Candle Test

[DerekB]

I'm new to candle making and this site. I've already learned a lot from reading everyone's posts. I'll apologize in advance if my questions are redundant.

This past weekend I poured my first candles. Below are the details:

• 1lb Ecosoya Container Blend 135 Soy Wax
  
• 1oz Cranberry Citrus Fragrance Oil
  
• 3" wide 8oz tin
  
• No dye
  
• Pre-tabbed Cotton Core Wicks (C-60)
  
• I heated to 185 degrees, added fragrance, poured at 125 degrees
  
• I let the candles sit untouched for 48 hours before burning

I'm now burning one of the candles and have a couple of questions.

1. Can I tell if I'm over wicked on the first burn? The candle has been burning for just about an hour and a half and the pool is 2" wide and 1/2" deep. Is it over wicked?

2. I have it burning in a large room. What is the ideal size room to get a "true" idea of scent throw?

3. I notice some "sweating" on the candle surface. Is this normal or should the candle have sat longer before burning?

4. The wick is curling slightly and has a little mushrooming. Is this normal?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

[Sara]

Hi DerekB - welcome to the forum.

I moved your post to the Veggie section since it applies.

It is good to give it a few burns before making a final judgement on the candle. Mark your observations (like the initial mushrooming, sweating) as a guide for later. It does sound like you may have overwicked, or just need a smaller wick for that scent/wax combo.

[DerekB]

Thank you for the feedback. I burned another one of my candles from this first pour. This candle had the wick perfectly centered and it seems to be burning really nice (correct pool width and depth). Obviously, I'll continue to test these two until they are completely burned.

From everyone's past experience, what is the most efficient way to test container, wick, and fragrance combinations?

Again, thank you for the feedback.

[Stella1952]

Derek, there is a LOT of information about testing to be found by searching the forums! There are no short cuts to good testing. Yes, you can determine if a candle is OVERwicked on the first burn - especially of you reach FMP before the testing burn time (1 hour per inch of inside diameter) has not elapsed and the container is too hot to handle. But if the results are not so cut and dried, you must continue to determine if indeed the container is overwicked. Determining if the candle is UNDERwicked usually takes multiple burns, unless the wick drowns.

It is not unusual for candles to "sweat" especially during the first burn. High humidity, cool ambient room temperature, etc. can also have a bearing on syneresis.

I am not aware of there being an "ideal" size room to determine hot throw. Obviously a tiny room would be more easily fragranced than an enormous great room with high ceilings. Try to pick an average sized room with no drafts.

[DerekB]

Stella,

Thank you for your response. I'm not looking for a short cut to testing...I just want to make sure I'm testing logically and efficiently. I am 100% on board for testing to the nth degree.

I burned one of my other candles last night and it burned really nice. I'm going to continue testing tonight (and so forth) until they are completely burned. I also ordered some different wicks to test those as well.

Thanks for the input.

[DerekB]

Well I'm doing my third round of burn tests on my candle.

I still have not achieved a full melt pool. Unlike yesterday, the candle is not throwing much scent and I have about 1/2" of tunneling (1/2" of wax up the sides. I've only achieved a melt pool of 2" in my 3" tin. As I'm just starting to learn this craft, I thought I'd try to confirm my suspicions...the wick is probably too large (as I originally suspected) and burned so fast that not only did it tunnel, but it also burned off the fragrance?

The only other question I have is...if the wick is too large, wouldn't I have achieved a full melt pool and not tunneled?

Sorry for sounding so confused. I've ordered other wicks in various sizes and plan to do a lot more testing. I just want to make sure that the size wick is what I should attack first versus type of wick.

Thanks for the help.

[Jeana]

Well I'm doing my third round of burn tests on my candle.

I still have not achieved a full melt pool. Unlike yesterday, the candle is not throwing much scent and I have about 1/2" of tunneling (1/2" of wax up the sides. I've only achieved a melt pool of 2" in my 3" tin. As I'm just starting to learn this craft, I thought I'd try to confirm my suspicions...the wick is probably too large (as I originally suspected) and burned so fast that not only did it tunnel, but it also burned off the fragrance?

The only other question I have is...if the wick is too large, wouldn't I have achieved a full melt pool and not tunneled?

Sorry for sounding so confused. I've ordered other wicks in various sizes and plan to do a lot more testing. I just want to make sure that the size wick is what I should attack first versus type of wick.

Thanks for the help.

If the wick is too large it can burn off the wax faster than it has time to pool, so it will burn down into the candle.

