GW 464 Test Results Thread

[Budgie]

Geek & Island Girl - your candles look great!:smiley2: This sounds like a really good wax. I can't wait to get my sample.

[islandgirl]

Has anyone had any sinkholes or air pockets with this wax so far?

I wiggled my wick,

and poked my wax,

and yes I did have a few airpockets - only around the wick.. :undecided(Nothing a heat gun can't fix)

I did not have any sinkholes...

[Marilyn]

Ugh, my red ones have bad frosting, but mainly the ones I experimented pouring at low temp, 100*. I wonder if that had anything to do with it? My other reds are better. My blue is perfect! sigh.....

Other than that, I really like the appearance of this wax!!

[georgiaII]

Mixed l lb. wax, 1/2 t. UV heated to 180. Added 3 drops liquid dye combo of red and blue, stirred then added 1.5 oz. Persion Lilac FO. Poured at 135 into a 10 oz Patio Jar and 8 oz JJ. Did not warm containers. Room temperature was cold around 60 (unheated sunroom). Candles cooled really fast and I had frosting and rough spots around wicks as a result. Anyway, I'm assuming that is why that happened. Fixed rough spots with heat gun. Good adhesion. The cold throw was great. Burned the following day and the hot throw is excellent. Will pour more at warmer room temperature.

I like this wax because it is basically all soy and can be poured hot. And because the throw is so good. I can contend with any typical traits of soy wax that might occur.

Thanks Jason.

[geekrunner]

After this I may just give up on parasoy! I did Peak's Apple Jack n Peel at 7% with Pryme Plus color at 0.3% (80% brown and 20% red) . Again, heated to 185*, added dye. Added FO at 175*, stirred and poured into slightly warmed keepsake at 135*. Covered with box to cool slowly.

Just a couple of tiny spots of frosting on the top, nothing so far on the sides of jar. Great adhesion! Nice bold color! This takes color alot better than 415. Cold throw is very good too. You can really see the type of finish it leaves on the top when color is present.

Warning: my trusty Lab Assistant, Bobbie, insisted I take her picture. She was quite adamant about it and threatened to quit, so I have her included in my pics.

[georgiaII]

The candles look great but Bobbie is gorgeous.

[lvnmt]

Hey Geek,

Do you think that maybe some of that frostop stuff would help? Just a thought-they look great though. I can't wait to test.

[geekrunner]

Hey Geek,

Do you think that maybe some of that frostop stuff would help? Just a thought-they look great though. I can't wait to test.

I'm not sure if it would, but hey, give it a try! It would be interesting to see what happens, since Jason said 464 didn't need anything else, and that BW doesn't play well with it.

I got a free sample of it when I bought the Pryme color system, but have not tried it since I haven't had that bad of a frosting problem.

geek

[SDM]

I can't post pictures, but I am very happy with how my candles turned out with this wax. I poured a 9oz hex with 3 drops of burgundy color and mulberry FO, poured at 165, and the top is completely smooth and there's no frosting. It lookes very, very nice. The cold throw was fantastic, and I'm going to try burning it today. I also poured 2 8oz jelly jars with purple dye, mulberry wine FO, and poured at 145, the other with purple dye, cranberry FO (I like purple, can you tell?! ) and poured at 165, and they are both smooth, but with a little bit of frosting on the top and sides. I imagine it has something to do with the color I used and maybe the temp I poured at. The cold throw is awesome, and they are very smooth looking. I'm going to pour a few more today at a lower temp and see how they come out. So far I am very happy with this wax. Hopefully someone close to PA will carry this so I can get a little more to continue testing!

BTW, thank you Jason for sending these samples out and sending so quickly!!

[AngelaVA]

I poured mine yesterday. I used 7 oz wax, 8% Hillbilly Homebrew (MC) and 3 drops of brown dye and poured at 130. The top set up pretty nice, but the sides look terrible. I let it cool in a cardboard box and the room was warm, so I don't think it cooled too quickly. But the cold throw is great and I'll let you know about the hot throw in a few days.

PS - Would love to have a wick recommendation for my square mason. This is the first time I've worked with soy, so not sure where to start. Was thinking about a RRD 47 or Eco 12. Any other suggestions would be great.

[topofmurrayhill]

I like the picture of Bobbie. I don't really understand the excitement over the wax. The tops don't look smooth and the random blotches of frost are unappealing. This is no reflection on the candlemakers whatsoever, but it doesn't look to me like this product overcomes the usual mediocrity. Not quite sure I understand why everyone is oohing and aahing over it.

[islandgirl]

I like the picture of Bobbie. I don't really understand the excitement over the wax. The tops don't look smooth and the random blotches of frost are unappealing. This is no reflection on the candlemakers whatsoever, but it doesn't look to me like this product overcomes the usual mediocrity. Not quite sure I understand why everyone is oohing and aahing over it.

For me, I hope that this new additive helps with the consistancy of the wax from batch to batch..(Hate those bad batches).

