Making a consitant votive

[Craftedinthewoods]

I am wanting to add soy votive candles to my product offerings. But for the last 2 weeks I've been testing votives I've made and have not been able to achieve the same results twice!

I'm being very careful when pouring to keep the temp right around 170 with my heat gun. Yet when I test burn I never have 2 votives burn the same. I burn in tight fitting votive containers & no drafts. Yet one may leak the wax down around the base and then there will be a large hang on one side while the next one (same scent, same wick) will burn evenly with only a little hang up.

On another side by side votive test one may burn quite nicely and the other (again - same scent same wick) will have a little tired flame that seems to be drowning!

When I've tested a larger wick that minimizes any hang - the votive only burns for 10 to 12 hours. That doesn't seem acceptable to me since you can buy quality votives that burn 15 to 17 hours, according to their labels at least. (I've seen this on line)

I'm not familiar with how a votive should burn as I have never been much of a votive user myself. But I have a line of container candles that I'm very proud of and am beginning to develop a great reputation for and I only want to add a votive that measures up to those standards.

I need advice, Please.

[Stella1952]

What kind of wax, what kind/how much FO, any additives/amts, what type/size wicks?

Oh yeah, and what weight (size) votives?

Edited November 3, 2009 by Stella1952

[Craftedinthewoods]

I use EL votive blend (soy), up to .8 oz. FO per lb of wax (depends on which FO - some are super concentrates and I use less).

I heat wax to 180 ish then add FO and pour at 170. These instructions came from the person I bought the wax from.

They are 2 oz. voitves.

Also, is it not realistic for me to shoot for a 15 to 17 hour votive? 2 of my scents so far I've achieved a 16 to 17 hour burn with a clean container at the end (although they didn't burn the same way... but the end was a clean jar). But others I've tested will have a clean container at the end of only 12 hours - and smaller wicks burn to 15 -17 but the containers aren't clean. grrrrr...

[Scented]

I'd say with soy, you aren't getting a good burn if you're just getting 10-12 hours. Sounds like your wick is too large, but then you didn't answer Stella's questions about additives and what type of wick you're using so you aren't likely to get more specific answers.

All the soy people I know say that the wax burns longer than paraffin, but with yours burning at 10-12 hours, it isn't.

How are you wicking? That will cause awkward burns if the wick isn't centered our taunt etc. regardless of what wax you use, but with the right wick it should catch up.

IN another thread of yours, I see you're wanting to sell these, but I think you need to become more familiar with what a votive is and how they work and get a consistent burn time going with them before you offer such a product.

[celicagtca]

I don't think she's adding additives to the EL votive wax as it comes premixed. Try the HTP63'2 or 73's and make sure your wicks are centered. To much dye can have an impact on the way the votive burns also. The reason I mention both of those wicks is that certain fragrances have an impact on the burn as well. Some require larger wicking while other oils don't need such a robust flame.

[Craftedinthewoods]

No I don't add anything else to my wax. My understanding is that I don't have to with the EL votive wax. They pour nicely, slip right out of the molds and don't have any cracks or flaws in them. I think I'm happy with that part.

About selling them... Yes I've backed off until I do more testing.

The wicks I use are cd 6's & 8's. I've been happy with those for some other candles I've made. Initially I tried several cdn wicks as well but the cd's gave better results.

I use wick pins so the wicks are centered and tight. I don't add dye to any of them.

So how do you recomend testing these. I'm guessing... I'll repeat the same tests I've done by burning 3 hours at a time and recording results. But I'll also do several torture tests again - burning them all day and see what happens.

I've only tested them in tight fitting containers. Do you ever test yours in the rolly polly containers or something else too big just to see what happens?

[Stella1952]

The wicks I use are cd 6's & 8's

I use CD5-7 for my Ecosoya PB votives.

I tried several cdn wicks as well but the cd's gave better results

Where did you find CDNs in sizes smaller than 8s?

They are 2 oz. voitves

Be sure to WEIGH them and not just *assume* that they weigh 2 oz. each - they can be fractions over or under depending on the wax type and mold used. If the candles are under or over weight, it affects the total burn time.

I'll repeat the same tests I've done by burning 3 hours at a time and recording results

You should be testing for 1 hour per inch of candle diameter. Get the wicking down for that time period before you do a powerburn. Weigh the candle initially, then before the second burn. Subtract to find the total weight change (amount of wax consumed in ounces or grams) then divide the amount of consumption by the amount of time to find the RoC per hour. Do this each time before relighting the candle until it self-extinguishes.

is it not realistic for me to shoot for a 15 to 17 hour votive?

