4627 & HTP wicks

[inherowndominion]

I made two test candles with HTP 104 wicks and 4627 at about 1oz ppw of FO. I made lemon sugar and baby hugs. Used 2 drops of color for each. I'm using 16oz jelly jars, smooth.

They came out looking awesome, but it's not getting a full melt pool even after 5 hours. I lit them again this morning, same thing. The lemon sugar isn't throwing at all (could be the FO? good in CP, but it's pretty light in the candle), the baby hugs is throwing ok, but there is hang on the sides of the jars.

I have 1212's here, but I think that would just be TOO big, what do you guys think?

I ordered 105's and 126's, but they are going to take a bit to get here. I'm wondering if it's even worth trying to test the 1212's. That seems awful big to me and I can't even imagine the soot that's gonna give off!

Any thoughts? Thanks guys!

[Trappeur]

I use a 126 in the 16oz jelley jars.....but then again I don't use your wax.

Trappeur

[samandkennasmom]

Hi,

I use the htp 105 for my jj..

Hugs

Michele

[inherowndominion]

Thanks you guys!! Well, I burned my one candle for about 10 total hours so far. I noticed once it got down an inch or so into the jar, it had a full melt pool. Maybe it's the shape of the jar? I saw somewhere on the board someone had posted that it's normal not to have a full melt pool on the first burn because likelyhood is then the jar would be too hot. Any thoughts?

At first I thought for sure the HTP 104 was going to be too small, but now I'm wondering. If hang is normal in the first hours of burning a candle, then the 104's might be big enough. I certainly don't want the candle getting too hot.

The throw seemed great, until I let it burn overnight (trying to do the torture test thing), then it started to smell more like burning wax than the FO (baby hugs)? Anyone else ever had that happen, or more importantly, know WHY that could have happened? I suspect it's the wax or maybe the FO didn't mix in evenly.

Also, on a weird note, the blue colored wax turned a little yellow, but just where it melted (about 1/4"-1/2" deep). Is that more 4627 problems?

There is some soot in the jar and it DID mushroom, ugh, I've NO idea how to stop the mushroom no matter how I try and try. These are my first test candles with this wax, but not my first candles ever, and I've never been able to get rid of the mushroom. That's SO FRUSTRATING!

I'm not sure if there's any "Acceptable" level of soot when it comes to paraffin? I tried to take a picture but the soot doesn't wanna show up on camera LOL Do you guys tolerate any soot at all? I'm just trying to get a general guideline here.

The wick also seems a little off center in the jar, even though I'm sure looked centered when I poured and once the jar was cool, like it's not staying in place. Is there a trick for that or something?

I'm going to burn it all the way down and see how it goes...thanks for all your support you guys!

[topofmurrayhill]

I can't make recommendations for this exact scenario, but I noticed nobody replied to your last post so here are some comments that I hope will help.

Normal test burns are 3 to 4 hours. Power burns are 8 hours. You shouldn't really do both with one candle.

Initially you want to find the smallest HTP size that works well with burns that are on the shorter side. In this case we would typically burn the candle all the way down in 3 hour sessions and look for a wick that doesn't leave too much wax hung up on the glass.

You might be able to decide that a wick isn't working well without burning the candle all the way down, but don't be too quick to jump to conclusions. You don't have to get a full melt pool in the upper part of the candle. It's very useful to find a wick that doesn't soot at the bottom of the candle and you never know unless you get there. By that point you may find that a lot of the hangup melts down.

Since we are testing shorter burns at this point, it's better for a little wax to be left on the glass than to have a film of soot on the glass. With any luck you can find a wick that burns cleanly and uses up the wax, then make additional candles to test longer burns.

Besides testing different wicks, you may find it helpful sometimes to adjust the amount of fragrance to get the best balance of burn quality and scent throw. The fragrance can affect things like hangup, sooting and mushrooming.

There are various causes for discoloration and it can happen with all different waxes. It's hard to know exactly what you are seeing, but it might very well be the fragrance oil. There are definitely some that like to turn blue candles greenish.

Edited December 23, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[Trappeur]

Hello Inherown,

You said you are using a 16oz. jelley jar with a 104 wick. Is that a 16oz regular mouth jar or widemouth jar? Or is that a 6oz jar? I'm assuming it is the regular mouth if you are using a 104 wick. You mentioned the 1212 wick. That sure seems like it would be a torch if it is a 16oz jar. If you are using the wide mouth jar, now then it would seem ok for that wick. In the 8oz short squatty mason with a wide mouth jar I use a 1212 wick for me.

I wanted to add to that if you have found a wick that works well, has a full melt pool,doesn't soot, but doesn't have a strong throw, it could possibly be that the fragrance you are burning is just not a strong throwing scent or maybe it just doesn't work that well with your wax.