The only way to know if it is the wick size or the type of wick that needs to be changed is keep going down in sizes of the wick type you are using. If you think you are in between sizes, or you still are not getting the results you are looking for, then it would be good to try a different type of wick.

There are so many different types of wicks, it can really get confusing. Try to keep it as simple as you can.

You also asked if mushrooming with cotton core wicks is normal, and yes it is.

[DerekB]

Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm definitely learning a lot as I go through the site.

I do have one other question...

I know that there are a ton of different wicks available. In my initial test, I used Pre-tabbed Cotton Core Wicks (C-60) with Ecosoya Container Blend 135 Soy Wax. Based on the results of my burn test, I was planning on going down a size. However, I want to make sure that the Cotton Core Wicks are the best wick to start with. I know that in general you should use what works, but CandleScience recommends LX wicks. Any thoughts one way or the other?

I'm sure I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be! Thanks!!

[kimmeroo]

Hi Derek...

I love the Cd wicks or the CSN wicks(which is made especially for soy) I am not familiar with the LX since it's been about 7 years that I used them..I am pretty sure,since I switched,I didn't like them.I have tested 135 but then I went to 50 Advanced 50 415..but alot of ppl don't like Advanced because only certain fo's throw well in it and it takes up to 7-8 days to cure for some scents.That is why I mixed it..HTH..a little.?

Kimmeroo:smiley2:

[Stella1952]

Any thoughts one way or the other?

I like CDN wicks which are the same as CDs but have been soaked in a treatment to make the wicks more resistant to acids, which are prevalent in veggie waxes. I use them almost exclusively for all veggie waxes unless it's a very small candle. I don't have a good supplier for CDN sizes under 8, so I use CDs if I have to go under a CDN 8. HTH:)

[DerekB]

Kimmeroo and Stella,

Thank you for your feedback. For a 3" diameter container, where would you start for a CD/CDN wick size - CD/CDN 12?

Also, Kimmeroo...you mentioned curing. How do you know when a candle has cured completely? When I poured the CB 135, I let it sit for 48 hours before burning. Would that have been enough time?

Again, thank you for your assistance.

[Stella1952]

For a 3" diameter container, where would you start for a CD/CDN wick size - CD/CDN 12?

I use CDN 12 & 14 in my containers... depends upon the FO, the season, the wax blend.

About curing - some FOs seem to do fine after a couple of days... however, I find that most are enhanced by curing for about a week. Some FOs take even longer - generally delicate fragrances. It's not that they do not throw after a few days or a week - it's that they seem to throw better as they sit. The only way to tell is by testing and experience with the FOs you use. HTH

[kimmeroo]

Kimmeroo and Stella,

Thank you for your feedback. For a 3" diameter container, where would you start for a CD/CDN wick size - CD/CDN 12?

Also, Kimmeroo...you mentioned curing. How do you know when a candle has cured completely? When I poured the CB 135, I let it sit for 48 hours before burning. Would that have been enough time?

Again, thank you for your assistance.

Hi Derek!

About curing...I agree with Stella! If you want to test for the burn you can light it up 24-48hrs. after it's made. If you don't get a strong enough Cold Throw after 48 hours i would def. switch fo supplier and go on to another one.That is why testing is so important and buying fo in 1oz. bottles is best it will save you time, money and STRESS! LOL! Just like the wicks..if you are still testing those get the assorted pkg. it will also save a bunch of all of the above I mentioned! LOL! Ask me...I know! I am just getting back into the swing of things after about a year of taking a break! We moved to a different county and I was stressed and bummed...I didn't really want to start over in a new town..but now I am re-energized! i am getting the "ITCH" LOL! Good luck if there are any other question's..maybe I can help..if not I know someone else def. can.This is a great board full of great and talented ppl!

Good Luck... Kimmeroo

[DerekB]

Thank you for the information.

I'm really enjoying this craft...I just can't wait to get my first "good candle" that is properly wicked and I can do it repeatedly. I took everyone's advice and ordered a sample set of CDN wicks from Just By Nature last night.

Also, I poured three more candles to try a couple of LX wicks and a smaller cotton core wick. For some reason, the candles do not have the same cold throw as my first pour. I'm not sure if it's just me or if they need to sit longer. During the melting process, I ran into a dilemma measuring out the fragrance (I wasn't fast enough measuring out the oil and my scale shut-off). As a result, I got a little flustered and I think I screwed up the candles. I added the fragrance at 185 degrees as before, removed it from heat (where is dropped to about 175 degrees), at which point I thought to myself "was I suppose to leave it on the heat for a couple of minutes while stirring in fo"? As a result, I put the wax back on the heat for no more than 2 minutes and maintained a temp around 180 - 185 degrees. Then I took it off the heat, cooled, and poored at 125 degrees. Would this scenario do any "damage" such as burn off the fo? Also, I'm noticing that the wax slightly sunk from the sides of the tin container (not near the wick) . I'm assuming a heat gun will correct this?

