Check out my new website!

[Absyrtus]

Well, I certainly got some advice. Most of it helpful. I appreciate what has been said, and have evaluated all of it for it's usefulness to me.

Mostly, at this point, I put my site up to get things started. I am confident in my product. My post a couple weeks ago was after I made two particularly ugly candles, and needed some encouragement. Lately I've only been producing good products, and if I happen to produce something that doesn't meet my my expectations and standards, I certainly won't sell it. I've got to start somewhere, and I feel confident that my candles are great candles, and that they are of superior quality. A look at some of the candles that I have made will prove to anyone that I am capable of making an awesome candle. In addition, as a responsible business person, and as a member of the scientific community, I certainly don't want to be involved in misleading anyone on technical matters. Just because other companies have over expressed the benefits of soy, doesn't mean that there are none. I sell soy candles, and it is only appropriate for me to express the benefits of soy wax as compared to paraffin wax. I am not bashing anyone, or even any product. I only state benefits of the material that I use in my candles over a more common and cheaper material, so that the customer understands my philosophy, and why they might expect to pay a little more.

I didn't intend on so much controversy! But, controversy can be good. I believe that my product is a bit different than what is being sold elsewhere, and I would like to make sure that that point is clear to my audience. I am confident that my marketing scheme is indeed non-offensive (except of course to those people who may be my competitors), and certainly if I receive any complaints about my material from my audience, things will change.

I really don't feel like discussing this any further. I wanted people criticisms... I never said that I didn't. I didn't agree with all of the criticism put forth, but that doesn't mean I did not take it into consideration. I sincerely appreciate everyones comments.

[Absyrtus]

In case anyone is interested, here is a journal article from the Journal of Oil Chemistry. Below is the abstract

"Combustion Characteristics of Candles Made from Hydrogenated Soybean Oil Karamatollah Rezaei, Tong Wang*, and Lawrence A. Johnson, Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, and the Center for Crops Utilization Research, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011.

Hydrogenated soybean oil, referred to as soywax by candle makers, is a renewable and biodegradable alternative to paraffin wax in candle manufacturing. Soywax was investigated for its tendency to produce soot as well as potentially harmful organic volatiles (acrolein, formaldehyde, and acetaldehyde) during combustion. Beeswax and paraffin candles were used as references. A considerable amount of soot was produced from the combustion of paraffin candles, but little or none was observed from soywax candles. Compared to paraffin candles, soywax candles burned at a significantly slower rate and required less air. Small amounts of formaldehyde were detected and quantified in the fumes of burning paraffin candles. However, formaldehyde peaks found in the chromatograms of soy- and beeswax candles were similar to or slightly higher than that of the blank. Since soywax candles exhibited burning properties similar to those of beeswax candles, soywax shows promise in candle applications.

Paper no. J10259 in JAOCS 79, 803-808 (August 2002)"

[joyofsoycandle]

"Small amounts of formaldehyde were detected and quantified in the fumes of burning paraffin candles. However, formaldehyde peaks found in the chromatograms of soy- and beeswax candles were similar to or slightly higher than that of the blank."

I may be stupid or slow to understand lol but to me, it says that in testing...that paraffin DOES emit toxins. So what does else does it mean when it says "formaldehyde peaks found in the chromatograms of soy- and beeswax candles were similar to or slightly higher than that of the blank" I take it that means that there was little to no toxins found to be emitted from soy and beeswax candles?

[StacysScentsations(DH)]

Ok I will make a couple of points. I am a member of the "Website Community".

I think you should resize the swf file to a width of 776. Even though 98% of internet users have a screen resolutions of 800x600 most browsers eat up some real estate so anything over 776 usually produces a side scroll which is not professional looking. On another not if you want your order system (which I kinda like) to be like that make a little more action go on as they select stuff so they know things are happening. either a sound or a flash or something to let them know what is going on. It is all happening "Below the fold" and very small. The other thing is email is not secure. So if you cannot produce a flash shopping cart that is secure you should just do away with the flash system and maybe have a nice flash header or intro. The other point is it is all flash, you will turn alot of people off without a dialup version. A good way to do it is to do a browser check and see if the flash plugin is active. If it is active give them flash if it isnt give them a static site. You will also never be found on search engines unless it is dynamic flash,(ie. reading all the content from html files) which I dont think it is or you would have an html version too. I also dont think you should put down another product or feel you need to compare like that. The comparisons you sight as checkboxes are sticky points and are all documented. In the real world you will get sued big time for degrading other businesses. Especially big ones that actually have a legal dept. All they need to do is drag a high priced mouth piece into court and say you cost them business by saying they claim they are something they arent. And if you cant prove it you will be making alot of awesome candles to pay for the lawsuit.

