1343 sticking to polycarbonate

[radellaf]

Anyone have trouble with IGI 1343 A sticking badly to polycarbonate molds?

With no additives and 2%-3% FO I was getting easy mold release from aluminum and poly, excellent mottling, and varying amounts of weeping of color or FO.

So, I got some Vybar 343 in the hopes of having the same look but no weeping and at 1% it usually works. However, now my candles are leaving a LOT of residue on the polycarbonate molds. They release OK, but have a dimpled texture and leave a dimpled film of wax on the mold. I tried plain 1343 with no dye or fragrance and have the same problem, even with a light coating of silicone mold release (it made zero difference). Aluminum molds work great. After refrigerating the pillars or votives drop right out.

Any ideas?

1343 is supposed to have "good mold release" and the Vybar should help. It's easy enough to clean the votive molds I've been testing with but my first surpise was with a "large pyramid" mold which was a royal pain to clean out with hot water and paper towels. OTOH the dimpled texture looks nice.

[Scented]

FO eats the surface, roughens it up and makes release a pain over time.

The 1343 shouldn't be sticking to the mold, not with using v103 or 343 so either you're mold is deteriorating from FO eating on it or it's something else.

BTW, I don't think mold release is a requirement with these molds and I imagine washing with water is a pain ... but 1343 doesn't really clean up in soap and water ...

Just to add, polycarbs don't hang around long as a mold if you use FO with them.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Scented

[radellaf]

Two of the molds were brand new and the other still in good shape.

So, yeah, that's my confusion. The surfaces of these molds are smooth, and most waxes release quite easily from them.

The 1343, though, in addition to being tough to release, is leaving a thin covering of wax over almost 100% of the inside of the mold. Which, yes, is a pain to clean up. The hot water only serves to melt/soften the wax so that the paper towel can wipe it off.

As for the FO damage over time, it is just something I'll have to live with since I like the shapes. The worst damage I got was from CRC silicone lube. It's a cheap mold release for metal, but fogs/pits polycarbonate. Still, I used a 1" pillar mold that has a bunch of that damage with 1343, 2% FO, no additives, and the seeping FO was enough that it just slid right out of the mold.

I love the way 1343 looks, but wish it was a bit harder and could hold 2-3% FO. Still, once they "cure", the pillars are burning nicely with LX18s (2" and 2.5") so long as you "hug" them periodically. LX14 for the votives. I've yet to burn any of the ones with the Vybar 343 but presume I might need a smaller wick. LX14 really should be enough for a 2" pillar but I guess even the 2% FO was causing trouble.

[Dustpuuppy]

You might try a touch of Stearin. It increases hardness. Seems to help with mold release for me.

[Scented]

The polycarbs I have come out fine without any vybar. I use steric. Rarely will I put a little sprinkle of vybar in the mix, but sometimes I do.

Try your 1343 with just steric and whatever amount of FO you want. You could do a mix of v and steric and see what you get. You can do a mix of 1343, beeswax, steric and v and see what you get as well. All of them should release without problems.

Otherwise, I think I would go back to the people you bought the molds from and ask them what to do and explain what has happened. I know I had a mold that was wasted after three uses and that was the last time I touched polys. My thought was if I loved the shape so much, I could certainly find it in something else or do without it.

There are some great poly shapes out there for sure, but at the same time ... it's not hard to do w/out them either. Although I am thinking about digging some of them out again that came from across the pond.

[radellaf]

I think the molds came from CandleWic, but Exagon makes them... the pyramid, bell-top, and egg shapes anyway. I forget where the votive cups came from. Fortunately, the sticking hasn't damaged any of the molds. BTW, had no luck using Novus 2 to polish the inside of the egg. Last time I looked tho, exagon doesn't directly offer customer support.

The egg did get "etching" after only a couple of uses. Maybe from peak's cinnamon or the intense red Xmas candle I recycled that time. That and the cinna-beeswax sure smelled great though.

I'll try some stearic soon as I test a few of the 1% V343 to see if it improves the sagging issue at all. Any suggestion on how much? I'm guessing 3% as a minimum to help with FO retention, not sure when it would start to interfere with the mottling. I read 10% but that seems awful high.

[Dustpuuppy]

Try one tablespoon per pound on the steric acid (sterin). You can go up to 3 per pound, but that will kill your mottleing. The 1TBsp may also, but it's a gopd place to start.

[Scented]

2 tablespoons shouldn't hurt your mottling ... 3 heaping ones will hinder it though.

[radellaf]

Trying 3% by weight (9g in 300g) stearic 2% FO. It's coming away from the poly mold without refrigeration, but left the dimpled coating on about 50% of the surface. That's an improvement over the 90-100% without stearic in the previous two tests. Definitely still mottling. More so than the 1% Vybar 343 does, though without using the same FO each time I won't make anything of small differences. I'll try 6% stearic next week.

