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Pouring and adding FO cold


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Hey guys,
I‘ve been doing so much research on all things candles that wax is running through my veins. 
During my research I‘ve found a method that suggests adding FO as cold as possible and pouring cold instead of manufacturer’s instructions of adding FO at a certain higher temperature. The reasoning for this method being that FO and wax doesn’t „bind“ as it‘s often proclaimed, but rather mixes/dissolves. And when FO is added at high temperatures it‘s being burned of, no „binding“ occurs. Now this reasoning sounds perfectly reasonable to me as 1) manufacturers often sell FO and when it‘s burned off during curing we are supposed to add more for a good throw, 2) „binding“ of wax and FO doesn’t really make sense as that would imply that those two components would form a new molecule and finally 3) during the time the wax cools it‘s basically at full melt pool for a long time, releasing scent until the wax has hardened. 
So I‘m wondering if any of you have tried this and how your results have been.
I’ve tried this with a coconut+rapeseed+beeswax blend +10%FO but my throw isn’t as great as I had hoped, now I don’t know if I’m nose blind to the scent I’ve been testing, the wick doesn’t work or if I didn’t stir for long enough (definitely didn’t stir for 2 minutes) 


I‘m slowly losing my mind over here hehe 

 

Thanks 

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Adding FO cold is a good recipe fo pooling and seeping of FO. If using a lower flashpoint fragrance, that pooling and seeping is a fire hazard,  there is no conspiracy by FO sellers here, just bad advice.

 

Quality FO will withstand any temp you throw at it and will produce fab HT.  Example, palm wax requires temps in excess of 200*F and holds a max of 6%  FO . Some formate of palm hold even less, yet easily can outperform most of those soy and paraffin candles with 12% FO and “cold” pouring temps. 

 

Many wax blends contain components (emulsifiers, structurants, etc) that independently have very different drop points. If you don’t heat the entire mass to the recommended temps to fully remelt and incorporate those components you will often get odd crystal formation that may not be initially visible to the naked eye. 
 

If you want an eye opening experience that replicates what damage a candle can do in someone’s home, do a little experiment where it is safe to do so.  Let some low FP oil pool in the bottom of a jar with a little wax, then hold a match to it.  You will have essentially made a fire ball. Keep these things in mind as you create products for use in people’s’ homes. Their safety is of much greater concern than supposedly preserving a little HT. 

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6 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Adding FO cold is a good recipe fo pooling and seeping of FO. If using a lower flashpoint fragrance, that pooling and seeping is a fire hazard,  there is no conspiracy by FO sellers here, just bad advice.

 

Quality FO will withstand any temp you throw at it and will produce fab HT.  Example, palm wax requires temps in excess of 200*F and holds a max of 6%  FO . Some formate of palm hold even less, yet easily can outperform most of those soy and paraffin candles with 12% FO and “cold” pouring temps. 

 

Many wax blends contain components (emulsifiers, structurants, etc) that independently have very different drop points. If you don’t heat the entire mass to the recommended temps to fully remelt and incorporate those components you will often get odd crystal formation that may not be initially visible to the naked eye. 
 

If you want an eye opening experience that replicates what damage a candle can do in someone’s home, do a little experiment where it is safe to do so.  Let some low FP oil pool in the bottom of a jar with a little wax, then hold a match to it.  You will have essentially made a fire ball. Keep these things in mind as you create products for use in people’s’ homes. Their safety is of much greater concern than supposedly preserving a little HT. 

I haven’t had the seeping or pooling issue but the throw was really bad, which usually isn’t the case with this wax. But I do see where you‘re coming from, I was just hoping this might be a possibility to increase throw even more (apart from using proper wick etc) 

I‘m sorry if it was dumb of me to ask but I‘ve seen this suggested in videos, even by a candle scientist. 

https://youtu.be/c7OnNZou2bU

https://youtu.be/_akWOi6lug4


I definitely want to make my candles as safe as possible and am making sure I extensively test them. 
Do you happen to have a recommendation for great high quality fragrance oils? 

Thank you so so much for you insight! 

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There are other posts regarding the Alex method if memory serves me right. I’ve tested both from time to time and the ht was the same. There were a few differences, not many. 

As of Saturday I poured testers with my 50/50 blend of 464 and 4630. I added the fo below 130. Stirred for 2 min. Yes, the wax was clouded but still liquid. One they solidified the ct was stronger than I’d had ever! I can’t expl this phenomenon. I lit 2 out of 3, 3 days later, ht amazing, still scratching my head! I thought maybe the fo was sitting on top of the wax and not fully incorporated but they are burning beautifully. No fireballs, thank goodness.

Im guessing if I were to repeat this process things might turn out yet another way!

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16 hours ago, CandleRush said:

There are other posts regarding the Alex method if memory serves me right. I’ve tested both from time to time and the ht was the same. There were a few differences, not many. 

As of Saturday I poured testers with my 50/50 blend of 464 and 4630. I added the fo below 130. Stirred for 2 min. Yes, the wax was clouded but still liquid. One they solidified the ct was stronger than I’d had ever! I can’t expl this phenomenon. I lit 2 out of 3, 3 days later, ht amazing, still scratching my head! I thought maybe the fo was sitting on top of the wax and not fully incorporated but they are burning beautifully. No fireballs, thank goodness.

Im guessing if I were to repeat this process things might turn out yet another way!

Interesting, thank you for sharing your experience! Weird that it always turns out different though 🙈

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The tag line for that video, "Perfect Candles Every Time," is very misleading.  I don't know this YouTuber and I don't know what his qualifications are, but if he's never used an FO that wouldn't blend in at Alex method temps, he's can't be widely experienced.  I have multiple FO's that will not incorporate at temps that low. Some barely want to cooperate at 185, so I give them extra stir time on the heat source. Not once has the throw been diminished due to this.  YouTube advice is notoriously unreliable.  