Now I am in business to and I can tell you that I would never bash your website to sell one of mine. I can sell my services on my product and only the quality of my product. I have done work for pixar and disney, etc. I am new to candlemaking too but in time your product will sell itself. There is alot of knowledge here, and very nice people willing to share it. Now If you decide you need some help tuning up youor site give me a shout. I will give you a hand. Please dont think I am bashing you.

Doug

[topofmurrayhill]

In case anyone is interested, here is a journal article from the Journal of Oil Chemistry. Below is the abstract

Research that was performed at an agricultural college receiving major contributions from Cargill. Apart from the the possibility of bias, it's a study subject to fair criticism that could completely invalidate it. It's also really old news and there is contradictory research that you're ignoring.

Obviously this is a controversial subject, but your position is considered either exaggerated or not credible by the mainstream of people in this community and, as far as I know, in the candle industry as a whole. That includes people who manufacture or sell or craft paraffin wax, vegetable wax and both. You are entitled to your opinion, but presenting just one side of the story to induce consumers to buy your products is manipulative regardless of what you personally believe. You may be small enough to get away with it, but I doubt your wax supplier or manufacturer does that.

Many a person has bought a case of vegetable wax, discovered (or not!) that they can make something non-fugly and has then set off down the marketing path that you're following. There's even a pyramid scheme based on that approach. But look around at the experience, knowledge, dedication and talent of the people who you're getting flack from. Which community do you really want to be a part of?

Candles are dangerous. They burn houses down all the time and people die. Poorly made candles of all kinds pose a major risk to indoor air quality. This community is about making a safe product and a clean-burning product regardless of what fuel it runs on. This community is about educating the consumer how to use candles properly and urging them to do so. This community is not about casting aspersion on others' products to sell your own, especially not on the basis of something so minor as what kind of wax you use.

So dude, get with the program!

[joyofsoycandle]

I definately do not agree with people putting down one product to make theirs look better. However, I DO want to know the actual facts, not just peoples opinions on which is or is not healthier for you, as far as which does or does not emit more toxins, and that type of thing. Which is what I personally am trying to do. I have been looking things up and trying to find out all I can. I am not the type of person to bash paraffin to make soy look good because I use soy. However, I want to use whichever products poses less risk to use. So I would like to see more facts about soy and paraffin, because it seems alot of them are just opinions.

I think everyone would love to make money from what they love to do. I am selling some candles I make already to people at my boyfriends work, but ONLY the fragrances I already tested. Yes, I have burnt the candles down to the bottom of the jar, and observed every detail of that candle before I decided to sell it. Anyhow, I think that regardless of when someone started making candles, as long as they have done the proper research and have tested what they are selling, and know for certain it is of good quality, that it doesnt matter if they learned how to do it all in a week or a year. Some people can easily learn things and some it takes longer.

So, I dont agree with the negative comments on the paraffin that are in the website mentioned in this post, i would delete those things. I would just state all the known benefits of soy and leave it at that. And if you have tested your products and are definately sure of there quality, then I dont think anyone should be concerned with how long it took to do so. One week, two weeks, 1 yr, 5 years. I know alot more experience comes with time, but if you have tested, and do know that your products are of good quality, then what would be the harm in selling them if you have done your homework and know what you are selling is worthy of selling. Peoples opinions here seem to state that no one can be ready to sell unless they have been making candles for so long....etc. So, again, if its worthy of selling and you know so by testing, then go for it. I dont care how long anyone has been doing what, as long as they know what they are doing!

