Pricing votives

[Craftedinthewoods]

I'm making my first soy votives and have 3 scents to sell at a candle party tomorrow night. I have figured my cost of materials and time (I know I will get faster with more practice pouring votives) and then following business advice I double that to get my wholesale price. Then I am to at least multiply that by 1.5 to reach my retail price.

Problem??? Well, at least looking on line I can't find a soy votive for more than 1.75! That isn't even what my wholesale price should be according to my calculations!

Can anyone tell me what you charge for your votive candles, and how you arrive at that number?

[SliverOfWax]

I just want to make sure I understand you.

You're making your first votives today to sell tomorrow?

If that's true, the price of the votives isn't nearly as important as the cost of the insurance I hope you have.

I sell votives for $2.50.

[joanncat18]

She didn't say she made them today.

Usually people multiply their cost by 2 or 3 to find their selling price, but if your cost is very high then you may be eating some money on those.

[dublon]

I'm making my first soy votives and have 3 scents to sell at a candle party tomorrow night. .......I know I will get faster with more practice pouring votives)

Not trying to be rude here, but if you are still learning to make votives... DO NOT start selling them tomorrow!!! It is a disaster waiting to happen, as there are too many things that can go wrong!!

Especially with Soy!!

btw I sell mine for $2.00 here in Canada, but I've been making them for 4 years and just started selling last fall.

[Craftedinthewoods]

I began testing my first votives 3 weeks ago without any scent to find my base wick size. After many tests I began testing different scents. I've been testing these first 3 scents for about a week now. (I've tested 6 to 8 of each scent with the wick size I chose.)

Is that enough testing? I have been making container candles (& selling) for about 9 months and feel pretty confident about my testing proceedures. Although I admit I still feel a bit uncertain about how a votive should burn... in many of my tests the votives take several different shapes during the first 2 burns before finally reaching a full melt pool. But the end results of the ones I plan to sell are a clean container and a nice flame (not too hot & large).

So back to the pricing... How many votives can be made in an hour or 2? I know I have much room for getting better and faster and that will bring my cost down.

[Craftedinthewoods]

Not trying to be rude here, but if you are still learning to make votives... DO NOT start selling them tomorrow!!! It is a disaster waiting to happen, as there are too many things that can go wrong!!

Especially with Soy!!

btw I sell mine for $2.00 here in Canada, but I've been making them for 4 years and just started selling last fall.

OK - I've only been testing for 2 weeks!!! Yikes - what can happen if I seem to have found a wick for a few scents that burns down nicely?

[Dustpuuppy]

OK - I've only been testing for 2 weeks!!! Yikes - what can happen if I seem to have found a wick for a few scents that burns down nicely?

I wouldn't worry too much. Most fire departments have plenty of experience with this sort of thing. The body count shouldn't be too high.

[dublon]

I wouldn't worry too much. Most fire departments have plenty of experience with this sort of thing. The body count shouldn't be too high.

Amen!!

[Craftedinthewoods]

OK - I get it... But help me understand??? When I burn my votives (the 3 scents I've burnd 6 to 8 of) The end results are all the same. If I keep burning them at home, what will change???

[Dustpuuppy]

You did mention that you were getting odd shapes, before they settled down. You might want to try one size up and one size down on your wicks. See if you can zero in on that issue, if there is an issue, there.

You might want to post a pic of some of the ones with odd burn patterns. Scented is pretty much the votive queen. If there's a problem, she's prolly got a solution for it.

The good news is that votives are quicker to test than most other candles, as they are small.

The bad news is that they tend to be the candle most likely to be abused by the average idiot, in the real world, as they are small and cheap. People get stupid with votives, because they think them harmless.

You have to be sure that they're safe enough for a complete moron to use, because someday one will. And if that moron finds a way to burn his house down with one of your candles, he and his lawyer will take yours.

Wouldn't hurt to run off 3 or 4 more batches of each scent and burn some from each, to make sure you're getting consistent burn characteristics from batch to batch and scent to scent.

You can get lucky once or twice... maybe even thrice. If you're getting consistently good burns from 5 or 6 batches in a row, you've probably got it right.

And if you're gonna make money from votives, you're gonna need a lot of molds. And a lot more than 3 scents. If you only have 4 molds and it takes you 2 hours to pour, repour demold and reset, you're making an average of 2 candles per hour. If you sell them for $2.50 each, you would only be making $5.00 per hour, even if your materials were free and you sold them all, every time. I don't see any way the math would work with less than about 20 molds.

[dublon]

So well said Dust!!!!

And if I may just add on to this, and this from my own experience, soy votives have a mind of their own sometimes.

They will burn beautifully a couple of weeks after making, then you randomly burn one of the same batch 1 year later, and oh la.... "ain't the same thing".

You need to test, test and test again in different environments, and learn, learn and learn!!! And don't expect to build up a business in 1 or 2 months!! It takes a long time and very hard work!!

[NaturallyTru]

Testing is important but Holy Cow...don't frighten the poor girl!

