Will be making my first gel emulsion

[Candybee]

Any tips? I want a clear gel for my soothing eye gel formulation. Will be working with xanthum gum. I have never made an emulsified gel, just watched a video on youtube which helps. Last thing I want is for it to go opaque on me. I want it clear and jelly like. I'm afraid the oils and liquids won't emulsify with the xanthum gum. Wondering if I need a co-emulsifier or its its enough? I do have polysorbate 20 & 80 on hand.

[TallTayl]

I generally don’t rely on xanthan. Polymers are so easy, almost foolproof. 

[NightLight]

They won’t emulsify. You need to use an emulsifier with oils and water. Go to Swiftcrafty blog.

This is where you want to learn how to formulate.

https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/?s=Gels+serum

She goes over various products that can help you achieve your product.
I personally not a fan of xanthum gum. It can feel like sticky snot, there are other ingredients out there for you.

Xanthum gum has its use in small amount, like tiny to stabilize emulsions freeze thaw.

[Candybee]

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I generally don’t rely on xanthan. Polymers are so easy, almost foolproof. 

 

I am waiting on a product from ITDF called UltraPureGel. Listed as a thickener, polymer, rheology modifier. I am also waiting on glyceryl stearate and lecithin liquid which are both listed as an emulsifier/co-emulsifiers.

 

I had originally thought of using the UltraPureGel followed with a co-emulsifier. Then I opted for xanthum as I thought maybe it would be easier to work with and perhaps have more label appeal. I have never worked with either before. I am a little intimidated with working with "gel" thickeners as they can go wrong it you don't mix them right. I will try both.

 

There is one more gelling product I have heard about from Humblebee & Me but haven't purchased. It is called Aristoflex which is listed as a polymer. So there is that.

 

Well I can definitely try out the UltraPureGel as I should be getting that in a few days. Funny how my original instinct is usually the best option. But then I start to overthink.

 

I guess I will try a simple experiment of blending xanthum in water to see for myself how it feels. 

 

Anyway the tip about polymers is very helpful. I think I was on the right track and would have stumbled on the right ingredient eventually. Thanks TT.

[Candybee]

2 hours ago, NightLight said:

They won’t emulsify. You need to use an emulsifier with oils and water. Go to Swiftcrafty blog.

This is where you want to learn how to formulate.

https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/?s=Gels+serum

She goes over various products that can help you achieve your product.
I personally not a fan of xanthum gum. It can feel like sticky snot, there are other ingredients out there for you.

Xanthum gum has its use in small amount, like tiny to stabilize emulsions freeze thaw.

 

You got me curious about the xanthum gum so I will be doing a simple test of mixing it with water just to see for myself. You can only tell so much from Youtube videos. I don't use Swiftcraftmonkey as she charges fees on her website. Nothing wrong with that I just got out of the habit of relying on her info as it doesn't come free. I checked out the link but i there is limited info as I am not a member and can't sign in to get the full story. Thanks, I appreciate your efforts. Again this is exactly why I don't use her website.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Candybee

[NightLight]

Sign up for five dollars and you will have wealth of info you can keep for future testing. If you want clear then you use water soluble ingredients with the gum if you are dead set on it. If you want to use oils it will not be clear without an emulsifier. Now you should test other ingredients for skin feel. I learned a ton from Swift website.

[TallTayl]

Aristoflex is nice. I got some way back when through a co-op before it was available retail in small amounts and was impressed.

 

I love gelmaker from making cosmetics.  Soooooooo easy.

 

pemulen products were simple too. I’s been a while since I used them.

[NightLight]

look here for ideas

 

https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Serum-Gel-Formulas_ep_83.html?lang=default

 

https://lotioncrafter.com/blogs/facial-care

 

swift has this to buy

Rheology Modifiers: Gels, Gels, Gels

Learn how to make thick, suspending gels to create exfoliating products; light, hydrating toners and moisturizers; and bouncy body and facial serums filled with all kinds of vitamins and cosmeceuticals.