I do like your website, and would just take the suggestions that have been mentioned about mispellings, and correct any errors and those types of things. And as I mentioned I think its best to just mention the benefits of your products being made with soy, and not compare them to paraffin. Anyone can mention the benefits of a product without putting down another product to do so. For example....I would make a statement such as "Supports American Farmers" rather than stating an opinion that Soy Promotes American Farmers, and Paraffin supports foreign oil. Hopefully people see what im saying, it can be done to mention the benefits of soy rather than having to compare it to paraffin. So I would just be sure that you mention the benefits of your products being made with soy, rather than comparing it to paraffin. There are benefits of both.

[Cetacea]

Go here Joy:

http://www.geocities.com/get_scent/waxsection.htm

Absyrtus exactly what scientific community are you a part of and referencing? IMHO; the information on your website is a clear example of someone that is not 100% confident in their products. Don't get your blood up...this is very common for beginners to do. They compare their products based on other products instead of emphasizing the key points of their own. Why? Because they are unsure exactly what their own candles will do.

I suggest that you start rigorous testing on your own products, ignore what others do and try to get yours to the perfection stage BEFORE attacking or comparing to anyone else. That way you can say with perfect CONFIDENCE, "well my candles will burn......(enter good charactoristics). Notice no comparison? Customer's respond to that confidence. By consistantly comparing to something else, it gives the impression of sleeziness. Why? Because people have been burned already by that marketing ploy.

Just my opinion, hth

[Laura]

a few things...there is alot i like pertaining to the overall look of the site...BUT soy candles can soot just as bad as paraffin, if you don't have the proper wick, recipe and burning conditions...white soot, black soot...both can do equal damage...

comparison( put down/bashing) selling always gets my no vote....if your product is that good, it will sell itself...you can word it as promoting your product without putting down another...besides it shows more tact in doing so.

any site that gives the pros of soy versus the cons of paraffin gets another no vote for me...it's just not necessary. plus it looks like the seller is insecure about their product and feels the need to put down the other...

you don't see bigger names putting down other companies...they don't have to. put your product on a pedestal by boasting about it....without pointing at others.

and i just have to say....while paraffin might very well be more "common", soy is considerably less costly as paraffin....(don't like the word "cheaper")

also, rustic applies to a rustic looking finish/look...your rustics are chunks....you could miss an entire market by not nameing them as such...and rustic lovers would be disappointed since they are looking for the other look. sadly, i have yet to see a rustic pillar....would be cool tho.

in case you thought i was biased...i make soy, paraffin and soy/parafin blends,to appease all my customers...and i have never needed to boast about pros or cons of either wax...9 times out of 10 my customers already knows what they are looking for...if they have questions, i can give the pro's without pointing out cons....it's all good...

[daniedb]

I just thought of another reason to cite only the benefits of soy, and not the negatives of paraffin in order to sell...

I remember learning in an economics class in college that the leading seller in a market never referenced its competitors. However, any seller that wasn't the top seller always references its competitors. I.e., in McDonald's ads, you will never hear a mention of Burger King, but in Burger King's ads, you hear that "4 out of 5 customers prefer BK's fries over McDonald's". Even if I'm not the biggest retailer of soy candles, I certainly want people to associate me with that idea, and if for no other reason that giving a good impression, I'm going to follow the marketing techniques of the top sellers.

Just another thought.

[dragontears]

i think the text should be bigger had a hard time reading it. and i agree with others not to put down other wax

[prairieannie]

AWww Absyrtus...I'm disappointed. I figured you for the type that would hang in and keep a debate spirited, rather than cower down with a "I don't want to discuss it anymore" type statement. You're here with the big kids now, and nobody is chasing you away! I think you stand to learn a LOT from this community, if you will be honest with yourself, and with us.

You have to remember, that there aren't too many dummies here on this board..most of us remember that less than 3 weeks ago, you were an admitted "experimentor" and just beginning. Heck, I remember your very first post..in fact, I think I had the very first response to it.

You have had some valid points, but I think your pride has perhaps gotten in the way of your good sense. I think you have some good ideas, I think it's great that you're thinking about marketing, even if you need to be schooled a little more in that respect, and I think you have a lot of potential.

Or...maybe this is just one of your growing phases in life...kinda like you "Used to be a rock star?" maybe one day you'll say "I used to make candles"

I do wish you luck...I'm always tickled to see young folks on here with their talents and artistic abilities wanting to learn and share. I had hoped you weren't like some of the others I've seen..here for a very short time and then POOF! Gone because it wasn't as easy as it looked.

