the worry of frosting that some candle dyes produce.

I get my reddi-glo dye chips from CS.

I also tried the flutter dyes from CC and had good success with the ones I tried. However there aren't as many colors as the reddi-glo and I believe that they are made for or by CC so they aren't available elsewhere. If I am wrong someone can correct me.

Another reason I get them from CS is because I order other supplies from them so its convenient to get my dyes there too.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Candybee

[carol k]

I use liquids. For black I use 30-32 drops of mc's black liquid dye.

[Stella1952]

I use straight soy

What is that? There is a wide range of different among all the different brands & formulations of soy wax.

Before I say what I am about to say, please don't anyone who responded in this thread take my remarks personally or as a challenge. I am just turning my brain inside out on the page and asking questions, not intending to be argumentative, challenging or putting anyone on the spot.

When I hear people say they get vibrant, dark value colors with soy wax (not parasoy), I have much doubt. Even assuming that they INITIALLY do not exhibit frosting (take some of the deep hued candles seen in the CBXL threads for example), what do these candles look like in a month? In 3 months? In 6 months? What do those candles look like after burning? Do these candles burn well leaving little or no hangup without heating up the container to an unacceptable level? Very few soy candles do not exhibit frosting to some extent after repeated burns. Now I haven't tested every soy wax nor have I tested every brand of dye with every brand of soy wax, so I am completely open to seeing evidence to the contrary, but I'd have to see proof that highly dyed soy candles hold their color without frosting for at least 6 months and burn well without frosting all the way to the end of the container before I would be able to believe the claims. In addition, FOs play a HUGE role in promoting frosting in candles that cannot be ignored. So how many FOs will work in these high color saturation candles without promoting frosting?

I have never seen a truly black soy container candle. For those who say they achieve this, how do the candles burn? Do the candles frost at some point during their burn life? Do the candles remain BLACK black for 6 months without frosting?

While I can obtain some very vibrant and dark value colors with NatureWax C3 with the EVO & REACH liquid dyes that I use, frosting is frequently an issue to some extent, at some point, particularly over time. With certain FOs, the same candle with the same amount of dye will not only frost, within 48 hours it's completely frosted! I can back off on the dye to the point of extreme pastel and the wax still frosts because of the FO, not the dye. Varying pouring/cooling techniques and temps plays yet another part!

IMHO, one cannot simply say "I use thus and such dye and get perfect high saturation colors that never frost" - I just do not believe that is accurate. Making soy candles that are highly fragranced & colored that do not frost is NOT simply a function of the dye used! PLEASE someone show me evidence and data over time and usage that proves my suspicions wrong, because I desperately want very much to be wrong about this! Perhaps I am doing or using something wrong and I'd love to learn how others are obtaining these amazing results!

[barncat]

I agree. I don't beleive there is any way to achieve those primitive colors using soy. I've never seen one done with out adding paraffin.

[Candybee]

Hmmm... I use CB135 thats a preblended container wax. I stand by my statements that I get great color using the reddi-glo dye chips with and without the addition of parrafin. They are the only ones I can use without having frosting appear on my candles even after months of the candle being made. Perhaps its the combo of the additives in the wax blend. I just know it works for me. Perhaps you can test it out for yourself.

[carol k]

Hum, Just must be the way I make my candles. I use gb415 & I make black candles, with no frost. Of course, with no additives. Now bash away.

[Stella1952]

Now bash away.

No bashing implied nor intended. This is a discussion. I am simply asking questions because I want to learn. I am assuming that we are all making candles as products for sale to customers and not simply for personal use.

Achieving great color is not the total issue. Frosting diminishes & changes the color, paling it out to almost nothing if the frosting is bad enough. So here are my questions:

Does the wax hold its color without frosting? For how long?

Does the wax hold its color in all FOs without frosting? For how long?

Does the wax hold its color over time (I used 6 months as an arbitrary length of time) at what storage temp?

Does the wax hold its color on a retailer's shelves (shelf life)? For what length of time?

If I use enough dye to get a true black (30-32 drops/pp seems like an awful lot... 2-4X the amount recommended for the dyes I use), what is that going to do to the burn qualities of the candle? Does the black remain black when burned to the bottom of the container?

Those were the questions in my mind. I can post photos of my candles when first poured and I promise the color will appear vibrant and flawless. I certainly wouldn't post photos of the ones that the FO frosts badly even when made without dye 'cause those will never be sold to my customers! If I show you the same candles 3 months later, some of them will NOT look flawless - frosting will have occurred in some of them to a greater or lesser extent. If I show burn photos of all those candles, some of them will show some frosting as the candle is burned all the way to the bottom.

My point is that simply dying candles and having them look vibrant right after they are poured is NOT a difficult task - any number of colorants can be used! KEEPING that "look" and having a candle with good burn properties IS a challenge with soy wax that contains no paraffin.

Over time & testing with NatureWax C3, and observing other soy-based waxes I have seen posted in photos and in person, I have observed that using a minimal amount of dye allows the wax to be more stable (less frosting or structural/texture changes) over time, on the shelf, when burned, and with a wider selection of FOs, than when more dye is used. The pastel colors may be boring, but that is the compromise I have reached to balance ALL the factors above with the wax/system I use. I have seen little to make me think that this finding is markedly different with any other soy wax, but I haven't seen the candles of the folks reporting different results in this thread so I can't say for sure.