 

 

[NightLight]

Each material has a different feel and you have to test. Also each play well with some ingredients but not others.

[Candybee]

13 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Aristoflex is nice. I got some way back when through a co-op before it was available retail in small amounts and was impressed.

 

I love gelmaker from making cosmetics.  Soooooooo easy.

 

pemulen products were simple too. I’s been a while since I used them.

 

I hadn't heard of gelmaker. Aristoflex is also at making cosmetics so maybe its time to get both of them to try out. Where do you get pemulen?

[Candybee]

12 hours ago, NightLight said:

look here for ideas

 

https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Serum-Gel-Formulas_ep_83.html?lang=default

 

https://lotioncrafter.com/blogs/facial-care

 

swift has this to buy

Rheology Modifiers: Gels, Gels, Gels

Learn how to make thick, suspending gels to create exfoliating products; light, hydrating toners and moisturizers; and bouncy body and facial serums filled with all kinds of vitamins and cosmeceuticals.

 

 

 

these are very interesting links. Thanks!

[Candybee]

12 hours ago, NightLight said:

Each material has a different feel and you have to test. Also each play well with some ingredients but not others.

 

Yes. I have been testing some formulations for an eye cream and decided I did not want an eye cream or serum after all. I used to buy an eye gel from L'oreal that I really love but would rather learn how to make my own.

[NightLight]

Try Gelmaker EMU liquid is easier than powder. Very easy to use and you can whip up your dream gel cream with it.

You can do cold process with distilled water and ingredients. A little goes a long way so keep percentage low under 3 per cent. More like 1-2 percent.

 

INCI Name: Sodium acrylate / sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate copolymer, isohexadecane, polysorbate 80

Benefits:

- Excellent thickener by forming gels over a wide ph range (4-12)
- Emulsifies all kinds of oily phases (up to 40%) including silicones and vegetable oils without the addition of a conventional emulsifier
- Able to produce cold emulsions
- Stabilizes emulsions and maintains the viscosity of a formula
- Gives light and pleasant texture to spread on skin

Use: Emulsions: 0.5-2%. Can be added into fat or water phase, or at the end of emulsification. Needs good mixing with hand mixer to get smooth creams. Gel creams: 1-5%. When using over 3% use at least 12% oils for best performance. For external use only.

Applications: Gel-creams, emulsion-gels, cold emulsions, lotions, creams, skin-whitening /self-tanning products, sun care & baby care products, mascara, foundations.

Country of Origin: France

Raw material source: Sodiumacrylate, sorbitol, vegetable oils, petroleum derivatives

Manufacture: The copolymer is made by polymerization of sodiumacrylate and sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate monomers. Isohexadecane is made in a multi-step process to form a branched C16 hydrocarbon from petroleum derivatives. Polysorbate 80 is obtained by esterification of sorbitol with one or three molecules of a fatty acid including stearic, lauric, oleic, and palmitic acid.

Animal Testing: Not animal tested

GMO: GMO free but not certified

Vegan: Does not contain animal-derived components

[Candybee]

3 hours ago, NightLight said:

Try Gelmaker EMU liquid is easier than powder. Very easy to use and you can whip up your dream gel cream with it.

You can do cold process with distilled water and ingredients. A little goes a long way so keep percentage low under 3 per cent. More like 1-2 percent.

 

INCI Name: Sodium acrylate / sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate copolymer, isohexadecane, polysorbate 80

Benefits:

- Excellent thickener by forming gels over a wide ph range (4-12)
- Emulsifies all kinds of oily phases (up to 40%) including silicones and vegetable oils without the addition of a conventional emulsifier
- Able to produce cold emulsions
- Stabilizes emulsions and maintains the viscosity of a formula
- Gives light and pleasant texture to spread on skin

Use: Emulsions: 0.5-2%. Can be added into fat or water phase, or at the end of emulsification. Needs good mixing with hand mixer to get smooth creams. Gel creams: 1-5%. When using over 3% use at least 12% oils for best performance. For external use only.

