Maximum Temperature for container candles

[R.S.]

I saw this on the Taylored Concepts website:

NOTE: THE ASTM has declared that 175º is the Maximum temperature that the Container can be when the melt pool has been achieved on your candles. Any thing above this can be a hazard. Please check your candles to comply with these standards.

How would I check to make sure I'm complying with this? Is everyone else doing this? I'm sure I'm ok because I can pick my candle up at any time and carry it without burning myself, but would like to know how hot my containers are getting.

[Stella1952]

I suppose you could get one of those fancy stick-on temperature strips to check the outside temp of the container... the infrared thermometers might handle the surface temp of the container also...

[R.S.]

well that's what I was thinking... where do you buy those temp strips?

[Stella1952]

Didn't have much luck finding liquid crystal thermometer strips that would go up to 200°F, but I did locate this source

http://www.q3i.com/thermohawk_series.php

(and many others) of infrared thermometers, etc. by Googling "surface temperature thermometer, 200°F"

HTH

'Course, you could always put some 175°F hot water in a jar, let the outside heat up, then see if it's too hot to hold... if not, then remember how hot it felt when you grab a test container. Not very accurate, I guess...

[Beth-VT]

Oh, 175° is way too friggin' hot to hold!! Our radiant floor system runs at 140° and I can't keep my hands on the copper tube at that temp.

[wakeylad]

I know this is an old thread but it's exactly was I was looking for. Does anyone know if the 175 degrees is still the standard?

I usually use my oven to heat my containers (minimum temp is 170 degrees F) and I have to use oven gloves most of the time to handle them. I can only hold with my bare hands for about a second or so - just enough time to take out and put on top of the stove.

[jeanie353]

I know this is an old thread but it's exactly was I was looking for. Does anyone know if the 175 degrees is still the standard?

I usually use my oven to heat my containers (minimum temp is 170 degrees F) and I have to use oven gloves most of the time to handle them. I can only hold with my bare hands for about a second or so - just enough time to take out and put on top of the stove.

There is a thermal stress test listed at the ASTM certification site and a thread about it active now on the forum about glass safety.

Also may want to google Martha Stewart/Slatkin and find the video where she has the owner of Slatkin candles on. He tells how to do the thermal shock test in about 3 seconds and does claim that is how we can tell if our container is candle safe. Don't know if its rock solid fail proof but seeing it came up in two places now, I'll buy it.......... But you may want to decide for yourself which way of testing you feel most comfortable with as far as safety

Edited March 8, 2012 by jeanie353

[wakeylad]

Jeanie:

I'll do a search for the video when I get home -- I tried to Google it but everything is blocked at work so I can't take a look right now. Luckily, they haven't blocked this site yet.

If you have a link to share, that would be great.

Thanks

Neil

[jeanie353]

Jeanie:

I'll do a search for the video when I get home -- I tried to Google it but everything is blocked at work so I can't take a look right now. Luckily, they haven't blocked this site yet.

If you have a link to share, that would be great.

Thanks

Neil

I'll see if I bookmarked it or can find it quick on Google for ya

Here it is...On the left side on the page under the photo of candles in cups. Its a very short part in there where he's talking about how to make them so you almost have to watch the whole thing

http://www.marthastewart.com/267615/container-candles

Edited March 8, 2012 by jeanie353

[Stella1952]

175° is way too friggin' hot to hold!!

Yep. That's what I go by, too. Common sense. Edited March 8, 2012 by Stella1952

[HorseScentS]

I saw this on the Taylored Concepts website:

NOTE: THE ASTM has declared that 175º is the Maximum temperature that the Container can be when the melt pool has been achieved on your candles. Any thing above this can be a hazard. Please check your candles to comply with these standards.

How would I check to make sure I'm complying with this? Is everyone else doing this? I'm sure I'm ok because I can pick my candle up at any time and carry it without burning myself, but would like to know how hot my containers are getting.

I thought they said it was 180 degrees, we're supposed to make sure the glass doesn't get hotter than 180 degrees. People know not to handle the flat side of an iron when it's hot, and they know not to grip the barrel of a curling iron when it's hot, and they know not to stick their hand inside a George Foreman Grill when it's hot, and they know to use potholders when handling hot cookware, so they should know not to grab a container candle that's burning. That's why the warning label tells them not to pick up the candle or move it while it's burning.

The ASTM wants the warning labels to be visible at point of sale, and if it's on the bottom, they want a note on the top label that says: "see safety instructions on the bottom label..." or something like that. I think that's a good idea.

