Wick up, ya think?

[inherowndominion]

I'm using a parasoy blend, my throw is pretty decent, everything seems to be going well BUT...there's hang up on one side still. I've tried everything from twisting the wick to putting it a little off center (that was a disaster). I'm wondering if I should just wick up? I'm SO afraid wicking up will cause more soot or cause my nearly perfect wax depth to be too much!

Although my blend is mostly paraffin, I add some soy (20-30% or so), and I know soy has a deep melt depth than paraffin, would it be true then that a parasoy blend would have a deeper melt depth?

Anyhow, how far through the candle do you usually go before you decide if the hang up is gonna go away?

I'm using 16 oz jars, I'm on my 12th burn (3 hours) and it's not quite half way through the jar and there's still a little hang up on one side. Should I just keep burning or you think customers won't stand for hang up that far through a candle?

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone else had this problem: On some of my candles, the throw seems to get WEAK the further down the candle it goes. I even had one completely stop throwing half way through. And I DO mix quite a bit to incorporate a fragrance (a full 2 minutes with a blender if it's electric, 3 minutes if it's by hand with a slotted spoon). Anyone else had that problem?

Ok, too many questions, sorry! I tend to get on a rant! Just feelin' so frustrated over this!

[Candybee]

You should test burn the candle to the end. If there is a little bit of hangup thats not considered bad. Probably you will notice that the hangup you have now will continue to be consumed as the candle burns down.

If not and you still think you want to try to wick up than go ahead and see if you get a better burn.

I use a parasoy blend and I get a melt pool very similar to straight soy. Its deep about 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

Are you using an electric blender to stir your fragrance oil into your wax? Thats gonna incorporate a lot of air into your wax that may cause you some problems. Best to use a spoon or stick to blend.

[Stella1952]

Testing all the way down is soooo important so that you can really evaluate how the candle's environment changes and how the entire system works from start to finish.

I'm SO afraid wicking up will cause more soot or cause my nearly perfect wax depth to be too much!

There is no "perfect" melt pool depth! Paraffin often produces a little more black soot than soy, so when you use parasoy you are trading one set of difficulties for another. Finding the right balance of all factors is a challenge. Sure, you may wick up to clean the container sides, but then the container may become too hot or the temp may become too hot to throw well or the soot rears its ugly head... The candle's temp is cooler to begin with in a container, but as it burns down, it becomes hotter, unless the candle is slightly underwicked to begin with, then the poor thing may be drowning and gasping down toward the bottom and not putting out enough heat to keep the throw it had previously. Some FOs are harder to burn, so way down in those deep 16 oz. containers this may cause wick problems. One size does not fit all! Your difficulties may be from several causes and not just wick size...

Anytime you have hangup on one side in a container, particularly from the middle down, it's because the heat in the container is not evenly distributed - the area of hangup is a cooler spot. Sometimes simply turning the container every so often as it burns will help even out the heat in the container so that hangup will melt. Twisting wicks, off-center placement, adjusting the position of the wick to keep the heat centered, etc. ARE ways of dealing with this that work for many folks. Big ol' deep container candles nearly always melt slightly unevenly, so you have to find a method of compensating for this. What works for one person in their candle system may not work for you in yours, so just experiment until you find that balance that gets the results you want.

You did not mention the style/diameter of your container (there's lots of 16 oz. jars out there...) nor the type/size wick you are using nor the amount of FO you are using - that all matters, so if you can supply a little more specific information about what you are using and how much, perhaps we can offer more specific suggestions to assist you.

Unless one is whipping wax for a special effect, I agree there's never any need for an electric device to stir in FO, etc. What you do by hand is plenty sufficient so long as you employ the right gentle stirring technique. HTH

[topofmurrayhill]

Some hangup halfway through the candle isn't a problem at all. Your melt pool depth is good, you have a nice flame, you have no soot. Sounds pretty much perfect so far. Keep going.

As far as the decreasing throw is concerned, I have heard people complain about that with soy candles but I haven't run into it. It has nothing to do with your stirring; you could stir a lot less than you do and it wouldn't matter. It might be that the supplemental soy is screwing up something with the blend and/or the candle might need to cool faster (or be poured cooler) to remain more uniform. If something separates in a large candle, it's probably as things start turning from liquid to solid.

Edited February 21, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[inherowndominion]

Thanks Stella and Top, you guys are the greatest!!!!!!!