When I'm testing a wick I do both types of burns, 3 and 4 hour burns and then power burns. When I'm doing a shorter burn, I look for my candle to get a full melt pool in the designated time it should hopefully get one. If it doesn't on the first burn, I'll generally go no more than maybe 2 more test burns on the shorter burn, because in my mind I think of how the normal person will burn a candle befor blowing out. I may do this the wrong way, but I think after 3 burns if it still doesn't start getting a full melt pool by then, then you start having a tunneling effect going on with the candle and then an ugly looking candle that doesn't burn all the way down with this thick residue on the sides. Now that bothers me.

As far as soot goes, I don't like to see any soot whatsoever. When I say soot, I mean black appears on the glass of the jar. Not black forming on the wax itself...I won't accept a candle that has any black on wax what so ever. I think when a power burn is being done and no wick is clipped you will tend to get some soot maybe and to me when doing a power burn for long periods of like what you said if you are getting a little soot (on the glass), that doesn't disturb me if all else is great. I just think that an abusive burn is bound and normal to get some type of soot (black on the glass). I have always used the htps and love them. I've tried using when testing a new fragrance and same wax other types of wicks at times, like the cd's and ecos and for the life of me those wicks just soot terribly on me. Its just so weird like we all know how one person can use the same exact wax and fragrance and same exact jar and can get a wonderful candle that burns beautiful and another person get opposite results with all the same exact applications...lol...

Now as far as mushrooming, well I have candles that will do that if the wick isn't clipped and I expect that to happen on power burns and sometimes it will happen and sometimes not. But for me, if all else is great.....a full melt pool, great throw, no soot on wax then I'm happy. Just have to clip the wick....And that doesn't bother me what so ever, a mushroom when all else is perfect.....like all caution labels say....."clip wick to 1/4"....

I may have said things here that others don't agree with, but that is how I do my candles.

Trappeur

[inherowndominion]

Thanks for all the info you guys!!!!! That's a lot to process. Here's what I did:

I used 4627 in smooth jelly jars 16oz, NOT widemouth

I tested with htp 104, 105, 126

The 104 didn't seem to get a full melt pool after 4 hours, no way

The 105 got a MOSTLY full melt pool after 4 hours, but had soot

The 2 other candles (different ones than the 4 hour-at-a-time testers) I did power burns. Both had full melt pools after about 5 hours, but there was a WHOLE lot of soot.

I tested two different FO's, both with the same results. Different companies, totally different scents (lemon sugar, baby hugs)

Now I'm trying an HTP 126. I'm also trying another 104 but I didn't fill it nearly as high as I'm wondering if I'm not getting a full melt pool because of the way the jar slightly tapers, so I filled it to just below that taper. Mind you, to me, the jar looks like it's too empty, not sure they would sell that way, but who knows.

It's been suggested to me to try to use zinc wicks. But don't they soot MORE? I was told to try a 60-44-18 for the 16oz jelly jar...what do you guys think?

I tried using about 1 oz per pound of the FO, and I've found now that the throw is awesome, but mostly it's the melt pool\sooting problem. The soot is REALLY bothering me, yet I was told by some candlemakers that soot is the nature of the beast so to speak when it comes to paraffin.

The soot seems to be worse if I don't trim the wick, but even when I do, with the 105's (not sure about the 126 yet), I still see soot on the rim. The wick is totally centered too.

Any suggestions on what my next step should be? That's where I'm REALLY confused, where do I go from here? Keep trying the HTP's or switch to zinc?

[radellaf]

Personally, with paraffin I'd be trying LX wicks. Not sure how wide the 16oz jelly jars are, but if 3" maybe an LX16 or LX18? I have an LX14 in a 6oz hex jar and halfway down there's no soot (remelted Yankee jar wax). Some hang, but I think that's OK.

[topofmurrayhill]

LX is an option, but IGI recommends HTP with this wax and CD works well too. Those tend to be good for hard-to-burn blends.

[inherowndominion]

Thanks for the suggestions! I noticed actually that the 126 has the nicest melt pool, but do you think that's too big of a wick? The 105 is leaving a film on the sides of jar, but not really a "hang" so to speak. But it takes the 105 a little more than half way to get a full melt pool. Think customers will deal with that?

The 126 seems to be burning faster than the 105 (duh!) and thus the candle won't burn as long, but the 126 has LESS soot than the 105, course it's not all the way down yet, a little over half way I'd say (I always test in 4 hour increments, then make another candle with same wick and test in 8 hour burns just fyi).

It's just a regular mouth jelly jar, just like a mason jar, 16oz and all, but not wide mouth.

So do you guys think a HTP 126 with 4627 in a 16oz regular mouth jj is too big?

[radellaf]

If it's not smoking or having a flame that looks too big, then who's to argue...

