Sticky situation

[lindsaycb]

I'm trying to find my way around the copyright site, and wow, how confusing is that? What exactly does copyright cover?

[prairieannie]

That's very surprising, since she posts here and does logos for other members, and gets lots of raves for them.

I will say this for anyone not familiar with graphics software...there are programs out there that can put various gradients on your designs with minimal effort on the operators part--simply scroll your mouse to get highlights where you want them, etc. Do you think it could be in any way possible that it could have happened here.

It does appear to me that it was reversed as you say because each area highlighted in your box is in the exact same place on hers, except that it's reversed of course. But honestly, I don't consider a box around text that crucial to your logo or hers. I understand completely where you're coming from, but I truly don't think that the box is that unique and identifiable as a branding issue.

Shame on her if she has indeed attempted to steal your work.

I think it IS crucial!! It's something that makes her logo stand out and on it's own! It truely is a brand! I think it totally sucks that it was blatantly copied like that, how sad.

[bugtussle]

I don't think the 2 logos are that similar. Just went to both websites. It's just a box with broken lines. My guess is that BB had never seen your site or your trademark. I don't think you can get a copyright or trademark on a rectangular box with unclear lines. Her name is underlined which makes the 2 logos different. Maybe good, inventive minds just come up with the same idea. I hate to see her get bashed, I think she does great work! JMHO Carole

[sockmonkey]

If she were already famous, and her logo so well known as to be associated directly with her (much as the golden arches are with McDonald's) then I could maybe see it. In this case, I'm sorry but I don't.

Just as Daniedb said with "editing" software, filters are available to manipulate anything, and people are capable of duplicating the same thing without even knowing it--especially when it comes to something as basic as a box or circle. With some of them, no mater who uses them, the program puts the same elements in the same place on the object, time after time, so the only solution is to reverse it or invert it in some cases to give a different look to something. There are millions of people outthere with the same software. Do you think no one will ever come up with the same design, especially when using a box?

I'm not saying anyone is guilty or innocent. I just hate to see someone get bashed publicly over something that may simply be coincidental.

[Beth-VT]

In all honesty, I don't think it's that big of a deal. My graphics program creates the exact same border. In fact, a year ago I was using the exact same border on some of my labels in a very similar fashion. I'm not saying an idea here wasn't borrowed but I'm not saying it was, either.

Yes, there is an obvious similarity between the two. However, it's a very simple design and easily stumbled across by anyone playing around with their graphics program. Perhaps a subconscious memory of something seen in the past sparks an idea.....my guess is there is probably lots of similar designs out there, done long before either one of you.

I'm not trying to take away from either design. I think they look great, and are used in a different enough manner that they don't necessarily look like 'copies'. But, it's not like this is a design that was pieced together and created and built from scratch. If it were, then I could see and would agree with the issue. But this is simply a generic and publicly available border, placed around simple text. Nothing more. JMO.

[sockmonkey]

I'm with you Beth.

[mizbizzyb]

In all honesty, I don't think it's that big of a deal. My graphics program creates the exact same border. In fact, a year ago I was using the exact same border on some of my labels in a very similar fashion. I'm not saying an idea here wasn't borrowed but I'm not saying it was, either.

Yes, there is an obvious similarity between the two. However, it's a very simple design and easily stumbled across by anyone playing around with their graphics program. Perhaps a subconscious memory of something seen in the past sparks an idea.....my guess is there is probably lots of similar designs out there, done long before either one of you.

I'm not trying to take away from either design. I think they look great, and are used in a different enough manner that they don't necessarily look like 'copies'. But, it's not like this is a design that was pieced together and created and built from scratch. If it were, then I could see and would agree with the issue. But this is simply a generic and publicly available border, placed around simple text. Nothing more. JMO.

Nicely put. I totally agree. I can't highlight everything. With the other person being creative as she is, I cannot see it being intentional at all.

I am pretty sure this will be worked out for the best of both parties.

[magsglass]

It does appear to me that it was reversed as you say because each area highlighted in your box is in the exact same place on hers, except that it's reversed of course.

That's what I see, too.

If this is a stock border then you can expect many, many people will use the same stock border. That would be a difficult infringement case to defend in court.

But if this border was truly created by hand, and the shading and texturing were all done by hand, then there's no way anyone could have recreated this border by happenstance. The markings, the brush strokes if you will, are identical. And then it's not only a solid case of copyright infringement, but a serious ethical issue as well, especially given the professional circumstances.

[BizzyBs]

Let me first start by saying, that I really debated on posting a reply to this, as I really felt that this should have been a private matter. My logo in no way was an intentional copy of Danielle's. This design has been in the works for quite some time and until recently, hadn't come to life (as I am so busy helping many, many clients from CT, as well as many other places). As all of you may know, I have been a graphic designer for over 17 years and would never "copy" anyone...it's just not in me. I can only say to all of you that this is my design...I use professional software to design everything (for myself, as well as all of my clients) and should not be put into question without first getting the facts. Yes, the two logos do look somewhat similar, but from a designer's perspective...they are far more different, than most will see that do not do this for a living.