Applications: Gel-creams, emulsion-gels, cold emulsions, lotions, creams, skin-whitening /self-tanning products, sun care & baby care products, mascara, foundations.

Country of Origin: France

Raw material source: Sodiumacrylate, sorbitol, vegetable oils, petroleum derivatives

Manufacture: The copolymer is made by polymerization of sodiumacrylate and sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate monomers. Isohexadecane is made in a multi-step process to form a branched C16 hydrocarbon from petroleum derivatives. Polysorbate 80 is obtained by esterification of sorbitol with one or three molecules of a fatty acid including stearic, lauric, oleic, and palmitic acid.

Animal Testing: Not animal tested

GMO: GMO free but not certified

Vegan: Does not contain animal-derived components

 

I was reading about gel maker on making cosmetics and they had 3. But I didn't see the gel maker EMU. The ones I looked at were powders; gel maker PH, powder, and style. Plus the INCI is not the same as what you have posted here. So where do you find the gel maker EMU?

[Candybee]

Hmmmm.... just found it listed on Amazon but it was unavailable. Maybe that's why its not showing up at making cosmetics. Must be OOS. Been having a little bit of trouble getting ingredients these past few weeks due to the shortages.

 

Just got some packages delivered a few minutes ago. Maybe my ITDF ultra-gel has arrived....

[NightLight]

ITDF S gum is a nicer gum than xanthum. If you want to make a gel cream, adding a gum, or carbomer, or polymer works. You do have to test percentages of emulsifier with additive percentage for texture. Too much and it feels yucky. Formulations sample shop has some additional gums, you might want to test. Solagum, siligel.

Lotioncrafter preneutralized carbomer is easy to use, and adds that kind of feel to emulsion.

 

 

[TallTayl]

23 hours ago, Candybee said:

 

I hadn't heard of gelmaker. Aristoflex is also at making cosmetics so maybe its time to get both of them to try out. Where do you get pemulen?

The name of the now closed supplier of pemulen escapes me at the moment. I have not looked for more since the original shipment, but pemulen TR-1 and Tar-2 products made me forever hate the feel of older style emulsifiers that feel tacky, sticky, and waxy. 

[Candybee]

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

The name of the now closed supplier of pemulen escapes me at the moment. I have not looked for more since the original shipment, but pemulen TR-1 and Tar-2 products made me forever hate the feel of older style emulsifiers that feel tacky, sticky, and waxy. 

 

I did find a pemulen product at essential ingredients; pemulen 1621 & 1622. But I think that website is for large manufacturers as you have to call for samples and I did not see purchase listings so you can't simply buy something online there. But I'm glad I found the website as they have some interesting information and a formulary of downloadable formulations on cosmetics to cleaners and lots more.

[Candybee]

TT & NightLight, you both have given me a lot of ingredient ideas and I want to thank you for them. I am at the point I just need to start trying out gels to see what I like or which might work for my formulation. That should take me a while. I think the next step then is to try emulsifiers with the selected gel(s) to see which/what one(s) are compatible. From there I have a number of additives I want to use. If I have my emulsified gel system I want to use I still have to see which additives will work without breaking it down or changing it and then I still have to test out a preservative. I can see this will be a great exercise in learning about cosmetic gel making.

 

Will probably post my efforts as I go. It would be nice to have a place to log my results and findings as I develop it. 

 

BTW-- I recently purchased a couple of books on the science of making cosmetics. It was just not enough for me to make a simple whipped body butter. When I went from whipped body butter to an emulsified body butter it just opened up a whole new world for me and I realized I really wanted to understand the science of how different ingredients work together in cosmetics. I found emulsions very intriguing but complex as you have cold processed and heating process, co-emulsifiers and then you had to know a bit of their molecular structure and polarity properties to mix ingredients efficiently so emulsions stay emulsified and don't cancel out the properties you want in your formula, etc. It just seems a bit overwhelming to me at the moment. Even though I have been making emulsified lotions, creams, and body butters for the past year I find the more I learn the less I know about the science of making a good emulsion. I also have a lot of questions as my emulsions can be anywhere from creamy to lotiony, fluffy like marshmallow fluff that deflates or is way too light and floofy to heavy and thick or even a bit watery. That is why I would love to have a good basic knowledge of how it works so I can create the stable emulsions I want. 