I must be just lucky. I've never really had any issues with my votives. (Soy/beeswax blend).

Trudi

[Scented]

Actually no one frightened her. She's got a post about votives not burning consistently and she wants to sell them without really knowing what they are ... you don't see a problem with that?

Luck or not, you ought to know wth you're messing with and you ought to know the ins and outs of a product you put on the market and that it will consistently produce before you take even a penny for it. No?

I don't think you have to test for four years before you take something to market, but if you want repeat customers then I suggest you test a little longer than a couple of weeks. You should be able to tell your customers or at least use how well your product throws, burns and how long it burns as selling points for starters. I don't imagine you can do all of that can you?

[Dustpuuppy]

Testing is important but Holy Cow...don't frighten the poor girl!

I must be just lucky. I've never really had any issues with my votives. (Soy/beeswax blend).

Trudi

I got lucky when I started out, too. I actually started selling my pillars a bit earlier than I should have.

I'd done almost as much testing as I should have, still lost a lot of sleep wondering if one of my early efforts was gonna burn someone's house down, after I'd learned better.

I imagine that a lot of us have gotten lucky that way but I wouldn't promote crossing your fingers as a sound business strategy.

[Craftedinthewoods]

OK - thank you for clarifying your thoughts. I do appreciate any input as I am new to votives and I DO want a great product to match the great ones I already sell. No I didn't take my new votives to my candle party last night (which was a huge success!). I didn't want to sell a candle that I had doubts about. So I hope you don't get too tired of me asking more questions about votives so I can get through this new phase of candle making.

So, to begin with... I'm using the same method to make the votives each time and each batch. I know that is imperative.

And I'll continue testing. If I wick up to achieve a full melt pool sooner (and avoid that funny hang I mentioned earlier) I find that the flame is large and bouncy and the glass gets pretty hot. That is why I wicked down... even though the votive has wax hang on half of the votive for the first 2 burns or so, the flame is never too hot and big and the wax hang clears off by the 3rd and 4th burns... and by the end of the candle it is still not burning too hot. Does that at least sound like I'm on the right track???

But I have to ask about those few morons that will try to burn things down with our candles... Can a candle maker really be held liable for someone burning a votive (or any candle) in a way that is unsafe? I have safety warning labels on the bottoms of all candles, on my labels I state to follow the warning labels, and on my new votive label I have printed "use only with tight fitting voive containers".

I mean, if votives are so dangerous how can any large candle company sell them?

[Maggie]

You could get some idiot like my best friend...lol.

She was burning the votives like a pillar candle and couldn't understand why the votive didn't last long. They weren't my votives...she teaches CCD and got them from one of the kids for Christmas. I couldn't believe a 56 year old woman didn't know how to burn a votive. She never read the warning label because she figured...you just light the wick and let it burn.

A house burned down several years ago...the road behind me. She was burning votives in her bathroom and left the house. My friend...the one I had to tell to burn a votive in a tight fitting container...and I went down and watched her beautiful home burn almost to the ground. She admitted that she left the candles burning when she left to pick up..I think it was her son...from a football game. I can't remember the details since it's been like 7 or 8 years ago.

Unfortunately...there are too many brain dead people out there to trust them to heed the cautions.

[joanncat18]

To be honest with you...before I started making candles I also burned votives like pillars...I didn't know any better. Never read the warning labels before. I think a lot of people burn them like that on a plate. Your warning labels will help you not get sued, but you need to also have insurance on your products if you are selling.

I am glad your party went well. And please don't quit asking questions. It helps us all learn.

[nmhoneybear]

OK - thank you for clarifying your thoughts. I do appreciate any input as I am new to votives and I DO want a great product to match the great ones I already sell. No I didn't take my new votives to my candle party last night (which was a huge success!). I didn't want to sell a candle that I had doubts about. So I hope you don't get too tired of me asking more questions about votives so I can get through this new phase of candle making.

So, to begin with... I'm using the same method to make the votives each time and each batch. I know that is imperative.

And I'll continue testing. If I wick up to achieve a full melt pool sooner (and avoid that funny hang I mentioned earlier) I find that the flame is large and bouncy and the glass gets pretty hot. That is why I wicked down... even though the votive has wax hang on half of the votive for the first 2 burns or so, the flame is never too hot and big and the wax hang clears off by the 3rd and 4th burns... and by the end of the candle it is still not burning too hot. Does that at least sound like I'm on the right track???

But I have to ask about those few morons that will try to burn things down with our candles... Can a candle maker really be held liable for someone burning a votive (or any candle) in a way that is unsafe? I have safety warning labels on the bottoms of all candles, on my labels I state to follow the warning labels, and on my new votive label I have printed "use only with tight fitting voive containers".

I mean, if votives are so dangerous how can any large candle company sell them?