I'd think customers would mind soot more than a smaller melt pool, especially if the flame is not drowning out like it does in so many commercial containers.

Just looked at CS and oddly enough they're recommending the ECO series. <shrug>

---

IGI 4627/3.5-4 Inch Diameter

Best: ECO 10

2nd Best: HTP 104

Acceptable: LX-22

[inherowndominion]

Well guys, I think I've finally done it. I think I've got myself a winner. For one scent, anyway LOL

I did the HTP 104 in the JJ and made sure to pour under the shoulder of the jar. I'm still getting soot, on one side, but it's not too bad. It's not BLACK, you can definately see through it, and it's very minimal. I've heard other candle makers say straight paraffin will soot, that it's the nature of the beast, and I'm willing to accept that.

I've tried, no joke, dozens of scents, candles, wick types and sizes, FO %'s and I ALWAYS get a little soot with this wax, honestly I think it's the jar. Because it tapers so much it's creating a little wind tunnel type thing, and it soots on the first burn, but only the first.

Now here's my question for you guys: When I test, I make the test jars in 3 different wick sizes. Once I've got my "winner" doing 4 hour test burns, I make another candle and test that in 8 hour power burns. Do you think it's safe to consolidate the two test burns in one candle? What I mean is: Do a 4 hour test burn for 3 or 4 burns, then an 8 hour power burn on the same candle? Or should I keep doing seperate candles?

By no means do I test just ONE candle out of a batch I think is a winner. If I do a power burn candle, and a 4 hour test candle, I make at least 3 more and test those as well. Trying to be totally certain. I'd rather that than get sued!

[topofmurrayhill]

I would want a tester (actually more than one) that shows me how it burns from top to bottom in shorter sessions, so 8 hour power burns would be a different tester. If you have a reject that you didn't burn very far down because the wick was so obviously wrong, you could possibly recycle it as a power burn tester. Yank the wick and replace it, then flatten out the top with a heat gun.

I haven't used that particular container, but I think it's a 3 inch wide mayonnaise type of jar, right? I would take a stab at testing it in 3 hour burns as well as 4 hour burns. It wouldn't have to be perfect at 3 hours and could have some hangup at the end, but I'd want to know that it doesn't totally mess up.

That's not intended to totally throw a wrench in the works, but it sounds like you're doing very well and have some leeway. Normally I have worries about a wick sooting more towards the bottom if it's too big. Sounds like your 104 isn't doing that at all. Maybe even the 105 would work if necessary?

The air current effect at the top could possibly be fixed by playing with the fill level some more and maybe the wick positioning. Seems a shame to have an otherwise clean burning candle get discolored just because of the very first burn.

I don't think it's because you're using paraffin per se. I've have black on paraffin and soy containers alike. If anything it's because that 4627 can be a little tricky, even though it has some nice properties. Each blend is unique and has its pros and cons. Or it might just be the jar.

Edited January 16, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[inherowndominion]

Thanks Top! You are the best! And you aren't throwing a wrench in my work, I'd rather it come out RIGHT than not! I will do the 3 hour burns and see how that goes. I'm also gonna power burn test a different candle, I figured that was a good idea.

It doesn't seem to be sooting towards the bottom, it's actually ONLY sooting on the first burn, which leads me to believe it's the jar. I've gotten it to soot much less since I've filled the jars only to the shoulder. I've tried messing with the wick placement, and no matter where I put it it seems to happen and the soot is ONLY happening on the rim.

When I fill it MORE, let's say above the shoulder, not only does it soot like crazy but both the 104 and 105 leave huge amounts of hang that don't catch up until nearly the bottom, even at 4 hour burns, if even then. And the jar seems to get really hot on one side. Unfortunately there isn't a HUGE amount of room to play with in that kind of jar and because the mouth is so much smaller than the body, there's even less room to play with without getting scorch marks.

The 104 towards the bottom doesn't leave soot, no, the 105 doesn't really either but the depth and the heat of the jar with the 105 tends to be really deep and hot towards the bottom.

I was sure that the 104 was gonna be too small and not throw as well or something, but it did nearly the exact same job as the 105 without the heat, soot, etc. And I know you are supposed to go with the smallest wick possible. So I think for this scent the 104 won out.

I've been trying parasoy blends too, though I'm letting them cure 2 weeks (too long?) before I even test. I was not letting them cure at all and making 2 testers at a time, one to test the burn and one to test the throw, but I decided that was wasteful so now I'm just being patient with the parasoy.

The 4627 straight, no matter what I do, what wick, position, scent, amount, etc I get soot, but it's a small amount, so I'm not too worried about it. I'm 99% sure it's the jar. And since I have a ton of them, I'm gonna have to use them up before thinking of switching jars. I personally think it looks funny that it isn't filled all the way, but when I do that, it just messes up the whole candle. *sigh*

Thanks for the advice though, I'm going to try the 3 hour burns today and see what happens. It's already half way down the jar though, will that give me an accurate idea on the 3 hour burns you think?