15-17 hours is not "the impossible dream" - it means that IF the chandler's instructions are followed, you can expect the candle to burn for that length of time (if that's the length of time the candle was designed and tested to burn by the chandler). If they don't follow instructions, oh well...

Just because a candle is burned in a tight fitting container, does not mean that you should not recenter the wick as needed. You may have to turn the container every so often if the melt pool is becoming off-center. Some containers have irregular bottoms which are not level - this can cause the candle to burn off to one side.

Do you ever test yours in the rolly polly containers or something else too big just to see what happens?

Yep. The candle becomes soft and blows out or spills over and then too much wick is exposed and the whole thing turns into a torch.

There is a REASON we put safety instruction stickers on the bottoms of candles! Whether customers choose to read & follow safe candle burning practices is a matter of personal choice and common sense - while I always do a powerburn or two once I have the wicking where I want it, I am simply checking what might happen if a FOOL burns my candles! I may wick down one if I find the candles become too hot when powerburned. I NEVER encourage customers to do this!

I expect people to have enough sense to READ and FOLLOW instructions to: straighten wicks, turn containers that are burning off-center, to trim wicks, not to burn in a draft and to burn for the amount of time that the candle is engineered for (for a 1¾" votive, that's one hour 45 minutes, or roughly 2 hours). If they follow instructions, they will get the best performance. HTH

[Craftedinthewoods]

I use CD5-7 for my Ecosoya PB votives.

Where did you find CDNs in sizes smaller than 8s?

Be sure to WEIGH them and not just *assume* that they weigh 2 oz. each - they can be fractions over or under depending on the wax type and mold used. If the candles are under or over weight, it affects the total burn time.

You should be testing for 1 hour per inch of candle diameter. Get the wicking down for that time period before you do a powerburn. Weigh the candle initially, then before the second burn. Subtract to find the total weight change (amount of wax consumed in ounces or grams) then divide the amount of consumption by the amount of time to find the RoC per hour. Do this each time before relighting the candle until it self-extinguishes.

15-17 hours is not "the impossible dream" - it means that IF the chandler's instructions are followed, you can expect the candle to burn for that length of time (if that's the length of time the candle was designed and tested to burn by the chandler). If they don't follow instructions, oh well...

Just because a candle is burned in a tight fitting container, does not mean that you should not recenter the wick as needed. You may have to turn the container every so often if the melt pool is becoming off-center. Some containers have irregular bottoms which are not level - this can cause the candle to burn off to one side.

Yep. The candle becomes soft and blows out or spills over and then too much wick is exposed and the whole thing turns into a torch.

There is a REASON we put safety instruction stickers on the bottoms of candles! Whether customers choose to read & follow safe candle burning practices is a matter of personal choice and common sense - while I always do a powerburn or two once I have the wicking where I want it, I am simply checking what might happen if a FOOL burns my candles! I may wick down one if I find the candles become too hot when powerburned. I NEVER encourage customers to do this!

I expect people to have enough sense to READ and FOLLOW instructions to: straighten wicks, turn containers that are burning off-center, to trim wicks, not to burn in a draft and to burn for the amount of time that the candle is engineered for (for a 1¾" votive, that's one hour 45 minutes, or roughly 2 hours). If they follow instructions, they will get the best performance. HTH

How did you do that quote thing? You answered separate parts of a quote...

Candle Cacoon sold me small packs of cdn-4, 6, 8 & 10. It isn't on her site, but she had them for me to try.

So do you wick to achieve a full melt poot in the first 1 hour 45 minutes when testing votives? In my early base tests (wax without scent) I burned for 3 hours and got a full pool with my cd 10 and cdn 10 but the flame was so high I didn't like it at all. Too hot! I don't think I could get a full melt pool in the first 2 hours without wicking up so far as to get a hot flame. (that's why I tested for 3 hours at a time...)

When I tested so far I tried not to interfere with the candle. It sounds like I should be positioning the wicks if they are curling over or leaning?

I also saw in some of my tests that the larger wicks were burning so high that the wicks got 'floppy' and bent over and drown themselves. Have you seen this? I took that to mean the wick was too large.

Sounds like selling votives includes much customer education.

[Stella1952]

How did you do that quote thing?

Here's a link to a discussion of BBCode tags and how to use them.

So do you wick to achieve a full melt pool in the first 1 hour 45 minutes when testing votives

Not necessarily... votives are little guys so they usually achieve FMP a little quicker than do containers or larger candles, but mine are usually pretty close to FMP at the end of the first test burn. It isn't necessary to achieve FMP on the first burn.