I have been making candles for nearly 3 years and do not feel comfortable selling them because I have not gotten insurance yet. I am still in the testing phase. You said that your candle party went well the other night, but do you have insurance? In the society that we live in today, it is scary to sell candles without insurance. If someone's house burns down and a fire marshall determines that a candle (one of your candles) was to blame, they will come after you...even if the fire was due to "operator error", which I believe is most often the case anyway. The homeowner's insurance company will go after the manufacturer of the candle. I think it's called "passing the buck". In my mind, that is far too big a risk to take. I happen to like where I live and want to stay here.

[Craftedinthewoods]

So do you just ask you homeowners insurance co. if they will cover you?

This kind of thing makes me crazy! Does anyone ever sue a cigarette company for someone leaving a cigarette in an unsafe place & starting a house fire? Can someone sue the stove company for a fire started by leaving the stove on and setting the newspaper down on it?

How can a candle maker - weather its one of us or if it's a big company like Yankee candles - be held liable for someone burning a candle in an unsafe, unrecommended way?!

Afterall, isn't that why the instructions on our chainsaws say don't operate in the bathtub?... just so no one can sue them if they happen to cut off a limb in the tub? (sorry I may have taken that one too far...)

[nmhoneybear]

I have heard to be careful about asking your current insurance company to cover you. Some will drop you if they know that you are making candles in your home. There are a couple of companies out there that you can contact though...ones that I will check into when I am ready...Soapmaker's Guild and Benchmark (not sure on this one).

And, yes, I know that it sounds crazy to think someone could sue you, but from what I have heard by reading this board for hours on end over the past 3 years, it CAN and HAS happened. Remember, you are dealing with something that has a flame to it and has the potential to burn not only itself, but also a whole house down. Regardless of whose fault it is, someone has to be liable and insurance companies want to pass the buck whenever possible. The big companies...Yankee, PartyLite, etc...they all have insurance, I'm sure. No one wants to be liable in a court of law. You must protect yourself and your family from any possible lawsuits. It's just that simple.

[joanncat18]

Just because it doesn't seem right or even logical...doesn't mean people wont still try to sue. Like the people who sue McDonalds because their food was horrible for them...or when they sued because the coffee was too hot and it burned them. Someone could try to say that your candle made the glass shatter because it was too hot and that is what caused their house fire or injury. Or that the flame got too big and caught the curtain on fire. Just an extra protection.

If you make soap too then you can get insurace through the Soapmaker's Guild

http://www.soapguild.org/insurance.php

This will cover all your products, but you have to have at least one soap in your line...since it's the soapmaker's guild. This one is $500 per year.

There is also the Indy Beauty Network. This one you don't have to make soap too. Just candles is ok...or other handmade products. This is $545 per year for the insurance and membership to IBN.

http://www.indiebeautynetwork.com/channel-ibnyou/insurance.asp

[Dustpuuppy]

So do you just ask you homeowners insurance co. if they will cover you?

This kind of thing makes me crazy! Does anyone ever sue a cigarette company for someone leaving a cigarette in an unsafe place & starting a house fire? Can someone sue the stove company for a fire started by leaving the stove on and setting the newspaper down on it?

No. You need product liability insurance.

A woman won a multi million dollar suit against McDonalds because they didn't have a warning label on their coffee to tell her that it was hot.

Another guy got hit by a car while riding a bicycle at night and sued the bike company for not telling him to put lights or reflectors on the bike, if he were riding at night. Don't know if he won.

If you get sued and don't have insurance, you'll still have to pay a lawyer to deal with it, even if it's total BS. You'll still have to at least go to a hearing, where a judge would decide whether or not there's a real case, at the very least. Even if it's totally bogus, you're gonna have to pay a lawyer to file for a dismissal or whatever.

You could get stuck with $2000 in legal fees, just to show up and get it laughed out of court.

[Meridith]

So do you just ask you homeowners insurance co. if they will cover you?

This kind of thing makes me crazy! Does anyone ever sue a cigarette company for someone leaving a cigarette in an unsafe place & starting a house fire? Can someone sue the stove company for a fire started by leaving the stove on and setting the newspaper down on it?

How can a candle maker - weather its one of us or if it's a big company like Yankee candles - be held liable for someone burning a candle in an unsafe, unrecommended way?!

Afterall, isn't that why the instructions on our chainsaws say don't operate in the bathtub?... just so no one can sue them if they happen to cut off a limb in the tub? (sorry I may have taken that one too far...)

While the idea that you may be sued seems ridiculous to you, this is America. Anybody can sue anybody for anything but that does not mean they will prevail in a lawsuit. HOWEVER, if you are sued, you will still need to defend yourself which means hiring an attorney and appearing before the judge. That's where the insurance comes in - your insurance will have an attorney to represent you in any action brought against you or your company. Without insurance you have a better chance of losing everything, unless you're rich, defending yourself in a cause of action brought against you and/or your company.

Frivolous lawsuits abound in our court system. Some are won, some are not. You should be a long ways from selling any candle. Get your testing done to ensure a safe candle, learn more about this biz, get your license, registration (or whatever is required in your state to do business), insurance and all that stuff before you sell anything to anyone. Its in your best interest to do so.