Edited March 9, 2012 by HorsescentS

[chuck_35550]

I agree. Placing the warning on the bottom seems pointless, other than to cover up the wick assembly but then having a warning labe on top seems ugly too. As far as people having common sense? When I was a young man and prone to drinking too much; I once lit a cigarette by picking up the glass shade of a kerosene lamp. Thank God we had an aloe vera plant in the house and I stuck my hand in the freezer for an hour and there wasn't too much damage to my hand but in retrospect it was like, "Dude?" What were you thinking? Customers don't see candles as a fire hazard and I'm not sure we want them to be overly focused on that fact cause sales are hard enough these days. Maybe if they aren't hot to the touch people would be more prone to pick em up and slosh em around? By the way...I am not an addict (except to food).

Steve

Edited March 9, 2012 by chuck_35550

[Stella1952]

For me, if a container is too hot to handle, it's too hot to sell. This is a very good rule of thumb and predictor of the incidence of thermal failures in glassware. If it's too hot for you to handle, it has entered the area where you can't touch it to see HOW hot it is and a customer sure isn't gonna lay a thermometer on the glass to see... nor should they have to do so. I don't care if it's 165°F or 200°F - both are too hot for me to handle easily and are more likely to become problematic. Case closed IMHO.

Comparing the temperatures of an oil lantern and a container candle are like comparing apples and asparagus. The container candle has no handle nor way for it to be moved OTHER than to grasp it.

Customers don't see candles as a fire hazard

Au contraire, Pierre. You need to read up on WHY tarts, melts and flameless candles have become so popular with customers!!! People DO view candles as a fire hazard. Many will not have a candle in their home for this reason. Doesn't matter if I think that's a ridiculous load of hooey - it's a documented marketing fact.

But, hey - carry on with making those home fingerprint removers...

Edited March 9, 2012 by Stella1952

[TacoWax]

I use Infrared Thermometer. Just point and click and it give you an instant temp reading.

Harbor Freight has them on sale for $40 from $60 The sale is to Mar11. If you miss it they will have it on sale at a later date.

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html

I use it when cooking/bakng and to check the temp of my wax. It is off by11 degree (check the accuracy by clicking on some boiling water )

[HorseScentS]

I use Infrared Thermometer. Just point and click and it give you an instant temp reading.

Harbor Freight has them on sale for $40 from $60 The sale is to Mar11. If you miss it they will have it on sale at a later date.

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html

I use it when cooking/bakng and to check the temp of my wax. It is off by11 degree (check the accuracy by clicking on some boiling water )

Maybe your thermometer is correct, have you compared it to a digital thermometer and a candy thermometer in the same pot of wax? The boiling temperature of water varies:

"Question: What Temperature Does Water Boil?

At what temperature does water boil? What determines the boiling point of water? Here's the answer to this common question.

"Answer: Short Answer: The boiling point of water is 100°C or 212° F at 1 atmosphere of pressure (sea level).

"Better Answer: The boiling point of water depends on the atmospheric pressure, which changes according to elevation. The boiling point of water is 100°C or 212° F at 1 atmosphere of pressure (sea level), but water boils at a lower temperature as you gain altitude (e.g., on a mountain) and boils at a higher temperature if you increase atmospheric pressure (lived below sea level).

"The boiling point of water also depends on the purity of the water. Water which contains impurities (such as salted water) boils at a higher temperature than pure water. This phenomenon is called boiling point elevation, which is one of the colligative properties of matter http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingswork/f/boiling-point-of-water.htm

[chuck_35550]

The point of the story is how often we handle potentially dangereous substances or hot melted wax without thinking about what we are doing. I don't care how they are melting the wax, they are still applying heat to thourougly melt wax and the heat required is going to be hot not warm. Over time the heat build up is cumulative and so you ask customers to please not power burn their wax products for safety. Picking up molten wax is a bad idea period but plenty of people do that just like they unwittingly pick up the hot glass shade of a lantern or throw gas on a fire or any of the other hundreds of ways people disregard the danger of something hot. The only thing I can figure (Stella) is somehow you have overcome the natural laws of physics and are able to produce a candle than magically never gets hot..now that's hooey.

[Stella1952]

The only thing I can figure (Stella) is somehow you have overcome the natural laws of physics and are able to produce a candle than magically never gets hot

Of course not, Steve. I simply test to insure that when people burn my candles according to the instructions, that the exterior of the container does not become too hot to handle. I thought that was what I was supposed to do... :undecided

[SliverOfWax]

The point of the story is how often we handle potentially dangereous substances or hot melted wax without thinking about what we are doing. I don't care how they are melting the wax, they are still applying heat to thourougly melt wax and the heat required is going to be hot not warm. Over time the heat build up is cumulative and so you ask customers to please not power burn their wax products for safety. Picking up molten wax is a bad idea period but plenty of people do that just like they unwittingly pick up the hot glass shade of a lantern or throw gas on a fire or any of the other hundreds of ways people disregard the danger of something hot. The only thing I can figure (Stella) is somehow you have overcome the natural laws of physics and are able to produce a candle than magically never gets hot..now that's hooey.