Here's what that dimpling I'm talking about looks like.

And here's the orange with vybar vs. green no vybar. The actual candles are straight 2" pillars. Ya gotta love the barrel distortion on these pocket size zoom cameras.

Edited November 6, 2009 by radellaf

[Scented]

If you're going for the mottling, you aren't going to be able to try a water bath, but I'm wondering what kind of difference that might make. You'll have to weight the mold down though.

Or, when you're getting ready to go for release, put it in ice cold water and see if that helps with more release. What I'm seeing in the picture looks like that part of the candle that isn't ready to release from the mold just yet. Does that wet spot look go away if you press in that area? Or is that picture not through the mold?

[topofmurrayhill]

Stearic acid is traditionally used in amounts up to 30% for molded paraffin candles, but mottled pillars are generally made with less than 5% stearic. The larger amounts are useful for other purposes.

Around here you commonly get the suggest to use 2 or 3 tablespoons per pound of wax. This is based roughly on how much is needed to minimize cleanup when making the candle. As I'm sure you've noticed, these candles can ooze a lot while they're mottling in the mold, which requires a lot of wiping. Stearic acid can drastically reduce that.

However, the ability of stearic acid to prevent sweating while the candle is burning is limited. It's actually the mottling itself that helps the most with fragrance retention. It represents spaces between the wax crystals where the FO can hang out instead of sweating out. As you reduce the mottling with more stearic, the candle can start to sweat fragrance from the unmottled patches.

The effects of stearic acid can vary with the particular materials you're using to make the candle and it can affect the burning properties for better or for worse. These effect can vary noticeably with just a small difference in the amount. Therefore, I think the best practice is to arrive at the best amount experimentally. Maybe start at 1% and work your way up in 1 or 1/2 percent increments to find the amount you want to use.

As for polycarbonate molds, I'm with Scented. Their performance and durability has been inconsistent for me. Doubtless if you keep using them you'll become an expert in how to get the best results, but I've personally found that life is happier if I just avoid them.

[radellaf]

Well the 2" pillar turned out only about half mottled with 3% stearic, and that same wax stuck to the polycarb. More stearic I presume would further inhibit mottling. I think I should try increasing the fragrance to 3 or 4% to see if that brings out more mottling and/or improved mold release. It would be an improvement if I could get a similar looking candle to straight 1343 even if it still sweated, if it was a bit harder and had a bit more fragrance.

Of course, if the effects of mold release and mottling are not monotonically related to FO and stearic, then all bets are off. (i.e. could 1% stearic release easier than 3%?) You did mention starting with 1%...

In which case, I'd only use polycarbonate molds only with 2-3% FO and no additives, since the sweating seems to reliably allow mold release. Sure that will damage the molds over time, but so be it.

I'll still play with the vybar and stearic to see if I can get better, more uniform burning of the metal molded 2 and 2.5" pillars. Be nice if there was a ready recipe, but it doesn't seem that candlemaking works that way.

[radellaf]

What I'm seeing in the picture looks like that part of the candle that isn't ready to release from the mold just yet. Does that wet spot look go away if you press in that area?

The wet looking spot is where the wax wasn't released yet, and did go away with some pressing.

The problem is that pattern you see on the area that _has_ released, is wax stuck to the inside of the mold. Ever seen a pattern like that before?

And thanks everyone for the advice. Doesn't sound like I'm making any obvious mistakes. Perhaps, if 1343 doesn't generally stick to polycarbonate, I just have a quirky batch of wax.

[Scented]

OK let's try a different approach. Get some mold cleaner ... not the water and soap stuff ... get some cleaner that will work with polys and clean up the mold. Yes, I've seen that stuff before. I used to think acrylic molds were grand as well, but really they bite as much as polys. You're going to need to feel with your hands the spots that are coming out like they are ... feel the smooth areas then feel that area. Mark it with tape if you need to. See if there's a difference.

You might like polys, but that's an expensive way to make the size of candle you're making ... sometimes you get one shot on these and sometimes you don't.

There is a set formula -- it's what works for you in your climate. Hate to say that, but if you want a straight mottle, I'd suggest switching to a wax that is supposed to mottle. If you want to get it with straight 1343, that's fine too, but you're going to have to up your FO percentages to get it and still use steric or vybar etc. if you want your candle to last longer. The wax will take up and over 6% with additives. Steric at 3 heaping tablespoons does cut down on the mottling for me ... it doesn't at 2 heaping tablespoons, which I've found that in my climate and my mix, works just fine to cut back on the weeping.