The frosting and wet spots are not an issue for me as I do not dye my candles due to the ugly frosting issues.

I am test burning the 3 candles I made 36 hours ago and the hot throw is amazing!!!!

[topofmurrayhill]

For me, I hope that this new additive helps with the consistancy of the wax from batch to batch..(Hate those bad batches).

The frosting and wet spots are not an issue for me as I do not dye my candles due to the ugly frosting issues.

I understand that people tolerate and work around the defects. I just don't see a product here that stands out over similar products. It's kind of the same old. The new additive isn't new. It's a soy-derived emulsifier/surfactant that you can buy on your own if you like from a handful of suppliers. I'm sure other waxes incorporate it too. It's a food additive kinda like lecithin and I think most soy formulations incorporate something along these lines to make them usable.

[islandgirl]

I understand that people tolerate and work around the defects. .

Well, all we can do right now is test this wax and see if helps with some or all of the defects so we do not have to tolerate the defects anymore.

If someone can formulate a soy wax that you don't have to mix with other natural products to make it perform...I am all for it..

I am not saying this is the one... But with trial and error, maybe we can all help Jason, since he is really working with us, to create a soy wax that is more predictable and consistent, with less frosting, wet spots, air pockets ect...

[geekrunner]

I like the picture of Bobbie. I don't really understand the excitement over the wax. The tops don't look smooth and the random blotches of frost are unappealing. This is no reflection on the candlemakers whatsoever, but it doesn't look to me like this product overcomes the usual mediocrity. Not quite sure I understand why everyone is oohing and aahing over it.

Bobbie was rather insistent and kept getting in the way, typical of many hams!

What I like so much about this wax is everything (so far)! I've been playing with my own parasoy because my present soy mix won't accept color consistently, and I'm getting a great demand for colored candles. On the other hand, even though the parasoy was taking color well and I could pour hot, adhesion was nonexistent.

Here in just two pours of a noncolored and colored candle, I am getting great color, great adhesion, and comparable cold throw compared to my 415/BW mix. I like that I can pour much sooner after adding FO and I don't have to jump through hoops after pouring to avoid air pockets/sinkholes/rough tops.

Granted this is only two jars and one color, but I didn't like the 444 or the 449 as well as this stuff! I am seeing a few more little spots of frosting on the colored one but they are very tiny.

I would seriously buy this wax and test it more if/when it becomes available, but I'm still sticking with my present wax configuration and will think about giving up the parasoy. As much as I like to play around, I don't want to keep two different wax blends if I can do colored and plain candles with one wax. This one might be the one.

geek

[geekrunner]

I understand that people tolerate and work around the defects. I just don't see a product here that stands out over similar products. It's kind of the same old. The new additive isn't new. It's a soy-derived emulsifier/surfactant that you can buy on your own if you like from a handful of suppliers. I'm sure other waxes incorporate it too. It's a food additive kinda like lecithin and I think most soy formulations incorporate something along these lines to make them usable.

It seemd coincidental at first that Candlemaker's Store started carrying a Universal Soy Additive last month, then Jason offered samples of this 464 having 2% of an identically named ingredient. I bought some along with 10 lbs of their 415 to test it out, but at 3% I did not get the same behavior out of the candle. It set up very silky smooth and had a slight dip in the center just like a parasoy does. This 464 sets up very flat with a slight texture, and is very creamy in appearance.

Provided it works for the colors I plan on using, the next detemining factor in my decision to buy it is whether or not Jason can get MC or Candlemaker's Store to carry it. If he can talk either Steve or Kathy into carrying it instead of the 444, I'd be a happy camper!

geek

[topofmurrayhill]

What I like so much about this wax is everything (so far)! I've been playing with my own parasoy because my present soy mix won't accept color consistently, and I'm getting a great demand for colored candles. On the other hand, even though the parasoy was taking color well and I could pour hot, adhesion was nonexistent.

If you mix your own there's a good chance you won't get adhesion, but there are many parasoy formulas that do work.

Lately I'm thinking paraveggie is where it's at. Vegetable ingredients work great in combination with paraffin and related materials to make creamy blends that pour very flat. All-vegetable and especially all-soy waxes strike me as mostly a marketing gimmick.

The original inventors of this stuff could barely come up with a blend that worked decently and they had the best results with paraveggie blends. To this day little has changed.

Even if you carefully choose your wax and get a procedure down that produces a perfect result at the outset, the nature of the stuff is that it's highly unstable. You still don't know what it's going to look like in a few months or after it's been through shipping. Thus you'll see very few upscale candle companies charging serious bucks for all-veggie candles.

The paraveggie stuff seems to be surging these days. I predict all-veggie will remain a niche market and parasoy will continue to grow. It capitalizes on the marketing cachet plus it's a product that really works and can stand on its own performance virtues (including stability).

[topofmurrayhill]

It seemd coincidental at first that Candlemaker's Store started carrying a Universal Soy Additive last month, then Jason offered samples of this 464 having 2% of an identically named ingredient.