She also seems to know exactly which container every person on earth uses and she knows none of them have handles.

She knows everything.

Case closed.

[beans]

I simply test to insure that when people burn my candles according to the instructions, that the exterior of the container does not become too hot to handle.

Its been talked about on here many times that most people will not follow instructions. So what happens then. Then they get to hot. I assume your candles get a FMP and if so how is the glass not hot to the touch?

[HorseScentS]

Its been talked about on here many times that most people will not follow instructions. So what happens then. Then they get to hot. I assume your candles get a FMP and if so how is the glass not hot to the touch?

You're right. I think if it's hot enough to melt the wax off the glass on the inside, it's going to feel hot on the outside at some point, especially when the level of the wax burns down lower in the jar. The NCA just says not to let the candle glass get hotter than 180 degrees, they don't say not to let it get hot to the touch.

[Beth]

I know this is an old thread but it's exactly was I was looking for. Does anyone know if the 175 degrees is still the standard?

I usually use my oven to heat my containers (minimum temp is 170 degrees F) and I have to use oven gloves most of the time to handle them. I can only hold with my bare hands for about a second or so - just enough time to take out and put on top of the stove.

When trying to find that ASTM standard, I found this from Bureau Veritas from 2008 - (Bureau Veritas is a global leader in conformity assessment and certification services. We are a trusted partner of our clients, offering services and developing innovative solutions to reduce risk, improve performance and promote sustainable development. )

Container temperature - filled candles and tealights

ASTM F2417-04 modified /

CPSD-HL-09401.01-MTHD/

UL 153 12th Edition

Table 125.1 modified

1

Measure the entire outside container surface temperature. Report the material type, maximum temperature and location.

Surface temperature shall not exceed listed material limits:

Max. Temp: Metal - 125° F / glass and other materials- 140° F

Note: Filled / container type candles only.

[HorseScentS]

When trying to find that ASTM standard, I found this from Bureau Veritas from 2008 - (Bureau Veritas is a global leader in conformity assessment and certification services. We are a trusted partner of our clients, offering services and developing innovative solutions to reduce risk, improve performance and promote sustainable development. )

Container temperature - filled candles and tealights

ASTM F2417-04 modified /

CPSD-HL-09401.01-MTHD/

UL 153 12th Edition

Table 125.1 modified

1

Measure the entire outside container surface temperature. Report the material type, maximum temperature and location.

Surface temperature shall not exceed listed material limits:

Max. Temp: Metal - 125° F / glass and other materials- 140° F

Note: Filled / container type candles only.

Thank you, Beth!

[EricofAZ]

I've stayed out of this thread because, well, quite frankly some of the replies have raised my ire.

The 175 degree max is OK for preventing most approved containers from cracking. But that's not enough.

http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html

Hot Water Causes Third Degree Burns…

…in 1 second at 156º

…in 2 seconds at 149º

…in 5 seconds at 140º

…in 15 seconds at 133º.

... from http://www.burnfoundation.org/programs/resource.cfm?c=1&a=3

Wax takes longer to cool than water so take those numbers and think "its worse."

If you use 125MP wax, why on earth is it necessary to burn so hot that the glass gets to 175?

Stella Leibeck was burned with 3rd degree burn injuries to her thighs and needed skin grafts in the McDonald's coffee case. The experts testified that the temp was about 165 degrees or so. (And with 700 prior burn victims, it was time to say enough is enough.) (Go read the real truth about that if you like. What was reported about the case in the press was very misleading.)

I believe we have a responsibility to our consumers and saying that caveat emptor "buyer beware" and that consumers should know they have hot candles is not enough.

We live in a "safe" society. We have electricity in the house that can kill in seconds, but its safe because of how it is wired and used.

Does that make people complacent? Yeah, probably does. Should we build hot and unsafe candles to avoid complacency? NO! We have to remember that there are many who can't read, are young, uneducated, etc., who like candles. So build a safe candle.

I test for abuseiveness. Sometimes I burn for 24 hours or more. I can get a good candle that forms a melt pool in a half hour (people want to smell it quickly) and still keep the glass touchable.

I'm going to warn, and direct people to the candles.org safety site for more information. But I'm not going to rely on that to give them a hottie that I know will burn if they make mistakes.

We can't protect against everything. Yes, it is hot. There is fire. Lets just try to minimize the injury if someone screws it up.

Edited March 22, 2012 by EricofAZ

[HorseScentS]

I've stayed out of this thread because, well, quite frankly some of the replies have raised my ire.

The 175 degree max is OK for preventing most approved containers from cracking. But that's not enough.

http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html

Hot Water Causes Third Degree Burns…

…in 1 second at 156º

…in 2 seconds at 149º

…in 5 seconds at 140º

…in 15 seconds at 133º.

... from http://www.burnfoundation.org/programs/resource.cfm?c=1&a=3

Wax takes longer to cool than water so take those numbers and think "its worse."