I still suspect your rough spots in the mold are damage spots. Polys just aren't made to hold up under FO use. An aluminum mold will get you the same thing ... ought to. Sure, the coolness of seeing your candle isn't there, but hey, more of a surprise for later.

[Dustpuuppy]

For what it's worth...

I didn't use IGI wax. I was using the other brand of straight paraffin. I mixed 3 Tablespoons of stearic and some vybar 130 ( 3 teaspoons, I think). I always used 5-6% FO. Plus whatever dye.

I didn't get any mottle from this mix. No sweating and good mold release. I used to get some pinholes til I started using a water bath. I always poured a little to the hot side. Had a bad habit of melting plastic molds.

I realize you want mottleing. I didn't. But some of the above may help you zero in on your problem.

Have you tried pouring just a touch hotter? Not sure why I think that would help but something is niggleing at the back of my pea brain and telling me that it will.:rolleyes2

[topofmurrayhill]

I just have a bad feeling about those poly molds. It's not just that they can deteriorate over time. One wrong move and the mold can be scarred for life, even if the damage isn't readily apparent. And it seemed to me that the condition of the mold affected candle release quite a bit, which could muddy your results.

A quick note about paraffin. It might be a good a idea to try different kinds for mottled candles rather than just committing to making a particular one work. Like Scented pointed out, there are mottling waxes than are made to be more consistent for this application, like IGI 1274.

1343 is, on the average, more isoparaffinic than 1274, which makes it a little more pliable when warm and a little less prone to mottle. The isoparaffin content also seems inconsistent. The lots range from mottling "lots" to not mottling at all. The non-mottling ones aren't usually sold by candlemaking suppliers, but they've been known to creep into stock.

1274 mottles consistently and generally mottles more. It stands up better to stearic if you're looking for an overall mottled effect.

[radellaf]

I have some 1274 I could try with more FO. At 3-4% I definitely was not getting as much mottling as I'd like, and 5-6% is more of a load than I'd like to use. Parol oil is always an option I suppose.

Vybar 343 says it can increase mottling in "waxes intended to mottle", by which I assume they're referring to 1274, so that's another line to try.

Those first few 1343 pillars with the overall fine-grained mottling were exactly what I was looking for, though. Probably better to try to "perfect" a formulation with 1274 than 1343, if 1343 isn't going to be as consistent. Also, I have zero problems with mold release with 1274.

[topofmurrayhill]

Maybe the isoparaffin content of 1343 contributes to your mold release problems. It would tend to make the wax shrink more evenly and not pull away from the sides of the mold as much. In seamless aluminum you'd never notice the difference but maybe it matters in the polycarbonate.

Normally, 1274 mottles like crazy and does the fine-grained overall mottle pretty easily. Maybe it's the difference in the way the plastic molds cool. If you're not getting the effect you want, the easiest way to change it could be to just play with the pouring temperature. In aluminum I'd suggest pouring at 180 and cooling normally, but maybe try one at 170 and see what you get - it can make all the difference.

I've tested Vybar 343 every which way imaginable and didn't find that it does anything useful as a candle additive. As for parol oil, that's a brand name for Penreco mineral oil. You can get equivalent 70 weight mineral oil at the drugstore cheap. I'm not big on using that in pillars, but you could.

Edited November 10, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[radellaf]

It could be something about the surface, but considering two of the molds were never used, I doubt it's damage. Can't see or feel anything, in any case. I've seen mold cleaner as well but I don't think it's worth getting some to diagnose this.

I can try hotter pours or more stearic or mold release, but it sounds like it might be more efficient to give 1274 more of a chance. I haven't used it much, and if I can get it to work, then I wouldn't have any need of 1343. Unless I did want to get into cut & carve, but I don't care to set up dedicated pigmented wax dipping tanks in my small space.

If nothing else, I'll keep using the polys for feather palm. They fall right out, and the crystal pattern hides minor mold surface damage. Also, for layered candles, the clear molds are almost essential.

Flickr Source

[Dustpuuppy]

Actually, a lot of us do layered candles in metal molds. It's not as hard as you think. I just stand a ruler up beside the mold. Amazing how close you can get it, just by eyeballing it, that way.

Also, you may be able to polish out some of the mold damage with some old pantyhose/stockings.

[radellaf]

Hmm, maybe I'll try a 2.5" or 3" layered one in metal. My largest poly is 2".

I tried Novus (step 2) plastic polish, which really should have done the job, but as far as I could tell it didn't do anything. I could try the harsher step 1, but I'm afraid that would completely scratch it up. Or, some Simichrome, but the solvent in that might fog or dissolve it. Hadn't thought of stockings, though. I think the cinnamon FO I used at the beginning did some damage to my egg and one cylinder mold, but since I stopped using that they seem to be doing fine. The palm wax releases a good bit of oil so I assume eventually that will affect them, but so far so good.