Tortoise Shell Palm Testing 2

[Meridith]

I can pour my wax in glass containers. Because of the steric and high temps I only do it occasionally. It looks fine but will shrink away slightly from the glass. I have tested several scents in the 12.25 status jar with good results. I think it is very hard to get a full meltpool with palm, so I burn the status much the same as my cylinders.

On early tests, I find if I double-wicked I did get a full meltpool, but the palm actually burned (scorched) and became a dark color. My hats off to the peeps who can get a full meltpool and not burn the wax. In Stella's defense, I do the wrecking after my candle has burned several days. I don't have to, but I don't want to waste any beautifully scented palm. To each his own. Carole

You wreck the candle after its burned? Can you explain? What you talk about sounds intriguing.

Up until recently, we never used steric and never had a candle not unmold. We never even had one that presented any kind of difficulty when unmolding; they've all just slid right our regardless of the wax we used. I started to add steric to see if it would help with those candles that we burned where the wick burned well but looked like it might be just a smidge too large and where wicking down looked like it might be too small.

Its nice to hear from others that are experienced with palm wax that palm does not necessarily require all this work that some seem to go through. Its been a nagging thought of mine that this just was not necessary and a candle can be poured and wicked without so much hassel. But I'm not sure about the air pockets because we seem to get them and we've tried the pouring and walking away too. Perhaps we'll have better luck with that method when we get a better grip on the proper wicking at all times rather than the hit and miss we are experiencing now. If it takes wreaking the candle, I'm willing to do it. However the wrecking seems to help and I actually find it a bit relaxing. Although I'm not sure I'll enjoy it so much when we are pouring more at one time. :rolleyes2

Edited March 8, 2010 by Meridith

[Stella1952]

Its nice to hear from others that are experienced with palm wax that palm does not necessarily require all this work that some seem to go through. Its been a nagging thought of mine that this just was not necessary and a candle can be poured and wicked with so much hassel.

It's more trouble to break every little thing down into words than it is to just do it. It SOUNDS like so much more than it really is. I find palm wax VERY easy with which to work and tons more forgiving than soy.

Although I'm not sure I'll enjoy it so much when we are pouring more at one time

I find it easier to make many at once than just one or two. By the time I've finished wrecking a dozen and a bunch of votives, it's time to start again. It becomes a production thing. Futzing around with only one or two gives me the heebie jeebies and I am more likely to wander off and forget what I'm doing.

Regarding stearic... I use triple-pressed palm stearic acid. All stearic acid is not derived from the same sources which may make a difference.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Stella1952

[bugtussle]

Yes, I can burn my pillars without the cylinder. They burn just fine. I just don't have the time to watch them every minute to see if they are about to have a blow-out. Many of my customers burn them as pillars. However, I don't ever recommend they do so without a plate/pillar holder beneath them. I also recommend no more than a 3-hr burn.

I do not care for pillars myself. Ten yrs ago, I set my Christmas Buffet table on fire because I let a pillar go over 3 hrs. I do not trust paraffin or soy or palm pillars to behave like they should.

People need to know there is an alternative with palm pillars and palm votives if tested

properly. This is my way!! Carole

Merdith, a pic is worth a thousand words. I'll take a few pics.

Edited March 8, 2010 by bugtussle
To add

[cybersix]

I don't know if Top will be upset because of us hijacking his thread. I hope not!

Stella, I missed it, or forgot it, life has taken me in other directions lately LOL, anyway if there's someone always willing to start again from zero it's me.

One thing I have plenty of is patience, and I never think I know it all.

So now the first tester is in the mold, poured at 200 and no insulation, I can start again from here.

I do believe anyway that palm stearic plays a big role. Carole uses it and as I noticed candles do not have voids. It's even dangerous to try to cut the shell that is forming, because it spits.

I don't have the technical explanation for this.

I still have cavities because I don't use stearic acid anymore, but then again... I'm ready to test again, now that I have my time back, because I'm curious and I alwasy tend to optimize what I do.

Will cut the tester at different heights, starting from the bottom, and see what's inside.

Thanks to everyone who's throwing an opinion here and there, this is how we learn.

Thanks!

[Meridith]

Between all the different ways everyone here uses to pour pillars, I'm sure we'll find our tried and true method as well. I've learned alot from these threads and from everyone's posts.

[Stella1952]

People need to know there is an alternative with palm pillars and palm votives if tested properly. This is my way!!

THANK YOU!!! ***blowing kisses to Carole***

None of us can make recommendations that will fit every scenario - Carole shares HER way; I share MY way, etc. I feel the same about burning open pillars - I have CATS! They are FLAMMABLE! I don't hover over candles! I light 'em and frequently wander off. I shelter my candles in hurricanes for safety. Unless one is right in my sight, I even burn containers in a hurricane. No one else in the whole wide world HAS to do this - nor do they HAVE to to get my candles to burn well - it's just the way works best and most safely for me!

By sharing our individual experiences and marveling at the diversity of them, maybe people will be encouraged to discover THEIR unique ways. While I can suggest things to people who are having difficulties, the bottom line is that I am not there doing the exact same things with the exact same materials under the exact same conditions. There is no ONE method nor "recipe" that works 100% of the time for everyone!

Will cut the tester at different heights, starting from the bottom, and see what's inside

Sabrina, may I suggest instead of cutting the candle horizontally, try cutting it vertically in half; then cut the halves vertically into quarters. THAT tells the story from top to bottom in a pillar.

[cybersix]

Uh oh good idea Stella, but I tried some minutes ago to cut a pillar since it's brittle it broke in some points leaving me with the doubt, was a little cavity or just wax that crumbled.. uhhhmmmmmmm

Really, I love to be here, it's always a mind challenge, other than a good crafting exercise!

[Candybee]

You know I never thought much about adding stearic as my pillars always slid right out of the molds with ease. I do know for a fact that I can and do get air pockets in my pillars without the stearic as I have cut a least a couple dozen over time to check them. I've seen air pockets at various levels and many around the wick.

And it didn't seem to matter what heating or pouring temp I tried the holes would still be there. I have heated as low as 185 and as high as 210 degrees and poured from 185 up to 200 degrees.

It is fairly hot in my workroom when I make candles as the meltor, candles cooling, etc heat up the room so its always 71 and upt to 80 degrees in my candlemaking room.

I am curious about how adding the stearic to my palm wax will effect it. Not for the release but for claims that it reduces air pockets? I am a bit skeptical that you can simply add stearic and eliminate air pockets altogether but I will give it a try when I get a chance.

[Stella1952]

am a bit skeptical that you can simply add stearic and eliminate air pockets altogether but I will give it a try when I get a chance.

The only palm wax I do NOT add TPP stearic acid to is Glass Glow. I have added 1 Tablespoonful per pound to all the different varieties of palm waxes I've used over the past 5 years and it has made no difference whatsoever in the formation of air pockets. If it diminished them, it certainly did not eliminate them! Just my 2¢...

[bugtussle]

For Meredith: pic 1, the sides of pillar have almost melted, pic 2, I just push the wax toward the middle and relight (I prefer to run a wipe and get the top all clean.) Pic 3 Before I found my jars, I always asked the customer to burn in one of these libbey bowls if they did not have a suitable pillar holder. Pic 4 These 3 candle remains have given me hours of burning pleasure, expecially the brown (Chocolate Rasp Truffle, BCN.) Wrecking means scraping the sides to the center.

I just don't like to waste the shell. I do believe in covering your candle when not burning to retain the scent, use gold lid. Carole

[Candybee]

This is what I do with my pillars. I wick them so they tend to burn down rather than leave a shell. I push the slim walls into the center so as not to waste any wax. Your pics look like my candles.

[Stella1952]

but I tried some minutes ago to cut a pillar since it's brittle it broke in some points leaving me with the doubt, was a little cavity or just wax that crumbled..

I might should have added "carefully" and "with a thin blade"... This is easiest with a still-warm pillar and a warm, thin knife, but because it's brittle, there's always the chance the whole thing will fracture, crumble and make a big mess. Perhaps a heated garrote would work best... Oh GOD!! Stella's talking about garrotting pillars now!!! *faint*:laugh2:

[Debbie73]

I might as well add my 2 cents. I just started making pillars last year and really love it. I do not add stearic acid to my pillars, I have never had a problem with the pillar coming out of the mold.

I, too heat the wax to 200 degrees, add the color then FO. I do heat the mold with the heat gun, pour the wax, but do not cover the mold. After it sets up, I wreck it with a bamboo skewer stick, then do a re-pour.

I always get a very pretty design with no problems, even mixing the waxes, they still turn out pretty. I also use the csn wicks, usually an 11 or 12.

I use a product that I found at Lowe's called Suretape. I use a 3 inch strip on the bottom and that is it. I have never ever had one leak from using this one strip. I don't have to mess with the putty stuff anymore and I am a happy camper!!

I think I understand that Top is trying different ways to make a palm wax candle. We all get in our comfort zones....sometimes it is fun to work outside of the box....nothing wrong with that!

[Stella1952]

Great photos, Carole! I don't consider the shells "wasted" because I can relight them with an electric (battery) tea light and enjoy the pleasing design of them for years after the candle is gone. I get a LOT of bang for my buck out of them! I have quite a shell collection of different sizes, designs and colors. They look very lovely when lit up all over the place. I enjoy them particularly in the summertime when a flame adds unwelcome heat to the room. Best thing is I don't have to worry about them burning the place down!

Ahhh, "wrecking." When someone coined that term a fw months ago, it was used to describe breaking up the forming air pockets inside a cooling candle, not scraping the sides into the middle as the pillar burns. This should really add to the confusion!

When I don't burn for a shell, I let the pillar burn as it does and only break off pieces to put into the center to burn if they crack and threaten to break away to the outside. I don't pile up the broken pieces in the center as pictured. If I keep the heat centered, the tops just get thinner & thinner, weeping into the melt pool until at the end, there is only a disc with a thin, short wall. I either save the remaining wax to make a nice chunky pillar for myself or I melt it down to pour into votives for myself or I put it into a tart warmer. When I get tired of a shell or break it, it is reused as above, too. Nothing goes to waste here either. These are all nitsy little personal "candlemaker" ways and not practical for customers (except perhaps melting used wax in tart warmers).

Speaking of customers, our peculiar ways may or may not work for the average customer, so I try to gear my production candles toward their end of the game.

I recommend glass bowls instead of plates for burning pillars in the open; I don't recommend spike-type pillar holders; I recommend burning in a draft-free area away from combustibles, children and pets; I recommend burning in hurricanes for safety; I recommend keeping the melt pool (or heat of the flame) of the candle centered; I recommend burning for no more than 1 hour per inch of diameter of the candle at a session; I recommend trimming the wick to 1/4" before each burn. I design my pillars to perform well under all of those conditions. I make the distinction between candles which are wicked to leave a shell (everlasting-type) and those that are wicked to self-consume.

Then I test the candles some more, ignoring most of those instructions (can't let curtains or a cat catch on fire no matter how much they beg for it!) to see if they are going to perform reasonably safely if someone does not read/follow the instructions.

More on adding stearic acid... For single color pillars from aluminum molds, the stearic probably isn't needed for release, BUT when pouring layered or tiltie pillars, demolding gets a lot tighter...

[topofmurrayhill]

As far as I'm concerned, this particular wax is a snap. You pour it according to the supplier's instructions, cool it sitting out on a tabletop, and it works. The voids don't concern me; other waxes can form hidden cavities as well. Making sure those are exposed by the end of the process so that they can be filled with a second pour is a common procedure that I have no objection to.

At this point I'm trying different wick types to see which I'm most interested in focusing on. After that I might get more into what size works best. However, each time I make a new candle there is an opportunity to have it answer some additional question, as long as that doesn't interfere with the main purpose of the tester. That's why I slow-cooled one of them just to see what effect that would have. I also dug out the voids at the bottom to see what they were like, and they turned out to be interesting and freaky spirals. I also pretty much determined that it's going to happen no matter what, which is good to know. If I have enough wax, I will try one with some stearic acid in it, again just to see what happens. However, I can't do that at the same time as the wick stuff.

One important thing that some of your conversation underscores is that you can't tell people what palm wax is about or how to use it just on the basis of the products you have experience with. CandleScience and IGI sell one set of waxes. Some suppliers sell wax from other manufacturers. Most people don't have in-depth experience with more than a few materials. This thread is about only one. If I try the CS/IGI feather palm tomorrow, that'll be a different thread with different conclusions.

Mainly, I'm trying something new for fun and sharing the results. I know that people like testing threads and burn photos. Nowadays there can be a little too much "tell" around here and not enough "show." So I hope some folks find it interesting or possibly helpful to see me f*ck around with this stuff.

Edited March 8, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[bugtussle]

Stella, have you ever tried to pour a pillar and walk away (no wrecking?) Then test it?