I burned for 3 hours and got a full pool with my cd 10 and cdn 10 but the flame was so high

While I do not use the same wax as you do, so yours may be harder to burn than Ecosoya PB or NatureWax C3, a CDN 10 sounds like it would be a torch in that size candle!

When I tested so far I tried not to interfere with the candle.

Besides just being part of routine candle burning, just the fact that you had so much problems with your wicks curling over, etc. tells me there's a problem! Stabilos have a self-trimming posture and it is normal for them to curl slightly and to burn hotter on one side (the side of the curl). If one wants a symetrical, even burn, one has to keep an eye on the melt pool and straighten the wick slightly when needed to keep the MP centered and the heat from the flame evenly distributed.

To what length are you trimming your wicks? This has a LOT to do with how the candle burns! I trim the wick on a votive initially to between 1/8" & 1/4" and I trim before each test burn when the wick is cold. Again, this is part of normal candle maintenance that one does to get the best performance from a candle.

Sounds like selling votives includes much customer education.

No more so than any candle... I think many customers *think* they know how to burn a candle (ya just light the wick, right?) but they really don't... It's up to each of us to put warning stickers on candles and instruct our customers in best burning practices that will not only make burning the candle as safe as possible, but also to help them get the most enjoyment from it.

[Jokerjen]

I use that wax aand use HTP83, 52 or 72's.....

[topofmurrayhill]

Sorry but that thing about engineering votives to burn for 2 hours is nonsense. That's not the idea of a votive candle at all. The diameter is completely irrelevant. You should be able to burn a votive for as long as you like.

The most realistic test for a votive candle is a power burn. I test mine by lighting them and waiting for them to burn out, which is 18+ hours. If it lasts less than 15 hours, then you have an obvious problem: too big a flame in too small a glass.

Most handcrafted votives I've tried burn like crap. The flame (and often the mushroom) just grows and grows the longer you burn it.

If for some reason it's not possible to design a properly burning votive with vegetable wax, then it should at least work well for 3 or 4 hour burns. That's kind of marginal though.

Edited November 9, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[Stella1952]

Sorry but that thing about engineering votives to burn for 2 hours is nonsense. That's not the idea of a votive candle at all. The diameter is completely irrelevant. You should be able to burn a votive for as long as you like.

Sorry, Top, but I respectfully disagree. I don't think that votives are different from other candles with respect to testing. While I agree that one should do a powerburn test to ensure the wick chosen isn't gonna burn too dang hot, that should happen as a check AFTER the wicking has been dialed-in. The longest burntimes happen when the votive is extinguished at regular intervals, just like with larger candles.

Most handcrafted votives I've tried burn like crap. The flame (and often the mushroom) just grows and grows the longer you burn it.

Perhaps this is what happens when people don't think the whole thing through and just burn votives without understanding that they are, after all, just little pillar/container candles. Their wicks need trimming just like larger candles!

The original intent of votive WAS to powerburn them for prayers, etc., but modern votive usage is different. Set up at the back of a church, no one is going for fragrance or beauty - they are looking for longevity. Different purpose.

If for some reason it's not possible to design a properly burning votive with vegetable wax, it should at least work well for 3 or 4 hour burns. That's kind of marginal though.

When TESTING votives, I follow the same regime as I do with any candle to determine the basic wicking - 1 hr. per inch of diameter. Then I powerburn to ensure that the thing won't become a torch. When I burn them for myself at home, usually it IS a powerburn, lit just before dark and hanging in until after dawn the next morning. I get at least 15 hours - more if I have used a shorter-necked wicktab and extinguished the candle at intervals. As for designing veggie wax votives, pillar palm wax is my favorite. Good slowburning wax.

[topofmurrayhill]

What's so modern and beautiful about a votive that's designed to burn in short little stints? That's just lame. A normal candle burning session is 3 or 4 hours. That's what it should be designed for at minimum.

You've just made up a rule here and you're respectfully disagreeing with the inconvenient reality. Candle diameter has nothing whatsoever to do with designing votives. People need to be able to burn them for a reasonable amount of time. Maybe leave them lit for a party or something without having to worry about them turning into little torches.

Handcrafted votives are crummy enough without telling people they're supposed to be that way.

Here are some additional thoughts on the original question of consistency:

Votive pins aren't always perfectly centered or perpendicular. Acceptable votive cups can range from the extra tight ones that break the rim when you stick the votive in, to the ones that have a little extra space to hold them closely but comfortably. Those factors are going to produce some variation in how they burn.