To all those who came to my defense, I thank you. I am an honest person that truly only wants to help others and would never purposely do anything to upset another.

[donna4909]

The logos are different, however, the border boxes are identical. Exact same brush strokes and all. I rotated and zoomed in, and they are a perfect match.

But, if it is indeed a stock border, then you can't call foul play. If not, well, then it gets ugly...

[Guest EMercier]

Nicely put. I totally agree. I can't highlight everything. With the other person being creative as she is, I cannot see it being intentional at all.

I am pretty sure this will be worked out for the best of both parties.

I second Beth as well as mizbizzyb. To be honest, if you were to sue, you would not win. You know how? In Business Law, you have to prove that it takes away from your sales and that people would be confused about which product it was and that she was intentionally trying to take business away from you by trying to "mimic" your logo and design. That's all under copyright laws. I have the UCC's as well as the laws involving copywriting, trademarking, and patents. Trust me, I passed that test and class with flying colors.

I'm sorry you feel that someone attempted to "mimic" your label, but honestly, I would've taken care of it privately. We are all adults here and sometimes it can happen that people can think alike. I would hate to think that if she has been in graphic design for 17 years that she needs to "Mimic" from you. I'm a neutral party here and I'm just stating my opinion. I can understand if it was totally alike. I must admit that I have used others logos to get an idea and it helps for me to see what I want. You can't tell me that others haven't seen it and then tried to tweak it to make it their own. I've not used anyone else's work, but I liked the font Bizzy B used for her old label and asked her to do the same for me, but I wanted a label like one I saw on a candle at Target.

Bottom line is, it's not that deep, just let it alone and handle this the mature way, and trust me, coming here and doing what you did made this bigger than what it should really be. I find that often here.

That's just MY opinion...I'm sure there will be remarks against me, I really don't care, that's why I try not to post that much anymore.

[Beth-VT]

Mags & donna....this isn't a stock border that you can grab off the net and use, nor is it a border that was shaded and textured by hand. It's a computer generated effect. In my program, you simply draw a standard square/rect., then you add the effect to it. It does it the same....every time...no matter how big...no matter how small, it's always the same. Anyone with the same program who tries the same effect is going to get the exact same results. It simply isn't copying.

My example is attached. Anyone else who tries to create this using Print Shop will get the exact same results. They can rotate it, flip it, stretch it, whatever. It still isn't copying.

I'm not defending either party nor placing blame. I'm just pointing that it's not an issue of physically copying the border from danieb's image as some seem to think.

[prairieannie]

The logos are different, however, the border boxes are identical. Exact same brush strokes and all. I rotated and zoomed in, and they are a perfect match.

But, if it is indeed a stock border, then you can't call foul play. If not, well, then it gets ugly...

It IS exactly the same. It's identical in every way. I am a graphic designer, and there is no way in hell you will convince me that there is more to this border than either copying it directly or both of you are using a stock graphic. Bizzy, c'mon. These people may not all be graphic designers, but they can certainly see with their own eyes!! But, you are right, before jumping to this conclusion, I should have asked you first...yet Since you have so boldly stated here, that that border is your own creation, IMO, you have just put YOURSELF into question! You would have been much more believable had you just stated it was a stock graphic lol. There is no shame in using those, as you well know. But to maintain that you designed it yourself is too difficult to believe when every brush stroke and break in the line is identical to Danielle's box which she too has stated that she created herself.

All of that being said, I must still say, that after looking at both logos for a good long time now, I don't believe that the finished logos look so similar that there would be a problem. I too look at others logos for inspiration. Everyone does. It's a great way to come up with your own creative designs! Had this issue not come up, I wouldn't have noticed the similarities in the boxes at all. But since it did, and I was able to physically prove to myself that they are identical, and my above stated 2 cents comes into play.

[karenmimi]

Beckie, sweetie, keep up the good work - you are a professional and a wonderful graphic designer - thanks for the work you have done for me!

Life is short - dont sweat the small stuff - c'mon people lets talk about candle making!

[Fire and Ice]

I second Beth as well as mizbizzyb. To be honest, if you were to sue, you would not win. You know how? In Business Law, you have to prove that it takes away from your sales and that people would be confused about which product it was and that she was intentionally trying to take business away from you by trying to "mimic" your logo and design. That's all under copyright laws. I have the UCC's as well as the laws involving copywriting, trademarking, and patents. Trust me, I passed that test and class with flying colors.

I'm sorry you feel that someone attempted to "mimic" your label, but honestly, I would've taken care of it privately. We are all adults here and sometimes it can happen that people can think alike. I would hate to think that if she has been in graphic design for 17 years that she needs to "Mimic" from you. I'm a neutral party here and I'm just stating my opinion. I can understand if it was totally alike. I must admit that I have used others logos to get an idea and it helps for me to see what I want. You can't tell me that others haven't seen it and then tried to tweak it to make it their own. I've not used anyone else's work, but I liked the font Bizzy B used for her old label and asked her to do the same for me, but I wanted a label like one I saw on a candle at Target.