Just FYI I'm using a 16oz straight jelly jar and a 105 wick. I'm using a variety of Fo's. I did batch A, B, C, and D and so on. Here's how I did the batches:

Batch A consists of hyacinth whereas 1a is 1.5 oz pp with 104, 2a 1.5oz pp with 105, 3a is 1 oz pp with 104, 4a is 1oz pp with 105 and so on and so forth. Each batch is a different FO, and I'm changing the wick size and % so I can get an accurate measure of each one.

I'm testing in different scents using that method: 1 candle that's 104, one that's 105, and in varying degrees of FO, but keeping everything else the same. God I hope that makes sense.

I know a lot of people think it's really wasteful to do it that way, but I like burning them side by side or one right after another for comparison sake.

The FO's are all very different categories, so I can kind of get a feel of when I need to wick up.

As far as having NO soot, I WISH!!!!

Even with the parasoy blend, I'm getting soot. Soot, soot, soot, it's the bane of my existence! Now, I will say that, to me anyway, the sooting is tolerable. I think I AM learning that soot is the nature of the beast with paraffin and this type of candle jar. It likes to create a little air tunnel and the soot hangs up on the shoulder and the rim as it burns down. But, for how far the candle has burned it's very little soot. I think once they are ready to be tested by people other me (I have testers lined up) I'll know whether it truly is "acceptable" soot or not.

Now, I know it's not PC to say "Acceptable" level of soot, and I know I wouldn't tolerate soot in a wide mouth jar, but with these jars, and with everyone I've spoken to, I have yet to meet someone who uses this type of jar, and uses paraffin, that DOESN'T have soot. I swear we should start a support group!

I know going 100% soy it won't soot (black, anyway), but I'm having trouble with that wick too. The flame is just way too big on my soy candles still. Yet, I wick down, and it drowns out or has no throw whatsoever. Such is the case with my EZ soy...1212 wicks the flame is ridiculously high, great throw though. With a 126 wick, the flame is perfect, but it nearly tunnels and it's super weak. And I cured both of them the same amount of time, poured at the same temp, and used the same FO and same %, so I know it's the wick. I'm adding the FO at about 170 (I've tried lower and it just doesn't throw AT ALL then) and pour at about 100 when it's nice and slushy, otherwise I get crystals real bad

(effect of the UV inhibitor or the dye, but the lower pouring temp seems to help alot)

Oh boy! I'm on a roll tonight huh???

Thanks for the tips and the encouragement too, it means the world to me. Sometimes when I see it's not going right day after day, batch after batch, I wanna throw my hands up. But hearing from you guys that I'm, at the very least, headed in the right direction, is enough to keep me going! Thank you!!!!

As far as whipping, ok, I'll stop doing that. I was using a little mini frother like you use for milk, thinking at least then I KNOW it would incorporated. Guess that was a bad idea huh?

Do you think that might be why the throw seems to get weaker as the candle burns down?

[Stella1952]

the soot hangs up on the shoulder and the rim as it burns down

Yep. Shoulders are a problem 'cause they are gonna catch every particle that touches 'em... This happens with soy, too, but not as bad or noticeable as with paraffin.

Soot, soot, soot, it's the bane of my existence!

Come away from the dark side of the force to veggie wax! :laugh2:

Do you think that might be why the throw seems to get weaker as the candle burns down?

Nope. I don't think that has anything to do with that particular issue.

Your testing procedure may be tedious, but it's meticulous so you should get good data once you correlate all your results...

I do it slightly differently. I use 1 oz/pp no matter what... I use the size wick that I have found works most of the time in that particular container. From there, I let the candle cure for 5-7 days before I test the candle. Most of the time, the wicking is right on target. If the HT isn't what I want, but the candle is burning well, if I REALLY like the fragrance, I might add a little more to see if it makes a difference. But usually if it burns well but doesn't throw well at 1 oz/pp, I move on to one of the thousands of other FOs I want to sample! If it's something a customer REALLY wanted, I might try the same fragrance from a couple of different suppliers.

With your soy, have you tried CDs or CDNs? They work real well with soy waxes...

[topofmurrayhill]

Yep. Shoulders are a problem 'cause they are gonna catch every particle that touches 'em... This happens with soy, too, but not as bad or noticeable as with paraffin.

Really? Tell us more about your results with soy vs. paraffin.

[Stella1952]

Really? Tell us more about your results with soy vs. paraffin

Ummmm, Top... I'm 57 years old - I HAVE burned a lot of paraffin candles in my day although I do not make them! I also have many friends who burn paraffin and I have eyes that still work... this is called "observation." Besides the fact that it's common sense, which, while apparently out of style, is still employed by some folks... :rolleyes2 Edited February 21, 2010 by Stella1952

[radellaf]

My own observations, from much less than 40+ years of container burning...