What you want is a design that's robust. Even with the variations in the burn, nothing ever goes terribly wrong and the user doesn't need to worry about or baby the candle. It shouldn't be a big deal if the wick isn't perfectly centered or something.

If you find the design isn't reliable enough (you burn them under different circumstances and the performance often isn't acceptable), then you try variations to improve it. Change the fragrance amount, change the wick size or type, or change the wax in some way until the burn isn't prone to problems.

Generally, I don't think votive candles should need much if any wick trimming. Mine don't need any while burning or before relighting. Maybe soy wax doesn't allow for this, but I would try.

Designing a good votive can be as challenging as anything else in candlemaking. Getting a good 2 hour burn might make it worlds easier -- and moves a lot of crummy candles into the "good" category -- but it's entirely insufficient. You don't give someone a dinky little candle and tell them they have to burn it "just so" to make it work right, and baby it and fiddle with the wick. That's unreasonable and unrealistic.

Edited November 9, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[Stella1952]

A normal candle burning session is 3 or 4 hours. That's what it should be designed for at minimum.

You've just made up a rule here and you're respectfully disagreeing with the inconvenient reality.

With all due respect, sounds like there's a lot of that "rule makin' up" goin' around... I gave my opinion - you gave yours. I don't really think we have a fundamental disagreement - I think you are hung up on the amount of time I use to test, which is the same *standard* amount of time used to test other candles. It's a static number. Design yours for more, or less or whatever blows yer skirt... just be sure you are trying to get the longest total burn time from it, which is where we began...

People need to be able to burn them for a reasonable amount of time.

Which is what, exactly?

Maybe leave them lit for a party or something without having to worry about them turning into little torches.

I dunno about you, but when I have a party, I keep an eye on my votives, tealights, bonfire, barbeque pit - in short ANYTHING that has a flame. I don't just light em and forget 'em. :rolleyes2 You can burn 'em for however dang long you wish, Top, which is precisely why I follow up the 1 hour per inch of diameter test to get the wicking close, with a powerburn test, to be sure it DOESN'T turn into a freakin' torch... but the original point of this thread was about how long a votive *should* burn and if the 15+ hour soy votive is an impossible dream... :rolleyes2

You don't give someone a dinky little candle and tell them they have to burn it "just so" to make it work right, and baby it and fiddle with the wick. That's unreasonable and unrealistic.

Oh, for Pete's sake, Top... By your same line of reasoning, I don't think you should give someone a big ol' honkin' candle and tell them they have to burn THAT "just so" to make it work right, or baby it or fiddle with the wick!! Customer instructions, warning labels and suggestions for best performance are not unheard of in the industry ya know!!

Handcrafted votives are crummy enough without telling people they're supposed to be that way.

I don't recall reading anyone telling anyone in this thread that handcrafted candles are crummy OR that they are supposed to be ... I think you said that... :rolleyes2

Votive pins aren't always perfectly centered or perpendicular. Acceptable votive cups can range from the extra tight ones that break the rim when you stick the votive in, to the ones that have a little extra space to hold them closely but comfortably. Those factors are going to produce some variation in how they burn.

If it's so tight that it breaks the rim off the candle , it wouldn't be nearly as acceptable to me as one that was a LITTLE looser... Some have wavy bottoms, too, holes are not always perfect, octagon shaped votives, straight sided ones, flare-rimmed ones, square ones... Might burn 'em outside on the deck or inside in the bathroom, too... LOTS of different combos actually, which is WHY one might wanna keep an eye on the candle and recenter ("fiddle with") the wick if necessary, unless you just like cleaning soot off one side of the container and extinguishing cats on fire! :rolleyes2

Speaking of soot, did someone burn your toast this morning?

[topofmurrayhill]

You act as though I'm being arbitrary, but votives have been around a long time and I don't know when they suddenly turned into fussy little things that are designed for 1 3/4 hour burns. You're taking this 1 hour per inch thing way too literally and sagely explaining to people how this applies to votive candles when actually it has nothing to do with votives.

Personally I would design them with no time limit, but if there's going to some optimum session time then it should be comparable to other candles. 3 or 4 hours is consistent with most of the candles on the market and just about about any standard testing protocol you can find.

Votives aren't supposed to burn for a shorter time than other candles just because they're small, and you test them the way they're designed to be used. Either a normal-length burn session, or if you've really designed them optimally you can just light them and see how they burn down.

I think people can decide whether my advice is more sensible and leads to a better product.