You can also get that stuff or analogous additives from Just By Nature, Candle Soylutions, and Moon Glow.

As I understand it, all these soy waxes are preformulated blends containing multiple ingredients. This sort of additive is something most of them have already or they wouldn't set up smooth. You need some sort of emulsifier to act as a crystal modifier and there are several substances you can use. Chemically I think they're called monoglycerides.

[georgiaII]

Why parasoy? Paraffin pours flat and creamy so if soy is just a marketing gimmick, why would you prefer a parasoy blend over all paraffin?

[topofmurrayhill]

Why parasoy? Paraffin pours flat and creamy so if soy is just a marketing gimmick, why would you prefer a parasoy blend over all paraffin?

Paraveggie pours flatter over a wider variety of container types than the paraffin blends, often with a simpler production procedure.

[lvnmt]

Hey Top

So when you say "paraveggie" you mean soy/veggie and paraffin blends? Would this also include soy/cotton and paraffin mixtures? I guess I have never really understood what the soy additives do exactly, nor have a researched it so its my own fault. It would be nice though to have a mixture that you can pour and not worry about adding a bunch of other stuff to it to make it nice (other than color and FO).

[georgiaII]

I didn't realize there are production issues with paraffin. I have not used it very much but when I did have occasion to work with it, it seemed very manageable to me. But, I am fairly new to the candlemaking business so can you tell me what you have experienced?

Anyway, isn't there something about the smoke from paraffin, even though it is a natural product, emitting trace elements of formaldehyde? If this is true, maybe that is a good reason to hang in with soy and its aggravations.

[topofmurrayhill]

Hey Top

So when you say "paraveggie" you mean soy/veggie and paraffin blends? Would this also include soy/cotton and paraffin mixtures? I guess I have never really understood what the soy additives do exactly, nor have a researched it so its my own fault. It would be nice though to have a mixture that you can pour and not worry about adding a bunch of other stuff to it to make it nice (other than color and FO).

I didn't research it at first but I've been delving more and more over time. I may not have a perfect understanding of the situation yet but I think I've got the picture in broad strokes.

All the soy wax products are analogous to preformulated blends in the paraffin world. There are certain types and ratios of ingredients that have been found to make a usable product. Those ingredients basically include oils, partially hydrogenated oils, fully hydrogenated oils, stearic acid and related substances, and emulsifiers/surfactants. Chemically, it adds up to a mish-mash of triglycerides, diglycerides and monoglycerides derived from vegetable sources. Since the orginal materials have been chemically modified to varying extents, this includes various compounds that occur in nature and others that don't.

The basic difference between all-soy and all-veggie is that all-soy requires choosing from a shorter list of ingredients, depending on how a particular manufacturer defines it. The practical difference is that all-soy tends to be an inferior product with superior marketing cachet. After all, if soy sounds good then 100% soy sounds better. Going beyond that to an all-veggie wax, the blend can be optimized for better performance but the basic nature of the stuff is the same.

The inventors were out to see how much the vegetable ingredients could be maximized and the petroleum-derived ingredients could be minimized. The state of the art is that acceptable all veggie products can be made, but they are lacking in certain respects such as scent throw, aesthetics, and stability.

Going beyond the all-veggie concept, I think it's pretty well recognized that you can make a superior "best of both worlds" product by incorporating paraffin and related materials. At that point it becomes an issue of how much of a true believer you are. The inventors claimed to subjectively perceive superior qualities in an all-vegetable product and many people claim to perceive it to this day. I think this can be called into question and I personally have never been able to subjectively verify these claims, but what really raises the red flag for me is that the inventors and an agribusiness sponsor saw fit to stage a rigged study in support of their patent application. What it says to me is that the real driving force was people expecting to make a lot of money.

Putting aside the true-believer stuff and just looking at product performance is what leads me to conclude that the paraveggie products are where it's at. For many companies that need high product quality and stability, that's gonna be the way to go and it seems more good products of that sort have been coming onto the market (despite the demise of J300).

[topofmurrayhill]

I didn't realize there are production issues with paraffin. I have not used it very much but when I did have occasion to work with it, it seemed very manageable to me. But, I am fairly new to the candlemaking business so can you tell me what you have experienced?

Anyway, isn't there something about the smoke from paraffin, even though it is a natural product, emitting trace elements of formaldehyde? If this is true, maybe that is a good reason to hang in with soy and its aggravations.

Those are great questions.

Basically, the paraffin blends are one-pours under ideal conditions. Certain container geometries can vastly compromise their one-pour performance. They also tend to require special attention in production such as container preheating and insulated cooling. The vegetable ingredients can greatly improve their one-pour properties and simplify the production process.

Formaldehyde is a simple compound that comes from incomplete combustion. It was detected in a study that was rigged so that the paraffin samples would be wildly overwicked compared to the soy wax samples. If you wildly overwick soy and make it smoke, that will produce formaldehyde too.

[georgiaII]

But wasn't that study conducted independently by a state university, I forget which one?