Bottom line is, it's not that deep, just let it alone and handle this the mature way, and trust me, coming here and doing what you did made this bigger than what it should really be. I find that often here.

That's just MY opinion...I'm sure there will be remarks against me, I really don't care, that's why I try not to post that much anymore.

I agree. I certainly think this matter should have been quietly handled in e-mail and PMs. I really hope this doesn't turn nastly! It was actually brought to the boards on another thread but to have started this thread before you got a response from Bizzy was not a good idea. And weren't you, at one time, thinking to sell your company? You both have GREAT products that probably sell very well. Frankly, I just think it was handled wrong. Whatever the outcome, I hope nobody stirs this pot for their own enertainment, leaving a mess on the boards and in our own memeries.

Be and act as the professionals that I know each of you are!

I won't take sides because each of you know your own truths of what is and isn't.

Blessings and hugs to both of you ladies,

Fire:cool2:

[magsglass]

Beth-VT: Thanks for pointing that out, but I already knew it was computer rendered. Digital art is one of my favorite techniques to use. BTW, your border looks nothing like the ones in question.

EMercier: While I agree with what you said about business law and proof of damages as it applies to trademarks and servicemarks, I have to respectfully disagree that loss has to be proven for an artist to successfully litigate a copyright protection case.

U.S. copyright law recognizes the artist as the rightful owner and creator of a work. It protects the artist's right to keep others from creating derivative works, and also to determine where and how their work is displayed--even after a work is sold. As it currently stands, digital art is included under this protection.

[candlegrl]

I agree. I certainly think this matter should have been quietly handled in e-mail and PMs. I really hope this doesn't turn nastly! It was actually brought to the boards on another thread but to have started this thread before you got a response from Bizzy was not a good idea. And weren't you, at one time, thinking to sell your company? You both have GREAT products that probably sell very well. Frankly, I just think it was handled wrong. Whatever the outcome, I hope nobody stirs this pot for their own enertainment, leaving a mess on the boards and in our own memeries.

Be and act as the professionals that I know each of you are!

I won't take sides because each of you know your own truths of what is and isn't.

Blessings and hugs to both of you ladies,

Fire:cool2:

Well Said

[bubblygrl]

I agree, this should have been handled in private, especially because you know she is well known by people here...

[daniedb]

1. That is not a stock border. I created it by hand, exacting and detailed, and while it is possible to come up with a similar graphic, it is impossible to get that identical graphic unless you simply pull it from my webpage. Period.

2. I never stated a name, never intended to make this public, never desired a name to be identified.

[Beth-VT]

BTW, your border looks nothing like the ones in question.

It doesn't???? Are you sure? LMAO. Yeah, i knew that, not the same program. I just wanted to show that something similar (or identical with the right tools) can easily be reproduced.

[karenmimi]

"never intended to make this public"

Then why in the world did you ever start this thread "Sticky Situation"????

[Meridith]

"never intended to make this public"

Then why in the world did you ever start this thread "Sticky Situation"????

I think it was more meant that the name of the person was never intended to be made public and she was just looking for suggestions as to how to handle this situation. I don't belive that daniedb was the one that made the person's name public either. Peeps ask for advice all the time on all kinds of situations that are never meant to cause commotion (and then some are).

[andrealh1975]

Ok, I wasn't going to comment, but I have to say something now...Danielle I believe before you said something publically, you should have gone to BizzyB privately like many others have suggested.

Thank you, e...in fact, it was my intention to keep her identity private if and until there was a need to make it public, which I don't know what that would have taken. However, I did post in another post about it, which did identify her, and so I take responsibility for doing so, but as only two people responded to it, I assumed that only two people cataloged it, and those two people are ones that I know are not drama-seeking people. Therefore, I did not realize that it would be easily connected, or I probably would have just avoided posting about it.

Surely, this never happens on CT!! Think about all that will read a thread 100's of times and never comment, but it doesn't mean they didn't see all that was there.

2. I never stated a name, never intended to make this public, never desired a name to be identified.

Unfortunately, you did "state" a name. You posted the logo w/ BizzyB and you also referred to her as Bizzy in the initial thread.

I'm not here to bash you, but just suggesting you watch what you type.

[BruceCarvesWax]

Well since the pictures are already in another post Im going to post them here with the one switched "mirror" image so we can compare better.

They are very close. If the pure henry border was made by hand... and NOT on a computer then it would very much look like an exact duplication. She states she made it by hand... dont know if that is pen and paper or computer program but i think its possible that both used the same computer program to make the frame. Im a graphics freak and love to play with all the programs too. I also dont think its a big deal unless it was designed with pen and paper then I can see making a little fuss about it. Both look nice. The only part that doesnt look the same is the right side of the logos. Bruce

[daniedb]

It appears that the logo in question has been altered enough to look similar, but not identical. Therefore, as I have informed Bizzy, I consider the matter closed from my end.