[samandkennasmom]

Hi!

Thankyou so much for all your responses, I to just want to learn. When I had mentioned that I use straight soy, I maybe should of said gb415. I have bought a box of 6006 and have been doing some testing with that, I think I will probably be more happy with that just because of the little bit I have tried with colors in soy, I just don't seem to be able to get "darker" colors I am wanting. I think I mentioned that I only want about 4-5 different colors, and only 8 different scents. I did email cc to ask her about the flutter dyes and crystal dyes. She had said that either would work but the flutter dyes were easier to work with and that I could use 3-4 flutters. The crystals use .25oz, I have tried the flutters with gb415 but I only used 2 so maybe they could be a little darker but still don't seem like what I want. I haven't tried them with the 6006 but I am going to in the next couple days. Any other thoughts would be awesome!! Thankyou all for your thoughts!

Hugs:yay:

Michele

[carol k]

I hope this works. The black candles have been poured since last June, Dark purple over a year. Now I'm tired of being called a liar. I to fell for the myth that pure soy (gb415 soywax) could not be dyed dark colors. It can, if you figure out the secret to it.

http://s972.photobucket.com/albums/ae207/tequila_019/Moms%20Candles/?action=view&current=100_1501.jpg

[carol k]

Lovely candles, BTW. How do they look when burning? Do they show any frosting then?

The black meltpool does go to a dark gray after it's set back up, no frosting.

[Candybee]

Here are a couple of pics of some candle collections. The deep brown/gingerbread and bright red/cinnamon candles in the middle pic I used 1 dye chip per lb for that color. ONE! The deep purple/black cherry I used 2 chips. Colors held up nice for months without fading or frosting. I do use UV inhibitor as I do a lot of outdoor shows. The lavender and pink grapefruit candles eventurally faded from the sun exposure. The others came out unscathed.

I love the dye chips so much I am also starting to use them to color my palm candles. I'll see if I can find some of those to post.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Candybee

[Candybee]

Sorry-- just realised I don't have any photos of the palm candles with the dye chip colors in them and they are already gone.

[carol k]

Lovely candles, Candlebee. It's sure nice to see I'm not the only one that can achieve dark, frost free colors.

[deb426]

Those are really pretty colors, Candybee.

[cybersix]

add the color before your fo. I'm sure I'll get slammed for saying that too.

I'm not going into the matter of the thread, and I'm not trying to stir the pot...I don't color my soy wax (I make tins, I don't see the point of coloring them).

But this caught my attention. I always add color before FO.

But not for some strange reason, it's a temperature related question, I add color after wax is melted so color dissolves well, and then FO, so the temp will go down a couple of degrees and I don't burn FO (obviously if the temp is too low none of the two will mix well).

So what would be the reason to do the opposite?

Thanks!

Edited March 11, 2010 by cybersix

[Candybee]

I also add color before adding FO. But that has to do with the dye chip and getting it completely dissolved and dispursed throughout the wax. Learned that the hard way.:rolleyes2

[topofmurrayhill]

Settle down folks. There is no secret. The way you get a lot of color is with a lot of dye. Period.

Typical colorants use a solid or liquid carrier to dilute the dye and also to help disperse it when the colorant is added to your wax. So if you need to put a lot of dye in your candles, you also also end up putting in a lot of whatever the carrier is (liquid solvent or various waxes and additives). That may affect your results in some bad way or it may not. Not all solid bases and not all solvents cause frosting.

With liquids, you could even maybe concentrate the color in a smaller amount of wax and heat it to evaporate some of the solvent. Otherwise the only way around it is to use dye powder. It's not just another form of colorant--it's the dye and nothing else. It's the stuff that colorants like liquid or solid dyes are made from.

The downside is that dye powder can be difficult to measure accurately for small batches, it floats around in the air and speckles things (including presumably the inside of you), and it can be difficult to fully disperse in your wax. Some colors dissolve more or less easily and others can be quite stubborn. Getting the wax very hot and using a stick blender can help. Really the best practice is to put the colored wax through a fine filter before using it, to catch any undispersed powder.

Edited March 12, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[Stella1952]

Thanks for the discussion about dyes, Top. While I am generally very satisfied with the COLORS I get from the liquid dye I use (EVO & REACH), for me, dying soy candles isn't ALL about intense color. There ARE issues with its use to which I have not found a reliable workaround. Until I do, I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot by loading up my wax with dye, but I'm also not willing to give up color in my candles.

Because of all the cudos about Reddig-Glo dye chips, I'm gonna go back and test some in my soy wax to see how they perform, ie. burn quality, frosting, etc. Perhaps they will perform more reliably with a larger range of FOs than the dye I am currently using, although I'll miss the artistic uses that liquid dye offers.

[lrbd]

I too make dark colors with soy ... somtimes they frost sometimes they don't . I use millcreek liquid dye which i love . I have purchased and tried liquid dyes from other places and I was not happy.I found no matter how much I added I wasn't getting what I wanted. I have never made black but have made other dark colors. Try the millcreek dyes .

May I add that sometimes when reading email, threads and blogs we can misunderstand or hear an attitude that really isn't there. The tone of emails blogs etc can really be taken wrong.

not to say that sometimes nasty is nasty but not always.

Peace