[BruceCarvesWax]

Absyrtus exactly what scientific community are you a part of and referencing?

I was wondering the same thing.

Well, this was a fun post to watch! I didn't know you girls (and guys) had it in you to really tell it like it is! Good job. I always feel like I'm the bad guy on here telling all the newbies about testing and quality before selling. Most here know that using EO's to make a really great, house filling smell in a candle is almost impossible. I would be interested to know how he came up with sooooo many candles using EO's in such little time (weeks). I would think it would take years to do that if it were even possible at all?

Now, for those that don't like the soy vs par..... we do see it every day and see it so much that we don't even notice it anymore. coke vs Pepsi, One car vs another, heck I remember when grocery stores would have carts of groceries from all the other stores and the total price and what you save buying from the store you were shopping in on a huge poster hanging from the walls. There will always be companies that compare and talk up their products, that is marketing. I have some soy candles but most are not. I always ask my customers what they like about a soy candle and go from there. Some like the long burn... i can get that with my blend, some like the less soot... I can do that to with a properly wicked jar ... ect. I know there are lots of people (even here) that market their candles as 3x scented and I think that is one of the biggest marketing ploys of them all. Its like telling a customer your candles are 3 times better than all the others, so in some ways we all talk up our product by making others sound not quite as good.

The biggest problem I have (as always) is that when you start selling candles, if your don't have the quality to keep your customers coming back, you will be gone within a year. So why not take that year and just refine your candle making skills? Just think about it, how many professions could you make a living at that don't take years of training, practice etc? Not many if you want to be the best you can be in your field.

Bruce

[Absyrtus]

I am a biologist primarily, with some good chemistry and toxicology knowledge. I am not a candle expert in the field of toxicology, but I can use my training and resources for more information.

I'm not going anywhere. I've recieved some good criticism.... and some that I have recieved seems very closed minded. I still don't think i'm bashing anyone, and i'm not even referencing a competetor... I am referencing a component in a candle, and listing the reasons why I choose to use soy wax over the other predominant component, paraffin. And, i have reasons to believe the way that I do, through my research. I'm not saying paraffin is bad, I am saying soy is better, at least from my point of view, and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be stating this. Many of my customers DON'T know the benefits of soy.... and many have found the information that I have accurately given to be beneficial to them.

What I meant by "I don't feel like talking about this anymore" is that, I don't really care to have 50 other people sign on and tell me that bashing other companies is bad. Ok, thanks for playing, I totally agree, bashing other companies is bad. however, I don't feel that I am doing that, so these reasons are irrelevant.

As far as calling my "chunk" candles rustics, the word rustic means something. It means plain, rough, primitive. I believe these candles have that quality to them, and therefore I call them rustics. I have done things a little differently with my company. I don't believe that the average joe considers a "rustic" candle a breed of candle. It's an adjective, and I use it as such.

[prairieannie]

As far as calling my "chunk" candles rustics, the word rustic means something. It means plain, rough, primitive. I believe these candles have that quality to them, and therefore I call them rustics. I have done things a little differently with my company. I don't believe that the average joe considers a "rustic" candle a breed of candle. It's an adjective, and I use it as such.

I agree!

Now..just one more question! You have stated in previous posts that you were only selling to family and friends.. and suddenly you now have all of these customers..

I'm not going anywhere. I've recieved some good criticism.... and some that I have recieved seems very closed minded. I still don't think i'm bashing anyone, and i'm not even referencing a competetor... I am referencing a component in a candle, and listing the reasons why I choose to use soy wax over the other predominant component, paraffin. And, i have reasons to believe the way that I do, through my research. I'm not saying paraffin is bad, I am saying soy is better, at least from my point of view, and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be stating this. Many of my customers DON'T know the benefits of soy.... and many have found the information that I have accurately given to be beneficial to them.

I dunno... I just have to wonder how credible anything you say is now. Sorry. I just can't shake the feeling of being hoodwinked!

[Absyrtus]

By customers, I am referring to those that have viewed the site. I have asked about 10 people if they found the material offensive, if they felt I was bashing people, and if they found the information helpful. No one found anything wrong with it.