I agree with Cyber's thoughts By its nature, the inside of a palm or votive is crumbly. It is not solid like Soy or Paraffin. The only hard part is the outside where it meets the mold or the meltpool area after it has cooled. I think the wax is more cellular and as it melts it becomes hard. When you talk about voids or caverns, are you sure it isn't just compressed wax from your cut? Carole

[Stella1952]

Stella, have you ever tried to pour a pillar and walk away (no wrecking?) Then test it?

Yep. Had lots of air pockets. It was unacceptable from a safety standpoint.

When we started pouring palm pillars, there was no discussion about this. We found our own solutions to the air trapping about the same time we found the pouring instructions on Lipidchem's site.

When you talk about voids or caverns, are you sure it isn't just compressed wax from your cut?

No, Carole. It's not from cutting. Did you see Top's excavation above? If you poke in a pillar with a bamboo skewer, you can feel the voids (harder & softer areas) and simply excavate to them. If you can manage to cut one lengthwise without crushing it, the voids are quite visible. This cavitation or air trapping or whatever the "official" term for it is, is well-known by the oleochemists. I did not invent it - others are not imagining this! PLEASE check out the links provided!

This happens BECAUSE of the large crystal patterns. You will not see this as much when palm wax is poured at low temps where it does not form the large, showy crystals, which are only one of the crystal phases palm wax can form (same as soy, BTW). A friend explained this to me via a discussion of thermodynamics, but I am not conversant enough in it to reexplain. Heat = larger crystals, dissolved air fills voids formed by the crystals, etc. You can FEEL the space between the crystal formations on the outside or top of a pillar. Dissolved air in the wax collects in those spaces as they form. As the candle cools, the air is trapped there (air trapping). That's why it feels soft in there, particularly when the candle is newly poured and the crystals have not yet had a chance to harden. When we poke in there as the crystals are forming, the bubbles collecting and popping to gether to form larger bubbles are released to the surface. When the wax is remelted (at a lower temp), the air is released and the wax reforms into a denser, smaller crystal phase.

The inside of soy is the same - the crystals are simply much finer & microscopic - except when the larger phase frost crystals form which also trap tiny bubbles of air. This is not opinion so much as it is science!

The outside is different from the inside because it forms against a hard, slick surface, same as concrete, for example. If you pour into a paper cup or toilet paper tube, for example, the surface is much softer and rougher.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Stella1952

[bugtussle]

Top, so sorry we stole your thread. I found Tortoise shell to burn almost identical to my palm, just different visible appearance. Thks for the testing. Carole

[topofmurrayhill]

You get the air pockets because the solid wax takes up less space than the liquid wax. However, it's either a liquid or a hard crystalline solid with no in-between. It can bend a bit when it's a mixture of the two, but mostly what it can do as it sets up is suck in air to fill the empty space.

From what you folks are saying, it sounds like adding stearic acid to some palm candles somehow gives the pillar more of an ability to shrink in on itself instead of sucking in air. Since palm wax is a blended product, the manufacturer could do that too, but they presumably prefer to sell a wax that makes pillars with straight sides rather than one that doesn't form cavities.

[bugtussle]

I officially give up! I have MAGIC palm wax, no voids or craters, spirals or etc. I'll just continue making and selling my MAGIC pillars.

:tiptoe::tiptoe::tiptoe: Carole

[lrbd]

So where are we here? have you been able to burn today . I'm getting lost. sorry I can't keep up

[topofmurrayhill]

So where are we here? have you been able to burn today . I'm getting lost. sorry I can't keep up

I squeezed in another burn of CSN 11 and I have two new wick testers in the mold. I'll have to start a new thread yet again after what happened to this one today.

[lrbd]

I squeezed in another burn of CSN 11 and I have two new wick testers in the mold. I'll have to start a new thread yet again after what happened to this one today.

I'm sorry I have to go back and look I don't even remember the CSN11 burn . I am interested in that one for sure. Going back and taking a peek now

I found it . it's the ugly duckling

Edited March 9, 2010 by lrbd

[Judy, USMC]

I squeezed in another burn of CSN 11 and I have two new wick testers in the mold. I'll have to start a new thread yet again after what happened to this one today.

And don't forget the first one that you started a few days ago too, Top. I was so hoping that I would be able to bookmark one thread and have all your testing results in one place.

The most interesting information, to me, is the logical steps you are taking. Hopefully the third time will be a charm!

[Stella1952]

Sorry for participating in the hijack. Have requested that the mods remove my posts in this thread. :lipsrseal