[CareBear]

I've heard other candle makers say straight paraffin will soot, that it's the nature of the beast, and I'm willing to accept that.

[inherowndominion]

I'm assuming by your reaction that's not right? LOL I've heard that from quite a few candle makers....are they lyin' to me? *looks around with eyebrows raised* I'm hoping not cause then it's back to the drawing board for me!

[topofmurrayhill]

I've been trying parasoy blends too, though I'm letting them cure 2 weeks (too long?) before I even test. I was not letting them cure at all and making 2 testers at a time, one to test the burn and one to test the throw, but I decided that was wasteful so now I'm just being patient with the parasoy.

I don't think the parasoys need to cure at all. As far as anyone seems to know, the curing process is connected with changes in the crystallinity of soy wax after it's poured, because it's a vegetable oil. The parasoy mixture is a totally different animal and those changes don't happen at all. You should be good to go a day or two after pouring.

[inherowndominion]

Thanks top! You are always so helpful! That really helps me out a lot.

I just test burned my cuke and melon from just scent, I made 100% soy and let it cure 2 full weeks. I tested it so far about 6 hours and no throw whatsoever! ARG!

I'm still battling the soy. Every time I burn them, it's changing a little bit (the 4627), whereas last time it seemed like the 104 was winning out, even got a nice melt pool after a 3 hour burn, once I finished my latest burn, the104 has MORE soot than the 105. So I guess I really am back to the drawing board!

You guys have infinite patience, I'm seriously starting to doubt my candle making skills! The soot thing is really kickin' my butt!!!!

[IwantItgreen]

I'm still battling the soy. Every time I burn them, it's changing a little bit (the 4627), whereas last time it seemed like the 104 was winning out, even got a nice melt pool after a 3 hour burn, once I finished my latest burn, the104 has MORE soot than the 105. So I guess I really am back to the drawing board!

You guys have infinite patience, I'm seriously starting to doubt my candle making skills! The soot thing is really kickin' my butt!!!!

While you are messing around with both soy and paraffin, why don't you try mixing them! I mix 415 with 4627 70/30. I really like it. I've been tempering my wax. No frosting; no soot unless it's a power burn; short cure time; easy to wick, generally. Give it a try, you may be surprised

[inherowndominion]

Thanks! I think I will, right now I'm doing 50-50 parasoy and it's only been burning for about an hour, but no throw whatsoever. I'm ready to pull my hair out over here!!!! Thanks for the suggestion, I'm gonna try a 70/30 tomorrow!

Maybe I got spoiled. The 4627 throws like crazy!

[IwantItgreen]

I'm really interested in how you find the 70/30 throws, so please keep us updated! I use between 7.5 - 9% FO. I can hardly smell my candles, but my sisters say they can smell them over they pies they were baking at x-mas, so I must be doing something right. It doesn't help I make & test in my kitchen with being a stay-at-home-mom, I'm in the scents all the time.

[inherowndominion]

That's so funny because hubby said he could smell the parasoy just a few minutes ago and I can't smell it at ALL. He said it wasn't as strong as straight 4627 that I've burned, but he said he could smell it from pretty far back. I can't smell anything but what was cooked for dinner tonight (I use my kitchen too!).

I put one in an upstairs room and shut the door. I figure, if when I open the door it knocks my socks off, then it's probably throwing pretty well! I think we've both got serious candle nose!

[IwantItgreen]

I think we've both got serious candle nose!

I think so too, but yet I'm not totally convinced, because today I went to clean at someones house and took my CS peach along to test for HT. I wasn't smelling it at all at our house, but yet over there I smelled it like anyone else would. So I don't knowwwww......

[IwantItgreen]

I love candles and burned alot of Yankees, that's how I got started in chandling. But I have to admit that sometimes I get discouraged because the candles I love, I can't smell!! One thing is sure, it would have been cheaper to just burn yankees!

[inherowndominion]

Yeah it would! MUCH cheaper! It's honestly not the cost that bothers me so much (though if it would have been cheaper, that would be nice too LOL) it's the ever-changing nature of the dang things. One day I think WOW the throw is great, but the thing soots and I can't seem to fix it, or the melt depth is too deep, or it burns great at 4 hours but not 3, and so on and so on. ARG! Every time I think I got a winner, something pops up. I'm not asking for the Candle Gods to bestow on me perfect candles every time, I know I gotta pay my dues still being a semi newbie to this, but ONE scent that works out of the zillion testers I've done so far would be good. Not even for selling purposes, just to increase my morale LOL It can get soooo discouraging!

Now tarts I can do. My tarts I had no problem with, dare I say, they throw better than some of my candles!