Dark burn

[nadiap]

Not sure how to describe it and my camera doesn't work but here goes....

Using a combination of Advanced and 135 wax, no additives, 6% FO and a miniscule droplet of green colour dye.

Testing a glass container that was burning perfectly - but I'm down to less than one third of the container and the the wax now appears to be a 'dirty' colour.... there is a little hang up on one side, but again, only started on this burn, otherwise the container is completely clean.

The wick (CDN10) just started to mushroom a little, but otherwise worked well up until this point.

Any ideas on what could be causing this 'dirty' look to the wax? I'm guessing it's also got something to do with the mushrooming of the wick -- any ideas?

TIA

[topofmurrayhill]

A good possibility is soot that's settled on the wax. How clean is the glass?

That last third of a candle often makes or breaks a wick selection. If you're gonna have black stuff it's often down there. You've got hotter wax and more air currents whipping the flame around, so you can get some soot if the wick is burning a little too fast.

If you think that might be the case and you've been trimming the wick before burning, you could try a CDN 8 or maybe see if a CD 10 works better at the bottom.

[nadiap]

A good possibility is soot that's settled on the wax. How clean is the glass?

Pretty clean right up to that little bit of hang on one side - and even the hang looks dirty.

That last third of a candle often makes or breaks a wick selection. If you're gonna have black stuff it's often down there. You've got hotter wax and more air currents whipping the flame around, so you can get some soot if the wick is burning a little too fast.

Yep, and the place I always seems to fall over myself :-) The wicks do really well either at the top of the bottom, but not one has been consistent (I won't speak too soon - have a glass votive that seems to be doing really well - best yet regarding MP )

If you think that might be the case and you've been trimming the wick before burning, you could try a CDN 8 or maybe see if a CD 10 works better at the bottom.

Makes sense - the 'dirtiness' does have a black tinge to it - I tilted the candle over a little and you could see that the melt pool wasn't clean, but the not yet melted wax looked exactly the colour I tinted it !

So this is whata is called 'sooting'.? and generally means the wick is burning too fast ?? Still trying to get my head around this part of it

Oh, I nearly forgot - the MP looks like it has some sediment in it- can't explain it any other way - made more obvious when I tilted the jar a little.

This has happened to be before and have never had a good explanation of what it could be - even if I had a camera - I doubt that this sentiment would be visible...

Why is this wicking business so damn hard ???? :-) I have every size you can get in the CDNs and HTPs and have yet to make the perfect container candle :-(

Thanks for the tips !

[topofmurrayhill]

Try wicking it for good results at the bottom. It's okay if there's hangup on the way down. Hopefully all or most of it will melt by the time the candle is done.

By how clean the glass is, I meant is there any dark film on it. It should be easy to see and it wipes off on your fingertip. If you're getting soot at the bottom you'll probably also see it on the glass.

[Stella1952]

What FO were you using? Some FOs are worse about causing this phenom than others...

Why is this wicking business so damn hard ????

Heck, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if we didn't have the wicking wall to run our heads into over and over and over...:laugh2:

[RichardLOZ]

Heck, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if we didn't have the wicking wall to run our heads into over and over and over...:laugh2:

Maybe thats just a conspiracy contrived by the wax, wick and scent manufacturers to entice us to spend more of our hard earned money. Then when you add the jars into the mix as well. I reckon in recent months I have gone through a 50lb box of glass glow trying to single wick a 10 oz apothecary jar, which just wont play, no matter what I try, so I gave up, changed jars and will just keep the apoth for soy.

Life is so much more peaceful now

[soy327]

Nadiap

This is exactly what I just found on my Mango Salsa I've been testing. 16oz apothacary jar, 135, 1/2 tbsp usa, 2 tsp co, 2 cd 4's, 5th burn. Everything has been looking great....until this morning burned for 4hrs, blew out. it has resolidified and there is a little black soot on the top of the peach/orange wax???? I don't think I should wick down because the flame on the 4's is perfect. I wiped the inside of the jar with a paper towel (man do I go through paper towel) it is clean, has burned the top 3rd of the jar. :confused: started the tests on Thurs the 10th. Disappointed

Have you come to a conclusion or remedy yet?