Yes, so far, I have only sold to family and friends. Still, I have successfully filled about ten orders, with more coming every day. I am just starting, but I have tested my product, and I have not produced one single candle with any flaw other than ugliness.

[Sarah]

Absyrtus, do you think that you have put in the extensive testing that it takes to put out an acceptable product? Do you feel confident that someone who buys your product will return because you came through with everything you promise about your candles? Are you completely confident that they will be satisfied with everything - the way it burns, the scent, etc? If so, that's all that you need to sell something. You can make all the comparisons you want, but what it comes down to is the product itself. That's what will get them to return to you for more, and returning customers are what builds a business.

[Sarah]

By customers, I am referring to those that have viewed the site. I have asked about 10 people if they found the material offensive, if they felt I was bashing people, and if they found the information helpful. No one found anything wrong with it.

This could also be because you have presented your opinions and beliefs in a way to make it look like fact. I'm sure they thanked you for informing them of all this because they didn't know what a health threat it was to burn candles. :rolleyes2 I know some of what you said is based in truth, but a lot is not.

If you do some searching on this site alone, you will learn a lot. I think it will surprise you how many intelligent posts you will find regarding soy and paraffin and you will learn a lot. Don't be stubborn, learning is a good thing.

[lvnmt]

Your website reminded me of one I stumbled upon about a year ago when I fist became interested in making candles. There are a lot of similarities (besides the candles themselves), as far as the content and why soy is better etc...and about using EO's and things. It is www.greenspacecandles.com. It is obvious they are marketing their candles towards a certain genre of people, i.e. more earth-conscious and "natural" if you will. Now that I re-read the things in it, the more I am turned off by this marekting style. But I can see how the average joe on the street might be turned on to something like that. It is amazing how much people will buy something when they are motivated by fear of another product and certain "claims".

I ran into this same situation at a health fair 2 weeks ago. There was a huge booth with literally 100's candles (candle wealth) and all the lady wanted to do was tell me the hundreds of ways paraffin wax was bad, and why soy was so good. Same old song and dance. What she could not do-was explain why her 2oz crappy candle was worth almost $10. This was at a women's health fair attended by 20,000 people!! Can you guess how many people they "scared" into buying their probuct, and not because it was necessarily good. Insane!

I am also in the "scietific community" I am a clinical scientist and work in the laboratory of a major hospital in my city. When we bring on a new test or machine, or anything, we test the hell out of it, and then test it again. It takes months, sometimes up to a year to get it just right. There are these things called "controls", we test for every variable. Everything has to be perfect becuase the end result will affect someone's life. Now, I understand that maybe candle making isn't quite the same thing, but I have been testing and re-testing my candles for over a year. Yes, I do believe it takes time to get a product right, and no I don't think that 1 week or a month is even close to being long enough, when you are selling something to the general public. No matter good you think your product is. There are literally hundreds of variables you should test for as many as you can. Like I said before this is a sue happy world, and if you piss someone off good enough-your done!

I still consider myself a newbie, and this post has taught me a lot. That, if and when I am ready to present my product to the general public I will definitely keep asking questions and get the opinions of the people on this site. It defintely benefits everyone to have these sorts of discussions in this business, especially when you are selling something as potentially dangerous as a candle.

ps. I know that you think that you are just "informing" people on the benefits of soy, but you could probably just do it in a more tasteful way. I would also like to see more than just 2 pix of your product. You should inclue some pix of your containers. 2 pillar pix won't cut it, I would never buy a container candle without seeing a pix of it first! Good luck to ya!

[Absyrtus]

I'm glad you learned something from this forum. Hopefully is that people are afraid to look into changing the status quo, and will FIERCELY defend their stances. People have criticized me for everything - deceiving people, flat out lying, and bashing... and yet, I have provided legitimate scientific, peer reviewed literature, and I'm supposed to learn something from 10,000 people telling me I am wrong, who provide no backing? I'm not trying to scare anyone. On my website, if 1/2 of you actually bothered to read it carefully, I say that the research is not conclusive. There IS research that concluded that soy burns longer, that it is cleaner burning, and that it doesn't emit the carcinogens that paraffin does.