Again, thanks for listening and any advice. I can't wait to have more experience under my belt to actively contribute to the community.

[kimmeroo]

I was reading on another forum and one lady adds 1oz. fo to every 14oz. of wax. She said it works out great for her and it saves alot of small steps. I Didn't know if it would be easier for you that way.?? I think I am going to try it,as soon as I get my jars! lol! Yep..I think the heat gun will do the trick!:smiley2: Keep us posted!

Kimmeroo

[DerekB]

Kimmeroo,

Thanks for the info. Just to double check, is it better to measure the amount of fo based on weight or volume? I've always assumed weight.

[Stella1952]

Weighing is the most accurate way to measure ingredients. I don't think that the small amount of time you held the wax at the higher temp would make an appreciable difference in the throw. Sometimes the dreaded "candle nose" can play tricks on you.

Adding 1 oz. to 14 oz. of wax will give a higher percentage FO than some waxes can hold without additives. I never make less than a pound batch, so that keeps it real simple for me. If that yields too much wax, I have other projects (votives, etc.) ready to receive the excess. If I have some left over, I pour it into a bathroom cup to use in layered candles down the road.

I put the wax back on the heat

Derek, are you melting the wax on direct heat, like a stove or electric coil burner? An electric coil or gas burner is much hotter than a Presto or electric skillet. If so, I HOPE you are melting in a double boiler as direct heating on a burner is not the best choice, both in terms of safety and temperature. A double boiler (or a container set into water in a pan over a burner) won't ever get over 212° F at sea level, which works great for melting veggie wax as most will not tolerate heating over 200° for very long without beginning to break down, discolor and burn.

[DerekB]

Derek, are you melting the wax on direct heat, like a stove or electric coil burner? An electric coil or gas burner is much hotter than a Presto or electric skillet. If so, I HOPE you are melting in a double boiler as direct heating on a burner is not the best choice, both in terms of safety and temperature. A double boiler (or a container set into water in a pan over a burner) won't ever get over 212° F at sea level, which works great for melting veggie wax as most will not tolerate heating over 200° for very long without beginning to break down, discolor and burn.

I've been using a hot plate (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1273992&cp=2568448.2626057.1260030&parentPage=family) on a low heat setting to melt the wax. I haven't noticed any discoloration or burn, but I'm not sure what other effects this would have on the soy. Should I assume that even though I'm using a hot plate, I should still do a double boiler? I plan on purchasing a Surf & Turf to melt my wax because I eventually want to do larger batches. I began using a hot plate because I saw CandleScience's demonstration where they used one and assumed it was okay. I guess shame on me?

Also, would this method have effected the way my candles burn?

[Stella1952]

Should I assume that even though I'm using a hot plate, I should still do a double boiler?

I can't speak for others, but I personally would not melt wax on a hot plate (electric coil) or a gas stove without a double boiler. Besides being more difficult to control the amount of heat being applied to the bottom of the melting pot, it's a safety hazard that I choose not to risk.

I guess shame on me?

Not at all. You were simply doing what you saw demonstrated.

would this method have effected the way my candles burn?

I don't think so in terms of burning, especially if you noted no discoloration or odor of overheated oil, but if the FO was overheated it could have affected the throw. Hard to say w/o more data...

When we first started, we melted wax in a huge vegetable can over a big pot of water on our gas range. We quickly moved up to using Prestos. They are thermostatically controlled and heat the bottom of the kettle with a single electric coil, like an electric frying pan. While the coil is hotter than 200°F, we can stir intermittently to keep the melted wax moving so that it doesn't become too hot on the bottom. The thermostat prevents the temp from going over the setting. The great thing about Presto pots is that they are very affordable (usually a little less than $20). We have three now and are looking forward to getting our first turkey fryer to handle larger batches.

[DerekB]

Okay...I just tested with LX - 14 and 16 wicks. I think the LXs have done okay... Unfortunately, I have not achieved a very good HT (I understand that this is subjective). Also, I believe the wicks are mushrooming too much (at least in my very unprofessional opinion).

Attached is a picture from the first burn with the LX-14.

Does this look normal? Based on the melt pool, did it burn to fast? I burned for exactly three hours and this was the result. Does the wick look like it's mushroomed too much? I plan to conduct further burns until the end. I'm not sure if anyone can share thoughts/suggestions based on this intial burn that I can use for future/ongoing tests.