Linda

[nadiap]

By how clean the glass is, I meant is there any dark film on it. It should be easy to see and it wipes off on your fingertip. If you're getting soot at the bottom you'll probably also see it on the glass.

No, that's the weird thing - apart from the hangup which does look sooty, the glass is pretty clean.

[nadiap]

What FO were you using? Some FOs are worse about causing this phenom than others...

Was using Angel (type). I did test early - 2 days after pouring - but this was for the wick rather than scent throw. Cold throw was fantastic, the hot throw wasn't too bad either, until I got to that bottom section. It could have been my imagination, thinking it smelled odd, but I'd been pouring different scents all day - so my nose may not have been reliable :-)

Heck, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun if we didn't have the wicking wall to run our heads into over and over and over...:laugh2:

All I can say is that it's all doing my head in !! You get to a certain point and think all is working - only be to thrown a curve ball at the end. Richard is right, lots of money wasted and you have to wonder whether it's all worth it sometimes

[nadiap]

Have you come to a conclusion or remedy yet?

Linda

Nope, gave up on that one :-) when I relit it, the appearance just got darker , though the underlying solid wax was the correct colour, just the MP that was 'icky' :-)

I've repoured 2 new containers, this time using a CDN 8 and a CDN12.

I too don't think I need to wick down, as I mentioned, it was the first jar for me where the MP was achieved as required. However, I"m willing to try again - I'm a glutton for punishment I think :-)

Let me know how you get on as well.

Nadia

[Stella1952]

Nope, gave up on that one :-) when I relit it, the appearance just got darker , though the underlying solid wax was the correct colour, just the MP that was 'icky' :-)

Well, once the sooting began, it certainly wasn't going away! The underlying wax wasn't discolored because it hadn't come in contact with the flame yet. The MP was nasty because something in the wax & wick wasn't completely burning and left residue & soot in the MP.

there is a little hang up on one side, but again, only started on this burn, otherwise the container is completely clean....I too don't think I need to wick down, as I mentioned, it was the first jar for me where the MP was achieved as required

HUH? There is no hard & fast rule about melt pool "requirement." A little hangup on the first or second burn is quite normal and acceptable. During the last third of the candle, however, one expects it to melt off. You have been trimming the wick before each burn, right? If not, the particles may be from the wick self-trimming... Since this issue is happening at the end of the container, and if you've been trimming the wick, there's certainly a wicking change needed. If the MP is off-center, you should adjust the wick or reposition the container so that it burns evenly. What is the inside diameter of the container? What shape is it?

I've repoured 2 new containers, this time using a CDN 8 and a CDN12.

I hope you used the same FO to test the CDN 8 & 12...

Let us know how the new test goes... My money is on the 8 working out and the 12 being a torch.

You get to a certain point and think all is working - only be to thrown a curve ball at the end.

The fact of the matter is that making quality candles is so much more than pouring some wax in a container & sticking a wick in. Soy-based veggie waxes are not totally easy with which to work. Anything worth doing well takes practice - ya just have to persevere through the learning curve. Patience!

there is a little black soot on the top of the peach/orange wax... I don't think I should wick down because the flame on the 4's is perfect

How much is "a little"? If the wick is sooting up the melt pool, it doesn't matter if the flame looks perfect - it isn't perfect for the candle system! You mentioned "blowing out" the wick - do you know about dipping the wick to extinguish the flame?

it is clean, has burned the top 3rd of the jar

The story on wicking happens during the last half or third of the container. Those big 16 oz. containers take a LONG time to burn down and test... Apothecary jars are notoriously temperamental to wick with soy-based wax, especially the big ones with an inner diameter of 3+ inches... Edited December 13, 2009 by Stella1952

[topofmurrayhill]

No, that's the weird thing - apart from the hangup which does look sooty, the glass is pretty clean.

That's interesting. I assume you don't see any puffs of smoke from the wick either. We have seen this sort of thing before and there have been a couple of different explanations offered.

EcoSoya claimed that lack of oxygen could cause unburned particles to escape from the flame and settle on the wax even if the wick isn't sooting in the usual way. I don't really buy this except maybe in connection with specific wick types.

If it's not a wick size issue, then I think it centers on the wick type. At times for instance ECO has been blamed for discoloring the wax without making visible soot.

It's definitely not the trimming of the wick. That might drop a few black dots into the wax but it has nothing to do with a dark film. If anything it might be the opposite, since you mentioned that stuff started accumulating at the tip of the wick at the same time that the discoloration appeared.

If CDN 8 turns out to be too small or doesn't solve the problem, and you're convinced 10 is the right size, try the regular CD 10 in place of the CDN. It should be a better match to the wax and might avoid that mushrooming and maybe the black film along with it.

Edited December 13, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[KoalaGirl]

Nadiap

No soot on the glass makes me think it may be the wax itself discolouring {happens with a lot of combo's.....a dirty greyish meltpool} HOWEVER, Ive tested Angel extensively {from CS} using a 1:3 ratio of CB Advanced + CB135, sometimes using a pale pink dye chip but mostly using no colour at all. Ive used anywhere between 6 and 9% FO and CDN 8,10,12 and HTP105. All using an 8oz metro jar. In every case the wick drowned out {or struggled pathetically} by mid way down. BUT never did I get the ugly grey meltpool. If I were you, I would make it again only leave out the green? dye.

Im going to give it one more go using a CDN 14 and if that doesnt work I'll probably give up on it. Its a shame, because its a lovely scent and gave a great hot throw.

[wildwings]

Honestly, I think it is great that you all take so much pride and care into making your candles.

I had ordered a couple of candles from someone and was so disappointed in the product.

The jar was completely black and you could see a steady stream of black as the wick burned. I finally threw it out...

Edited December 16, 2009 by wildwings

[soy327]

Nadiap, Is this what you are talking about? I wonder if the wicks need to be a little further apart? Are could the wicks be totally wrong for this application, It's 135 1/2 tbsp pp usa and 2tsp CO. Any help for us? This is the second jar I've test burned and only 4hrs at a time. It only happens with 2 wickers.

Edited December 21, 2009 by soy327

[topofmurrayhill]

The placement is perfect, but it looks like way too much wick. What's the size?

It doesn't take much to double wick CB-135. You're well short of the halfway mark and you've got spotless glass and a very deep melt pool.

[soy327]

CD 5's, 4's didn't quit make it in the middle, maybe I'll try them again. Thought of testing my eco's and htp's I have.

This jar is killing me I might just make a smaller jar I'm used to for this customer. She requested a large container. Thanks

Linda

[topofmurrayhill]

With so few sizes at the low end, ECOs aren't practical for double wicking. Stick with CD and HTP. It's nice to have both on hand because they're similar but the sizes are different, so you have more options.

CD 5 looks like way more than enough. Did you give up on CD 4 too soon? Might be a good idea to try again. You could try an HTP 62 tester as well.

[soy327]

I was just going to ask you about the HTP 62 that was the only wick I didn't have that a friend gave to me (her old sample pack) I got a new sample pack today, I think I left the CD 4 in for several burns in the last one. It went almost all the way down about 1/2" left in the jar and it did the same thing with the black the flame went none existent. I melted it down and tossed the old wax and started fresh with the 5's.

I remember (can't find my darn notes) from last winter we had wicked this jar with eco 6's and the advanced wax, seemed to do alright but that was way in my beginning starting to make candles:yay:I have really come to learn more in the last 9 months or so, wish I new about this forum then:laugh2::laugh2:

Linda

Nadiap are you out there somewhere how's it going?

[topofmurrayhill]

Maybe it would help to simplify a little bit and try plain CB-135 without the additives.

[soy327]

thanks Top, That a good thought.

[topofmurrayhill]

Never start with the additives. It's temping to throw every beneficial thing you've heard of at the candle to make it awesome right away, but that will only get you lost in the woods. Additives can easily make your candle work like crap. You choose to use them (and decide exactly how much to use) based on the benefits you see in your own testing compared to plain wax.

Unless something has changed, CB-135 is a pretty easy burning wax. I never saw anything like those black spots with it. When using two wicks I had to keep them pretty small and they never drowned out. Unless the FO is especially troublesome, I don't think you should be having oddball problems if you simplify and start fresh.

Looking forward to hearing about progress.