I have training in toxicology. Will paraffin candles kill you? No. Will peanut butter kill you? No... (But there are toxins, 40 Tsp. of peanut butter is equivalent to smoking 1.4 cigarettes), but toxins are still there. If someone released peer reviewed published research stating that paper towels may cause cancer, I wouldn't use them.

It's like Sodium Laureth Sulfate in body care products. it's a skin irritant. At the concentration in which it is used, it is usually not a problem, but if it doesn't need to be there (and it doesn't) then why put it in? Why use paraffin if carcinogens are released?

But this isn't your guys' point. I have my view, and I have supported it. Have you supported yours? Not really... and yet you are bashing me for my view... saying it's bunk, saying it's bs. you may believe that, but I have valid sources suggesting that I am NOT. Again, just because some have blown things out of proportion, doesn't mean that there isn't a valid difference between soy and paraffin... drop it!

I do believe that my product is great. They smell fabulous! And I am so excited to share it with people! They are the best burning and smelling candle that I have ever experienced, and I am so excited to share them with others.

I have tested my candles. You guys act like candles can seep into peoples heads at night and explode from within if not formulated properly. It's not rocket science. Candles can have burning problems, they can catch on fire, but this has been controlled for. And, if any candle is burnt under proper supervision, as all candles should be, this isn't an issue.

Nearly everyone on this forum has roasted me. Thanks for the fun. I'm not sure why you are attacking me, my site, or my product so strongly, and don't say that you haven't -- you have, people suggesting anything I say can't be trusted, people saying they would never buy anything from me since my comparison to paraffin obviously denotes a problem with my product, people saying that I'm too experienced to produce good candles.... and the list goes on!

I wanted to post my site because I was proud of it, and I still am. And I am definitely proud of my company and what it stands for, and will continue to be. I am sorry that you don't appreciate some of the things I believe in.

To the people whos criticisms were actually constructive, open minded, and thoughtful, thank you. I greatly appreciate them.

[Absyrtus]

You should inclue some pix of your containers. 2 pillar pix won't cut it, I would never buy a container candle without seeing a pix of it first! Good luck to ya!

More evidence people haven't been reading carefully. You're right, no one will buy a container candle from me... because I don't sell them!

[mizbizzyb]

Whoa! I read all the comments and seen them to be constructive. You asked for opinions and you opened the door. Ask and you shall receive.

Now the site does look nice, except to me the pop-up of the candle pic (thumbnail maybe?) is too large and takes too long. No I didn't read everything about your claims to soy...but...you knocking another company to make your self seem right is a sign of insecurity to me. I think you should team up with Doug and see what he can do to enhance your site. It does look nice, but you would want it to be marketable. So when you are finished testing your products you can just go make the big bucks!!!

[BruceCarvesWax]

I am a biologist primarily, with some good chemistry and toxicology knowledge.

So, how long would it take me to become a biologist? A month, maybe two?

Please don't disrespect those of us that make a living at this by saying your a candle maker just because you can take a mold, pour wax, scent and color in it and make it burn, anyone can do that. (ok, maybe not anyone) :undecided

I don't know about the others that do this full time but I always feel directly insulted by anyone that thinks they can just pick up a pitcher of wax and become a candle maker. I have a book and test tubes but I'm not a biologist or chemist. (but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night)

[prairieannie]

Excuse all of us for finding it hard to believe that someone who just two weeks ago was "in the experimental stages" of candle making today has a "company he is proud of". If you can't understand our skepticism based on that statement alone, then nothing we say is going to make a difference to you.

[lvnmt]

I would also like to see more than just 2 pix of your product. You should inclue some pix of your containers. 2 pillar pix won't cut it, I would never buy a container candle without seeing a pix of it first! Good luck to ya

sorry, i guess I was confused by the size and shape thing. you still need more pix, though. I look forward to seeing holasoy candles stocked on the shelves of my local co-op. Right next to the toxin-free peanut butter.

[lvnmt]

Excuse all of us for finding it hard to believe that someone who just two weeks ago was "in the experimental stages" of candle making today has a "company he is proud of". If you can't understand our skepticism based on that statement alone, then nothing we say is going to make a difference to you

Could not agree more. :highfive: