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Why doesn't everyone just use GG palm wax in containers?


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Ok... the title is obviously a little tongue-in-cheek, but there is a small amount of seriousness in the question.  :) 

I've only been doing this a couple years or so, and still have a TON to learn, but seriously... this wax is so easy and consistent (my current mis-labeled boxes of wax non-withstanding). I started out playing with various types of soy wax (which was an endless nightmare), followed by 3 or 4 of the most loved parafins, and continuing with various pre-blended parasoys and then trying my own blends. Basically over a year of what added up to a time-consuming, expensive, dissapointing, lackluster mess.

And then I tried plain old IGI 2322A Glass Glow palm.

Beautiful candles, fairly easy to wick (assuming you can live with one or two CSN wicks in your particular jar/FO), easy to mix and pour, consistent, cheaper than most waxes, easier tool clean up (for me at least), simple to remove leftover wax from a jar and toss in a melter (and left with a clean jar after a simple wipe with a paper towel), as good or better scent throw than other waxes at less FO %, and it has that whole "all-natural/organic/non-petroleum" tag attached to it.... and it seems to be fairly unique and exotic, at least around here.

So why doesn't everyone jump all over GG palm?

In other words... what is the massive, nightmarish brick wall ahead of me that I'm not seeing yet?   :D

Edited by calan
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In my case it is jar limitation mostly.  The jar needs to be tall-ish and narrow-ish to work well with palm. My brand for the last decade relied on tins which were a no go with palm. 
 

second was availability. Many places would go OOS for long time spans if I didn’t catch the timing right. This was a big issue when candle science decided overnight to just plain stop selling palm wax products 🤬. Now with CSN wicks discontinued that is even bigger of an issue.
 

third is familiarity with soy - my base customers already knew and believed in soy wax with no special “selling” needed. Cold throw is generally less with palm with of course exceptions. Had I not been overwhelmed with beeswax pillars and soy wax containers I might have added some “stained glass”/ “fairy glass” candles for pops of color and something different. 
 

I will occasionally make a palm candle for myself, but can’t seem to find the HT others remark about.
 

I hope this wax works epically well for you! It sure is beautiful wax to look at. 

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@TallTayl

 

Well, you've seen and responded to my posts since I first found this forum, so I'm sure you know a little of how I got here.  (and it's greatly appreciated BTW).  :)

I went through the whole "Jar flip? WTH? I have to turn a jar of hot wax upside down?", etc... tested dozens of candles to my anal-rententive extremes, and recently saw the info about discontinued CSN wicks which made certain parts of my body pucker up a little (which BTW, they seem to have plenty in stock right now...I just bought a couple years worth).

At least for me, in 9 oz straight-sided jars and the small 8 oz mason jars, this wax is excellent and just plain hard to screw up. I made a couple of 16 oz salsa jar test candles a week or so ago when I couldn't find any more 9 oz jars, and even the first blind stab at a larger wick size workd fairly well on those too. As far as HT, I haven't found anything that throws differently in 2322 than any of the other waxes I tried. In fact, several FO's that I couldn't throw in other waxes even if I used a full wind-up while it was still in the bottle, seemed to throw better in the 2322 at 5%.

Maybe I'm still just too new at this, or maybe I'm lucky enough to not have an established customer base with expectations. :)

Edited by calan
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Similar to Talltayl the biggest issue for me was jar limitations and “save the rainforest” people around my area - a few times, especially around the holidays it was hard to get but I think a couple more suppliers picked it up if I’m not mistaken which helps 

 

I love palm personally and do make them for myself in the 16 ounce colored jars with no dye, I have had pretty good luck with throw with both CSN and RRD wicks - the RRD are amazing in palm pillars and I get even better throw with those than I do the jars but they are directional wicks so if your using a spool you have to of had your coffee and pay attention (ask me how I know) 

if your ever in need of CSN 11 let me know I have thousands I purchased direct because CS did not carry that size 


Have fun with it and somewhere in here is a thread from Candybee who uses palm on the flip method to prevent the air pockets that its notorious for...that was another issue I had mainly out of limited experience with the wax and that can cause some serious wick flares which can get very scary 

Edited by moonshine
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40 minutes ago, moonshine said:

if your ever in need of CSN 11 let me know I have thousands I purchased direct because CS did not carry that size 


Have fun with it and somewhere in here is a thread from Candybee who uses palm on the flip method to prevent the air pockets that its notorious for...that was another issue I had mainly out of limited experience with the wax and that can cause some serious wick flares which can get very scary 


It seems that I always need a CSN 8. I use mostly 7's and 9's, and in a few FO's it seems that a CSN 8 would come in handy.  :)

The flip is super easy and not even a second thought now. I was just intimidated by the thought of it at first, and it just took a minute for my brain to come around to the idea of flipping a jar full of hot wax upside down.  lol  

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I don’t have much experience with palm yet, just got some Glass Glow and CSN wicks to play with, if it works good in 8oz jelly jars then I’m just gonna use that from now on. 
 

Does seem a bit easy, I’m waiting for the ‘catch’ to reveal itself, there’s always something not quite right.
 

 

Edited by ErronB
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I've thought about it...extensively....but my main container seems to be between wick sizes using CSN wicks, and I just never seem to have the time to figure that out.  I do a lot of feather palm pillars, which I absolutely love making, but the sales aren't there for me.

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20 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

I've thought about it...extensively....but my main container seems to be between wick sizes using CSN wicks, and I just never seem to have the time to figure that out.  I do a lot of feather palm pillars, which I absolutely love making, but the sales aren't there for me.

Do you find palm containers generally burn faster than other waxes?

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Just now, TallTayl said:

Glad it is not just me... thought I was losing  it. 🤪

What I can't figure out is why, in a side by side comparison with paraffin pillars, palm pillars don't seem to burn as disproportionately fast as palm containers.   

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Palm containers will burn faster if they are in shouldered container. Keeps the heat in.

 

I love palm container candles. Have not played much with them but the scent throw cold and hot are really good. Plus they look amazing.

I do not think many people get how they burn compared to regular paraffin or soy candles. Learning curve on a tag.

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10 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Do you find palm containers generally burn faster than other waxes?

 

10 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Most definitely.  


They do seem to burn faster for me also, especially if I'm stuck with the hotter CSN 9 wick because the CSN 7 is leaving too much wax.

But I'm hoping that will just lead to people needing to buy another beautiful palm candle sooner than later.  :D

****

I really wish there more good wicks available. Besides the availability issues with CSN's now, I've noticed a lack of consistency (quality control?) with them. I've had CSN7's that burn almost identically to CSN9's in two candles poured from the same pitcher, at the same time, into the same jars. And looking at the wicks in the bags, there seems to be variations in the wick diameters, so that some of them could be either CSN7 or CSN9.

Fortunately, either one seems to work fine in my jars with most FO's. It's just a matter of a little more wax being left or not. And if there is some wax left, it's really simple to just chip it out of the jar and dump it into a melter. It just breaks up and falls away from the jar, leaving almost perfectly clean glass. A quick wipe with a paper towel and the jar could be reused as is, although I do wash them with soapy water before reuse.

As an example of how clean it comes out of the jar...I've cored several test candles to swap wicks. I just core around the wick, dump out the broken up wax, and then use a flat-tip screwdriver to reach in and peel the wick sticker free. I can then reach into the hole with a paper towel (or even just the tip of my finger) and wipe away the wax at the bottom...and a new wick sticker will stick just as good as when the jar is fresh out of the dishwasher.

It's a very unique wax.

Edited by calan
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For me personally, I haven't been able to truly investigate palm wax, so I have not bought any.  I know there are serious problems with the palm oil industry.  I see that one popular supplier has made a statement on their website, which I need to learn more about, but since I haven't had the time to do the research, I've simply stayed away from any purchases of palm wax period.  It's my personal belief that if as a consumer I can make any small difference, I try to do my part.

 

From this link  ...   If you are reading this article but buying your palm elsewhere, make sure to ask your distributor for the manufacturer. After we added Sumi Asih wax, many other suppliers followed. Be skeptical if they will not share that information with you. But beware, according to Andrew Bulter, of British cosmetics company Lush, there is "no such thing as sustainable palm oil: it doesn't exist".

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@calan

So why doesn't everyone jump all over GG palm?
In other words... what is the massive, nightmarish brick wall ahead of me that I'm not seeing yet?

 

I don't think there is any nightmarish brick wall front of you using Palm Wax.  I love those looks that palm wax creates.  But I prefer to use colored jar over clear one due to colors fading under direct sun light or store lightings.  And, I find that hydrogenated palm oils(fully or partially) work better if it is used as additives.  Many big name brand candle companies use it as additives in their candles.

 

I believe you have tried mixing different waxes before.  Have you tried adding oils or partially hydrogenated vegetable oils?  It is much easier than blending different waxes, and you will be surprised with the results.  It can change total characteristics of crappy Pre-blended waxes that we are getting from candle suppliers.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, BusyBee said:

Have you tried adding oils or partially hydrogenated vegetable oils?  It is much easier than blending different waxes, and you will be surprised with the results.  It can change total characteristics of crappy Pre-blended waxes that we are getting from candle suppliers.  

 

No, but I'm always willing to try a proven recipe if one falls into my lap. :D :D :D 

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I've been making and selling palm wax container candles made with Glass Glow or Crystal palm for many years now. I had started out with paraffin but when soy came along everyone wanted soy so I had to switch cause no one was buying paraffin back then. I had to quit using soy because I got horrible skin rashes from working with it so looked to try another wax and that's when I discovered and started working with palm. It was fairly new on the market back then. It was nice to not have to deal with no more rashes either so I stuck with it. I really fell in love with palm and my customers eventually excepted the palm and now are just as big a fan of it as I am and keep coming back every year to buy their candles from me. But that also has to do with making a good product, marketing, and a solid customer base that took years in the making. That can be done with any wax product.

 

So for me switching to palm was due to lack of sales with paraffin and the health issues I endured using soy. Ending with palm is because I just love the ease of making candles with it compared to say soy. Just about any FO I test it in throws like crazy.

 

But there are and have been big and little issues with palm wax consistency and availability over the years. It does not have a good steady track record of either. It is still iffy during peak times whether its available or not so you have to learn to get it when you can and buy extra so you don't run out during the season.

 

Honestly my all time favorite wax is the old Honeywell J container paraffin waxes J233 and J50. They are still available under IGI. Boy I miss those old waxes. They threw like the dickens and the way the FOs smelled was so natural. 

 

I find paraffin is the best for florals and fruits while soy is excellent with bakery while palm is good with woods, pines, resins, and earthy types. 

 

Lately I have been thinking of starting with another wax and working with mottling wax. I want to make paraffin container candles that are mottled. But for now I will stick with the palm as my customers expect it.

 

 

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Would Bath & Body Works candle recipe considered as proven recipe?  Here it is!

In order to beak down this recipe, you need to know the CAS NUMBERS (8016-70-4).  Percentage of blend is still our job to figure it out.  But when we have this, it should be a lot easier.   PM me your email address.  I will send you some files regarding CAS Number & others if you are interested.

 

Frosted Cranberry

3-Wick Candle

UPC#: 667553889836

 

Ingredients:

Hydrogenated Soybean Oil(8016-70-4,Wax),

Paraffin(8002-74-2,Wax),     *IGI 1230 Fully Refined Paraffin Wax: 10 -30%

Hydrogenated Palm Oil(68514-74-9,Wax),

Microcrystalline Wax (Cera Microcristallina, Cire microcristalline)(63231-60-7,Wax),

 

Fragrance (Parfum)(Fragrance Ingredient),

Benzyl Benzoate,

Sorbitan Oleate(37318-79-9,Emulsifying Agent),

Butyl Stearate(123-95-5,Emulsifying Agent),

Linalool,C7-9 Esters of Benzotriazolyl-Dimethylethyl-p-Hydroxybenzenepropanoic Acid(Stabilizer),

Bis(Octyloxy-Tetramethyl-Piperidyl) Sebacate(Stabilizer),

Pentaerythrityl Tetra-di-t-butyl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate(6683-19-8,Stabilizer),

Limonene,

Citral,

BHT(128-37-0,Stabilizer),

 

Solvent Red 24 (CI 26105)(85-83-6,Colorant),

Disperse Violet 26 (CI 62025)(Colorant),

Solvent Orange 7(Colorant),

Solvent Blue 36 (CI 61551)(Colorant),

Solvent Green 3 (CI 61565)(128-80-3,Colorant),

Solvent Red 26(Colorant),

Solvent Yellow 56 (CI 11021)(Colorant)

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22 hours ago, calan said:

 


They do seem to burn faster for me also, especially if I'm stuck with the hotter CSN 9 wick because the CSN 7 is leaving too much wax.

But I'm hoping that will just lead to people needing to buy another beautiful palm candle sooner than later.  :D

****

I really wish there more good wicks available. Besides the availability issues with CSN's now, I've noticed a lack of consistency (quality control?) with them. I've had CSN7's that burn almost identically to CSN9's in two candles poured from the same pitcher, at the same time, into the same jars. And looking at the wicks in the bags, there seems to be variations in the wick diameters, so that some of them could be either CSN7 or CSN9.

 

Right now I am using CSN9's on 12oz jars. If you are wicking jelly jars or similar size I would go with the 7. Make sure you do your test burn all the way to the very end of the candle. With palm you always want to test with the smallest possible wick for the jar to get the best burn. You will get a much better hot throw and it will burn slower to. A plus that! Same thing with FO. Whatever you think is the best amount, try a smaller %. Example, if you are currently using 6% fragrance oil load go down to 3-5%. Test each % as the lesser amount will actually give you a better throw. I am using 5% for the majority and 3-4% on stronger oils like pines. With palm, less is always more.

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4 minutes ago, Candybee said:

 

Right now I am using CSN9's on 12oz jars. If you are wicking jelly jars or similar size I would go with the 7. Make sure you do your test burn all the way to the very end of the candle. With palm you always want to test with the smallest possible wick for the jar to get the best burn. You will get a much better hot throw and it will burn slower to. A plus that! Same thing with FO. Whatever you think is the best amount, try a smaller %. Example, if you are currently using 6% fragrance oil load go down to 3-5%. Test each % as the lesser amount will actually give you a better throw. I am using 5% for the majority and 3-4% on stronger oils like pines. With palm, less is always more.


In the 9 oz straight-sided jars, I usually get a just a little wax left on the sides at the bottom with CSN 9's, and more with 7's. But it depends on the FO, and as I mentioned up there ^, the wicks seem to be a little inconsistent sometimes. I've just been mixing 5% across the board on all FO's.  

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2 minutes ago, calan said:


In the 9 oz straight-sided jars, I usually get a just a little wax left on the sides at the bottom with CSN 9's, and more with 7's. But it depends on the FO, and as I mentioned up there ^, the wicks seem to be a little inconsistent sometimes. I've just been mixing 5% across the board on all FO's.  

 

Have you tried RRD's? They are also made by Wedo and came before CSNs were invented. They work almost identical to CSNs and are perfect for palm waxes. They other thing is you might get a better fit in wick size with an RRD. It's worth a test shot. I believe CW carries a few sizes of RRDs. I think C&S carries more but I have to check their website to be sure I am remembering that correctly.

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Just smelled the CT on my testers... holy jesus... they are crazy strong, very nice. Dying to burn them but gonna leave them for another 5 or so days as I've heard anything sooner is a bad idea with palm if you're trying to wick test.

 

I didn't know exactly how bad the air pockets can be until I cracked the top on one as it was setting, it's no joke, now I understand why people flip them. The glass adhesion is a bit iffy in a couple of spots, but hopefully I'll be able to get it down better next time. 

 

I couldn't notice any burned off notes in the fragrances either after adding them at 200, smells promising, I hope the HT is as impressive as the CT.

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22 hours ago, TallTayl said:

What size RRD would line up with csn 7 or 9?

They aren't exactly equivalents but I would say RRD 29 & RRD 34 would be the closest. I'm sure Candybee knows better than I do, but that's my best guess.
IME, CSN 9 and RRD 34 both work well for my 16oz square mason jars, but CSN burns with a smaller flame than RRD.  Neither self-trim, but RRD seems to need a little more trimming.

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