I get less soot with Soy, but that's been entirely because no matter how I (or the commercial company) wick, I get 1/4-1/2" flames out of Soy (GB464, or CBA wax with CSN, LX, or ECO) even after first lighting. _May_be_ at the very bottom the flame with get enthusiastic enough to flicker and throw a wee bit of soot.

I guess that's fine if it's the nature of soy, but I may be unusual in that I want a significant amount of _light_ from all my candles. If my soy had the 3/4"-1&1/4" flame height (flickering) I get from paraffin (4630, HTP or LX), then I'd bet I'd get just as much soot.

Initial lighting is the worst, if I don't trim it short, pillar or container unless using LX-14 or smaller. Last inch of wax also gives the highest, flickering flame. Commercial paraffin 16-20oz jars soot unless I use candle cappers. Then, if I trim before lighting, no probs.

[inherowndominion]

I actually notice the flame is HUGE on my soy candles, much larger than my paraffin or parasoy blends. That's a huge part of the problem with soy candles for me, everything else I've got down pat pretty much.

With the same jar (16oz straight sided 3" diameter) a 1212 seems way too big, and a 126 is too small (no throw, tunnel). The throw is great on a 1212 but the flame is ridiculously huge.

So, Stella, if I were to go with CD or CDN's for the soy, what size would you recommend starting with for this jar?

[inherowndominion]

Oh and PS: My parasoy blends that I mentioned above are now a little more than half way, and the wax still hasn't caught up on any of them. Super UG!

[Stella1952]

So, Stella, if I were to go with CD or CDN's for the soy, what size would you recommend starting with for this jar?

Just almost completely guessing, 'cause I dunno what kind of soy you are using, but I'd probably try a CDN 12 and see what happens... I use a CDN 12 or 14 in my wide-mouth canning jars, which are a little wider... HTH

My parasoy blends that I mentioned above are now a little more than half way, and the wax still hasn't caught up on any of them. Super UG!

Well, hell's bells... Just keep on burnin' and post some photos is you can so we can see how much hangup you end up with and maybe someone will suggest a size that might work mo' better... Don't give up yet!! Wait until the way-more-to-love lady sings...

Edited February 22, 2010 by Stella1952

[lsbennis]

When I used 100% soy I had no problem getting black soot on my jars if I didn't trim the wicks or burned in a draft. I don't neccessarily believe at least from my experience with soy that you do not get black soot. :rolleyes2

Actually if I do not trim and burn in a draft I can get black soot from any wax and I can get soy or paraffin to burn clean with proper candle care, my candles do require some care on the consumers end, if they choose not to do that then they may end up with some soot...but that is just how it is for me...

[inherowndominion]

I'm no good at pictures, so I took 4 of them. Of course, I didn't think about it until after, but there is something black behind the jar, so just for reference, the black part isn't all soot LOL!!! There is only some soot on the rim and near the shoulder, but you can see through it, it's not nearly as bad as it might look (note to self, next time take picture in front of something WHITE! DUH!)

The first one: You can see the hang up on one side. I tried turning it, that didn't work.

The second: they are all the same candle, pics taken at the same time. The melt depth on this was a little over 1/4" when I measured, but it looks bigger doesn't it? It's got a soy blend, so I expect the MD to be a little higher, but it really wasn't but again, you can see the hang on the side

The third one:, from the top, that it's more wax hang up than it looks like when you see it from the side:

And one last one, you can kinda see the soot on the jar

Ok, so I hope that helps explain what's going on. From the notes I've taken on the candle, this was the 16th-3 hour burn. It's burned essentially the same all the way through, though has gathered a little soot along the way and, obviously, the hang up doesn't seem to be catching up really. The throw is great though!

As far as "it ain't over til the more to love lady sings" LOLOL! STELLA!!! LOL I love that, I'm gonna use that line and pay you royalties. I'm not a skinny-mini by any means, and lemme tell you, as I get older, I'm not sure if I'm getting really "more to love" as much as it seems gravity is starting to take over.

Edited February 22, 2010 by inherowndominion
Didn't realize I posted the pics so large AND posted thumbnails, sorry! Still gettin' the hang of the pictures thing!

[topofmurrayhill]

Doesn't really look like that much hangup for only a 3 hour burn. The reason it's stubborn is not only that the wick is curling, but also that the hot air currents will go more towards the side of the container the wick is closest to. If you offset the wick a bit, you compensate for the curl, shift the air currents, and expose the tip of the wick more (which helps gunk burn off and not accumulate).

[Stella1952]

Good photos! Some straight down woulda been nice...