 

I tend to get pretty wordy so I will stop here.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Candybee

[NightLight]

It really depends on your emulsifier and other ingredients. Some emulsifiers do creat light and fluffy, some are robust and make thick emulsions, and then you can combine emulsifiers, and coemulsifiers and thickeners. It’s good to get lots of samples and find your favorite emulsifiers and thickeners then you will have knowledge how to create the feel you want. Now throw in procedure. Read the tech tips on using emulsifiers they are good for troubleshooting.

Preservatives can mess you up, they can break emulsions. A good one to use when tinkering around is germall - it’s very easy to use and never had one cream or lotion go bad. The usage rate is low too.

Ewax and BTMS are popular, but there are other ones that are better. You can combine Ewax and BTMS also.

[Candybee]

4 hours ago, NightLight said:

It really depends on your emulsifier and other ingredients. Some emulsifiers do creat light and fluffy, some are robust and make thick emulsions, and then you can combine emulsifiers, and coemulsifiers and thickeners. It’s good to get lots of samples and find your favorite emulsifiers and thickeners then you will have knowledge how to create the feel you want. Now throw in procedure. Read the tech tips on using emulsifiers they are good for troubleshooting.

Preservatives can mess you up, they can break emulsions. A good one to use when tinkering around is germall - it’s very easy to use and never had one cream or lotion go bad. The usage rate is low too.

Ewax and BTMS are popular, but there are other ones that are better. You can combine Ewax and BTMS also.

 

This past year I have been working with e-waxes and BTMS from WSP. I have both BTMS 25 & 50, e-waxes; traditional, conditioning plus, and soft & silky. They are my beginning foray into emulsions and helped open up that world of cosmetic emulsions. I am just a beginner but already see the possibilities and that is why I want to know more.

 

This may sound lame but another reason I want to know more is because one recipe, a shampoo bar or was it a conditioning bar? Anyway, it called for BTMS 50 at a very high % of the recipe which would make my shampoo bars outrageously expensive. I perused some formulators websites, blogs, and forums to find out why. I also wanted to know if I could make a more cost effective substitute. I thought, the only ingredient missing between BTMS 25 & 50 is the butylene glycol and wondered why can't I just use BTMS 25 and add the butylene glycol myself? So the more I delved into finding the answer the more I started learning about how some ingredients work together while other combinations change the entire formulation. 

 

So I don't just want to learn about the emulsions I also need to know enough to make cost effective substitutions if you kwim. 

 

[NightLight]

Conditioner bars BTMS is kind of gold standard, but you don’t have to add all the other ingredients. Pare down.

I personally can’t do BTMS conditioner bars with all the added butters. Recipe for weighted down hair.

Shampoo bars experiment. Some people like a lot of extra this and that. I like the simple but that’s me. You have to test and see how you like the feel in hair. Butylene glycol is very handy. Sodium lactate handy. Experiment. Take one recipe and try very small batch to test as ingredients can get speedy. I would get a small hand mixer from AMZN to do test batches. You might want to get scale that measure tiny amounts. I got mine from lotioncrafter handy when working with additives in teeny amounts BUT you won’t waste materials. Some of your formulas will take a number of tries, I can often do ten tries for a formula to fine tune it.

[Candybee]

49 minutes ago, NightLight said:

Conditioner bars BTMS is kind of gold standard, but you don’t have to add all the other ingredients. Pare down.

I personally can’t do BTMS conditioner bars with all the added butters. Recipe for weighted down hair.