If you use 125MP wax, why on earth is it necessary to burn so hot that the glass gets to 175?

Stella Leibeck was burned with 3rd degree burn injuries to her thighs and needed skin grafts in the McDonald's coffee case. The experts testified that the temp was about 165 degrees or so. (And with 700 prior burn victims, it was time to say enough is enough.) (Go read the real truth about that if you like. What was reported about the case in the press was very misleading.)

I believe we have a responsibility to our consumers and saying that caveat emptor "buyer beware" and that consumers should know they have hot candles is not enough.

We live in a "safe" society. We have electricity in the house that can kill in seconds, but its safe because of how it is wired and used.

Does that make people complacent? Yeah, probably does. Should we build hot and unsafe candles to avoid complacency? NO! We have to remember that there are many who can't read, are young, uneducated, etc., who like candles. So build a safe candle.

I test for abuseiveness. Sometimes I burn for 24 hours or more. I can get a good candle that forms a melt pool in a half hour (people want to smell it quickly) and still keep the glass touchable.

I'm going to warn, and direct people to the candles.org safety site for more information. But I'm not going to rely on that to give them a hottie that I know will burn if they make mistakes.

We can't protect against everything. Yes, it is hot. There is fire. Lets just try to minimize the injury if someone screws it up.

So, what's to stop a customer from grabbing a hot light bulb? or sticking their hand on their range top when it's red hot? or sticking their finger in the flame of a candle? or touching the bottom of their iron while ironing clothes? or pressing a curling iron against their scalp? or placing their hand in their George Foreman grill or electric skillet?

Sure, someone could design those items listed above to operate at a much cooler temperature, but then they wouldn't work as well, if at all.

If the ASTM sets the maximum temp for the glass at 140 (or 175, or whatever it is) then that's a safe maximum temp for the glass of a container candle.

People have reflexes and if they touch something very hot, it's for less than one second.

Some of my candles sometimes get uncomfortably hot, especially towards the end, but it's still not hot enough to give me even a first degree burn even if I decide to hold onto it.

You can design your candles any way you want to, but didn't you post that your girlfriend complained that your candles weren't throwing as strong a scent as some other brand she liked, but you thought your candles weren't throwing as strong a scent because they burn cooler, and that she should appreciate the fact that your candle wouldn't burn her if she picked it up? Am I remembering correctly?

Some people would rather have a candle that's glass gets hotter, if the candle throws a stronger scent, or cleans the glass better, or whatever your girlfriend wants her candles to do, and they just have to be careful with it, like they are careful with their electric carving knife, their blow drier, and their electric cattle prod.

[EricofAZ]

Horsescents, you remember correctly. I probably do need to build mine a bit hotter but I doubt I'll ever go to 175 on the glass. I've had testers tell me the opposite, that they like the throw, but there's enough feedback to take the GF seriously.

Personally, I didn't think her Yankme candles threw better, just sooner. They seemed to get to FMP faster and that was the issue. I was working on a way to get a faster FMP without compromising the container temperature and now that I have some "stuff" out of storage I'll continue a bit more on this project.

I guess it would be appropriate to experiment a bit and see what the glass temp is when the FMP is 1/4 inch deep and when it is 1/2 inch deep and when it is 1 inch deep. That would be some data that I don't have at the moment.

I'm not saying we can fool proof candles. Heck, when you build a better foolproof candle, the world seems to produce a smarter fool.

I'm just saying that we ought to think about it and if we can build a better and safer candle, we should. I'm not ready to dismiss the science of this just because it seems difficult, but I know the safety of electricity and the safety of hot coffee and the safety of lawnmowers and bicycles and cars and turbine powered helicopters has been enhanced over the years. So I think we can look at a candle and ask the same question about how to make it safer. I'm sure you would agree.

Not all safety enhancements are efficient. Car batteries that first went to "waterless" to avoid hydrogen explosions didn't last as long as the ones that needed water to be added. Today they are better.

There are five ways that products get better over time. The first is the best - builders who want to make their stuff better and safer. Another is the gov't that regulates the product. Another is a banding together of builders in a guild or association that issues guidelines. Another is the consumer when they stop buying the product. The last (or first) is the court system that drives all the rest when someone is hurt and should not have been.

This last one is very effective in driving gov't and guilds to higher standards but probably the most heartrending because it means someone got hurt.

As for the GF picking up the candle, she's been educated and doesn't do that any more (Yeaah!). I recall another story on here about a gal who's aunt forgot and left one burning too long and tried to get it out the door and went to the hospital with burns. If people can let go in a second and drop it on the floor, no big deal, but people don't always do that. They mistakenly think they need to save the carpet, or worse, they drop it on themselves and probably can't strip their clothing and get to cold water fast enough - like Stella Leibeck.