I have three thoughts. The last one is what I'm goin' with...

1. You may just need to wick up one.

2. The MP is slightly off center, meaning the HEAT isn't centered in the container so it hangs up on the cool side. Since it's been that way for a while, it isn't gonna resolve itself real quickly!

3. That hangup is TRYING to melt. The candle is only a smidge over halfway burned. I think it may catch up by the end. KEEP BURNING!

If the HT is great, I wouldn't change a thing. If the HT is only so-so, maybe wick up one and see what happens.

I'm gonna use that line and pay you royalties

I cannot accept the royalty check - I stole that from MySpace profiles where people who are overweight describe their body type as "more to love." I'm headed in the other direction - "less to like." :laugh2:

gravity is starting to take over

Whether thick or thin, GRAVITY is #1 on my sh*t list. It's an UGLY, SNEAKY, INSIDIOUS physical force that SHOULD have been on the warning label... oh yeah, that's right... we didn't COME with warning labels... :undecided Oh, hell. Scr*wed again... :laugh2:

[inherowndominion]

Thank you THANK you for the words of encouragement you guys!

I will keep burning and keep posting pictures.

I did try moving the wick a little bit in the jar (I'm using a wick setter so generally it's perfectly centered) and that really didn't seem to help, but maybe I gotta try again. Maybe I'm "doing it wrong". It seems that happens a lot with me and candles!

BUT, I believe, and you all can correct me if I'm wrong, that HTP's tend to curl to the left, correct? So, in theory, if I set it off a bit to the right, perhaps it'll have less hang up? Do I have that right?

The hot throw IS amazing. My house is setup so the kitchen and living room are only seperated by one wall, and that wall has two door ways. The front door of the house is in the living room.

I had it going about an hour when I left the house, and the timer had 30 minutes when I walked in and that scent slapped me in the face in the living room and it was burning in the kitchen. It's a floral scent, so it's not "I'm gonna throw up" strong, but it's pretty darn strong. Let's just say I was really happy with it.

If I DO wick up, it'll be the next size, to a 126. Let's hope that doesn't happen, huh?

I was wondering, let's say it DOES catch up as it burns down, how do you think customers will take that? I can hear the emails and phone calls flooding in now that it's "NOT BURNING RIGHT" or whatever. The wick isn't drowing, it's going really good, but I really don't want to risk p***ing off my customers either. Have you guys had problems with that?

As far as soot. It's gonna soot. At 3 hours, it's freaking sooting, and it's the freaking jar, and too freaking bad LOL It's not ALOT of soot, it's a pretty minimal amount, and it seems like there is just nothing I can do but junk the jar.

It doesn't happen with a wide mouth, and I have a zillion of the jars, so I'm gonna sell them that way once they are tested, tested and tested some more. And if my testers complain about the soot, well then, I'll run all the jars over with a truck and be done with it. But I don't know yet, so we'll see.

I tested a "Y" candle (yes I ventured into their evil store and bought one of their evil candles) and it sooted. So there! LOL Once these jars are gone though (I'll label them limited edition or something), I'm switching to a wide mouth or a smaller jar. Something WITHOUT shoulders *growls* But I'm bound and determined to defeat these stupid jars!

And Stella ROFLMAO! I was actually helping a friend of mine on his dating site profile (I don't envy him) and there was that option of "more to love"!

And gravity. Gravity is an evil thing, evil evil thing.

Alright, since there are women on this board, I'm gonna tell you a story. And I'm so sorry this is SO OT, but it's worth being told. I'm attempting to liberate women everywhere as I have been liberated! LOL

I almost died when I went to my "female" doctor (ok, HOLY OT now, huh?) and in discussing breast cancer and whatnot, we starting talking about bras. I'm a *clears throat and looks around* top..heavy...kind of girl (that's a nice way to say it huh) and I made a joke that as I get older, the girls seems to "migrating south", they *used* to be inclined to face north-ish if not straight forward. He told me that UNDERWIRES make the girls head south FASTER! HELLO?!?!?! Wish someone would have told me that at 15! He explained the reason why, and you wouldn't think it makes sense but it does, but I don't want to go into it since I think I've probably already offended somebody telling the story at all! But, basically, he was right. 1 year underwire free turned out to be like having a lift without the surgery.

Underwires and gravity....it's all their fault! It has nothing to do with age or diet or excercise, I'm convinced, we are all just helpless victims!

Now that I've probably just completely embarassed myself, I'm gonna shut up.