Shampoo bars experiment. Some people like a lot of extra this and that. I like the simple but that’s me. You have to test and see how you like the feel in hair. Butylene glycol is very handy. Sodium lactate handy. Experiment. Take one recipe and try very small batch to test as ingredients can get speedy. I would get a small hand mixer from AMZN to do test batches. You might want to get scale that measure tiny amounts. I got mine from lotioncrafter handy when working with additives in teeny amounts BUT you won’t waste materials. Some of your formulas will take a number of tries, I can often do ten tries for a formula to fine tune it.

 

Great advice! I had already just purchased a small scale from Amazon along with a small set of beakers and a small hand held frother. This way I can measure and weigh out small amounts for testing. I already have another small combo battery operated hand blender with several attachments for mixing, blending, etc., and some small spatulas for mixing. So I think I am set for testing out small batches.

 

Yes it was the conditioner bars that called for a high amount of BTMS 50. I think after researching and reading about them I may hold off and do a regular hair conditioner lotion instead. I did not like the sound of the conditioner bars making my hair heavy and/or greasy or having to rinse with apple cider vinegar after. Although, using one occasionally could be a good conditioning treatment. Anyway, instead I want to focus on making my own shampoo bars and liquid hair  conditioner lotion.

 

But first I want to experiment with making a soothing eye gel. Its something I really need as I get tired itchy eyes and the gel is really soothing. I dad been working on some eye creams and although they are nice are not the same as a good soothing eye gel.

 

[TallTayl]

BTMS-50 is 50 % behentrimonium methosulfate.  Btms25 is 25% behentrimonium methosulfate. I use the btms225 from Rita Corp which is local to me, which has 22.5% behentrimonium methosulfate,  

 

the difference between 50 and 25 is pretty noticeable, but from 25 down to 22.5 not so much.
 

btms 25, 50, etc needs other ingredients to “pay out” product to hair in a solid bar form. Nobody wants to stand in the shower rubbing a hard waxy feeling bar over and over to get some benefit to the hair.  I guess this is why so many new formulators use butters.  It keeps the bar hard while releasing a good deal more oil and emulsifier to hair so people feel like it “works”.

 

 

[Candybee]

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

BTMS-50 is 50 % behentrimonium methosulfate.  Btms25 is 25% behentrimonium methosulfate. I use the btms225 from Rita Corp which is local to me, which has 22.5% behentrimonium methosulfate,  

 

the difference between 50 and 25 is pretty noticeable, but from 25 down to 22.5 not so much.
 

btms 25, 50, etc needs other ingredients to “pay out” product to hair in a solid bar form. Nobody wants to stand in the shower rubbing a hard waxy feeling bar over and over to get some benefit to the hair.  I guess this is why so many new formulators use butters.  It keeps the bar hard while releasing a good deal more oil and emulsifier to hair so people feel like it “works”.

 

 

I see WSP has BTMS 50 listed at behentrimonium methosulfate, cetyl alcohol, and butylene glycol. Sooooo, would that be 50% behentrimonium methosulfate? and the remaining 50% split between the cetyl alcolol and the butylene glycol? Those two could be split 50/50 or 25% each.

 

I also see WSP has BTMS 25 listed as cetearyl alcohol and behentrimonium methosulfate. So would the cetearyl alcohol be 75% and the behentrimonium methosulfate be 25%?

 

I had not realized til now that the 50 uses cetyl alcohol and the 25 is cetearyl alcohol. So thats another difference. Also, the 25 has cetearyl alcohol listed first so that's why I thought it may be at 75% as the behntrimonium methosulfate is at 25%? Am I right?

 

BTW-- my BTMS 25 hasn't arrived yet so I haven't tried it yet.

 

But I do remember in my research some formulators saying that BTMS 25 won't work in the conditioner bars. Plus something else about having to have a good solvent? for the conditioner to wash out? I don't think they meant water. But something to help rinse out the residues so your hair doesn't get greasy, heavy. Or maybe I am mixing that up with the shampoo bar recipe. Sigh...