Also, I will be getting my CDN wicks later this week and will test when they arrive.

Again, I appreciate everyone's help.

[topofmurrayhill]

It might be underwicked, but keep burning it and see. You can't always tell right off the bat. And when a wick looks really promising from the start, then there's even more work involved because you have to test it all the way down to the bottom.

That's especially true if you're using a metal tin. Those usually have to be a little underwicked or they'll get too hot at the bottom and burn fiercely, creating soot and whatnot. That means at the top you might not be getting full melt pools without longer burns.

I think the mystique around CDN wicks is overblown, especially since they can be more expensive and a PITA to get. A long time ago I did a good deal of testing with CB-135 and didn't notice the slightest difference with the specially treated wicks. You should be able to use plain CD, HTP or ECO if that's convenient for you.

Another thing I noticed is the sweating that you mentioned in your initial post. That doesn't seem to be unusual with this wax. Also the mushrooming. You can use the least mushroomy wick on earth (which LX is not) and burn this wax with no fragrance and it will probably still grow some gunk.

Finally, I never got HT worth a hoot with 1 oz per lb FO. Especially with a 3 inch tin, it might be good enough to scent a bathroom or a kitchen at best, so you might want to test with a little more fragrance if the throw doesn't seem to be up to par.

These days of course you can buy fragrances that are tested in soy, so make your life easy and stick to those. If you use an incompatible FO with CB-135, you might as well be making an unfragranced candle.

HTH.

[DerekB]

Topofmurrayhill -

Thanks for your feedback. If you don't mind me asking, what wax do you use now? I know I haven't tested long enough to determine if the Ecosoya CB135 is for me. It seems a lot of people like 464 or C3. Any thoughts?

Also, if I were to stick with CB135, what wick would you recommend (you had mentioned CD, HTP or ECO)? I tried cotton core and didn't like it. The LX is promising but I don't like the mushrooming. I plan to try the CDN. But outside of these what other wick would you recommend?

I'm sure in the end, I'll have tried every wick on the market. :rolleyes2

[kimmeroo]

Hi Derek...:smiley2:

Top has alot of wisdom and is usually on the nose with his knowledge...

I am testing C3..I used it along time ago(I started making candles 10yrs ago:rolleyes2 )..I am switching jars so I thought I'd try it again..it is a beautiful wax if only I can get the pouring temps right for my area. The weather,imo,has alot to do with waxes. I am tempering my wax now..my jars come tomorrow,I hope,then I can get to it. LOL!

I have a whole case of CBA and am going to use those for wickless.

Good luck in your testing..:smiley2: Kimmeroo

[topofmurrayhill]

If you don't mind me asking, what wax do you use now? I know I haven't tested long enough to determine if the Ecosoya CB135 is for me.

CB-135 has a decent balance of qualities, but personally I don't use anything. I tested a lot and sometimes I still test because I aways like to gain more expertise, but what I concluded about vegetable shortening candles is that I don't want to make them as a product.

I could mention various reasons, but one biggie for example is that soy shortening doesn't make a stable candle wax. Like any fat-based product you might have in your fridge, it changes over time and with environmental conditions. Candles can come out perfect but are liable to change in appearance, consistency and even volume. You don't know what might happen in storage, shipping, or in the hands of a buyer.

Hydrogenated oils can be good blending ingredients though.

Also, if I were to stick with CB135, what wick would you recommend (you had mentioned CD, HTP or ECO)?

Those are good ones to try. I lean towards ECO for soy candles, but that doesn't matter. You'll always learn more about candlemaking from testing stuff than following suggestions, so see what you think.

[Stella1952]

What a shame you haven't had a good experience with veggie wax candles, Top! I have come to enjoy them very much, and have found them to be reasonably stable in a wide range of temps, despite soy wax's sensitivity to thermal changes. Tempering the soy-based product that I use (NatureWax C3) helps a lot in making a candle that is more resistant to polymorphic changes in the wax and to have a greater shelf life. I get great hot throw with 1 oz. pp (depending, of course, on the particular FO), CDN wicks (both for soy and palm) and using USA as an additive in C3. Since veggie waxes are the only kind I have made, I cannot compare with paraffin except the store-bought ones I used during Katrina that were crappy candles by any yardstick!!! Haven't used any paraffin candles since then and am very excited about both the cold/hot throw and good burning characteristics of veggie wax candles, as are a LOT of customers out there...

Kimmeroo, WOW!!!! My eyeballs!!! Retinal burns!!!