[topofmurrayhill]

I did try moving the wick a little bit in the jar (I'm using a wick setter so generally it's perfectly centered) and that really didn't seem to help, but maybe I gotta try again. Maybe I'm "doing it wrong". It seems that happens a lot with me and candles!

BUT, I believe, and you all can correct me if I'm wrong, that HTP's tend to curl to the left, correct? So, in theory, if I set it off a bit to the right, perhaps it'll have less hang up? Do I have that right?

Positioning the wick might help you a bit with the soot. There seems to be more tendency to smoke when the air currents go in the same direction as the curl. You want to get the air going the opposite way, but twisting doesn't give you that control.

With the wick is offset properly, it will look a little off center before the candle is lit, but the burn will look more centered than it does now. HTP curls the same way as all other flat-braided wicks--towards the side that looks like this:

^

^

^

^

The bottom line about hangup is that customers only have the right to complain, in some cases, when there's too much at end. The idea that the glass has to be clean all the way down is a pernicious old obsession of the board that keeps getting passed down. There is an overwicking tradition here; don't let it seep into your brain.

The fact that the hangup is lopsided isn't something terrible. In the long you would want to improve that, and you will if you want to. It can take a long time to work out all the details. You can't expect to pour your first tester and be selling the world's most amazing candles in just a couple of months.

[lsbennis]

Positioning the wick might help you a bit with the soot. There seems to be more tendency to smoke when the air currents go in the same direction as the curl. You want to get the air going the opposite way, but twisting doesn't give you that control.

With the wick is offset properly, it will look a little off center before the candle is lit, but the burn will look more centered than it does now. HTP curls the same way as all other flat-braided wicks--towards the side that looks like this:

^

^

^

^

This is why I use zinc wicks...lol...plus they just seem to work better in my wax blend. Keep testing you will eventually find something that works for you.

[inherowndominion]

Thanks again guys! I've been burning, and it's pretty much the same, but we will see! I'm going to try to off center the wick again and see if that helps any. At the same time I'm gonna wick up in another test candle, just in case.

It's a pain because they are parasoy, so I cure them. 2 weeks. Ugh.

Top, I understand this takes a whole lot of patience, and this is certainly NOT my first tester. I've been doing this for quite some time (it's gotta be a year now), and I believe I'm on my second 50 pound box of this wax and my 4th 50 pound box of soy wax (this doesn't count the waxes I've tried and didn't like) just used for testing. I'm very meticulous and try to be scientific about the whole thing, which why I've probably blown so much money on testing! I do reuse the jars though.

I've tried, so far, all appropriate sizes of zinc (I didn't like zinc, it seemed to soot more for me?), HTP, and LX so far. I'm gonna try the CD & CDNs next.

It IS fun, and exhausting. I can't wait til I have that glowing moment where I finally, FINALLY, get one (just one!) that works the way I want it to!!!

[radellaf]

I actually notice the flame is HUGE on my soy candles, much larger than my paraffin or parasoy blends. That's a huge part of the problem with soy candles for me, everything else I've got down pat pretty much.

How strange, well, goes to show how differently things work for each of us. However, main cause is probably that I have never tried to make container candles that deep. Partly, because I haven't seen any that burned all that well without a lot of trimming, soot wiping, and wick re-positioning... capper helps with the flickering and reduces soot, but still. And, I've never seen one that large with that little "hang". Usually there is hang most of the way around. Long as it's throwing scent well I'd be happy, but here's hoping your efforts get you perfection

FWIW, here's a "big" soy flame for me:

CBA, 12oz cube, 6% FO, twin CSN-12

Same jar with LX-20 and 4630, massive 2"+ sooting flame unless trimmed very short between lights. LX-16 or 18=tunnel.

[inherowndominion]

Thanks!!!! I'm happy to hear that really isn't that much hang, but yeah, the soot...sooooooooo annoying, but there's absolutely nothing I can do. I'm still burning the parasoy, so we'll see, it hasn't quite caught up yet....here's to hoping! I really, really, really, really don't wanna wick up. Really. LOL

My soy flame is always so darn BIG and I can't figure out why. I'm gonna take Stella's suggestion and try CDN's because the 1212 is TORCHING. I'll have to post a pic of it when I burn one. But when I wick down, WAY too much hang and no throw.

I'm so never using these jars again.

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I can get smooth sided wide mouth 16 oz jars? I love the look of them, but really am not happy with the shoulders. I don't wanna use the regular mason jars cause I'm not a big fan of having to do hang tags or lid labels

[Circle]

Try wick down, IMO it could eliminate the sooting issue. You have hang up on one side, but need to burn still for many hours. The hang up should burn away even with a smaller wick.