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To be fair, those have been you’re experiences and to say you must heat at 180 and above and if you’ve never tested the Alex method do you really know the results? My testing IS valid and I know the results. Adding fo 130 and even lower gave me great results 5 out of 5 had cold and hot throws that were strong.

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On 3/11/2020 at 4:06 PM, CandleRush said:

To be fair, those have been you’re experiences and to say you must heat at 180 and above and if you’ve never tested the Alex method do you really know the results? My testing IS valid and I know the results. Adding fo 130 and even lower gave me great results 5 out of 5 had cold and hot throws that were strong.

Are you still doing the Alex method?

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Every now and then! You can read my comments above where I had great results. I repeated the same process yesterday with my testers and the cold throws were strong. Today I lit them and the hot throws, 2 out of 3 testers were strong. This round of tests I mixed in f.o. At 140. Stirred 2 min. The same wax as I used in my above comment. Perfectly smooth candles, no seeping, eco wicks.

When I first started making candles I used the Alex method. So many here were naysayers and maybe for them and their wax it might be true what they say but I’ve had success. I then started to do what everyone else recommended but my results were all over the place, not fully content I went back to the Alex method a variation where I added fo lower. Manufacturers have have their guidelines but I think you have to test other methods. This may not work for everyone but it has for me. 

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Woud you see the seeping right away?  Or after a week or for. . .  The reason I ask, I've made candles that looked great.  Then a couple weeks later, had oil seeping on the tops.  I wasn't using the Alex method by the way.

GoldieMN

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1 hour ago, GoldieMN said:

Woud you see the seeping right away?  Or after a week or for. . .  The reason I ask, I've made candles that looked great.  Then a couple weeks later, had oil seeping on the tops.  I wasn't using the Alex method by the way.

GoldieMN

I have seen it weeks later, especially if there’s a temp change. Crystallization continues for many weeks with waxes like soy. 
 

even American Soy Organics warned about “Fragrance Drift” in their waxes. Some of the worst pooling and seepage I ever had was with midwest soy. the absolute worst was their advice for improving HT WITH “high melt point coconut at 10%”. I had to mop the seepage off the tops in warm humid months. 

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  • 4 months later...
On 3/21/2020 at 6:28 AM, TallTayl said:

I have seen it weeks later, especially if there’s a temp change. Crystallization continues for many weeks with waxes like soy. 
 

even American Soy Organics warned about “Fragrance Drift” in their waxes. Some of the worst pooling and seepage I ever had was with midwest soy. the absolute worst was their advice for improving HT WITH “high melt point coconut at 10%”. I had to mop the seepage off the tops in warm humid months. 

@TallTayl I had this same issue with coconut wax. I even contacted the manufacturer and sent pictures. I think I was heating the wax at too high a temperature and adding the FO and pouring too hot.  what was really weird is it only happened to some of the candles not all and one batch was 8% FO and the other was 6%.  I am going to re-make but this time heat up 15-20 degrees less and add my FO about 5 degrees lower than that and see if it happens.  One of the candles I had was really bad and but I had not made it but I know it was made with the same wax I use so I have no idea what temps they used. Plus I live in AZ and it doesn't get humid here

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1 hour ago, Marisa11 said:

@TallTayl I had this same issue with coconut wax. I even contacted the manufacturer and sent pictures. I think I was heating the wax at too high a temperature and adding the FO and pouring too hot.  what was really weird is it only happened to some of the candles not all and one batch was 8% FO and the other was 6%.  I am going to re-make but this time heat up 15-20 degrees less and add my FO about 5 degrees lower than that and see if it happens.  One of the candles I had was really bad and but I had not made it but I know it was made with the same wax I use so I have no idea what temps they used. Plus I live in AZ and it doesn't get humid here

Also experiment with pouring temp and cooling rate. 
 

sometimes cooling too slowly will create new problems. 
 

let us know what you learn ❤️

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15 hours ago, Testing123 said:

In my candlemaker I put unmelted wax and fragrance in then heat it and melt it all and pour. Candles come out normal.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why candle making recipes have typically always called for melting the wax first and then upon cool-down, adding scent.  It's kind of like dessert recipes that always tell you to add the flavoring last, there are reasons for these things.

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That's an interesting comparison. I wonder if the idea of adding FO at certain temps is based on the boiling points of fragrance components. Like adding vanilla extract to a custard or fudge after removing from heat to avoid boiling/cooking off the vanilla's notes. Vapor pressure, boiling point, flashpoint... Maybe there is something to it?

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55 minutes ago, Kerven said:

That's an interesting comparison. I wonder if the idea of adding FO at certain temps is based on the boiling points of fragrance components. Like adding vanilla extract to a custard or fudge after removing from heat to avoid boiling/cooking off the vanilla's notes. Vapor pressure, boiling point, flashpoint... Maybe there is something to it?

 

I think it probably has more to do with incorporating a liquid into a liquid, with the melted wax in a state that puts it in a welcoming atmosphere to the fragrance oil.  It seems if you add scent to wax chunks or flakes, some of that oil is going to flow down to the bottom of the pot where it's going to get pretty hot. 

 

As for vanilla and other flavorings or spices, there are many that linger in the substance if they're added last, such as garlic; and, with vanilla, since it's an extract, it probably does burn off, whereas fragrance oil is much less likely to do that as it's made for being able to withstand some heat.  I've always allowed my wax to cool somewhat before adding scent, but I honestly feel that the best way to make sure it's mingled with the wax is to gently stir along the way, and definitely just before pouring.  I see many people say "stir for X-amount of minutes" ... but if they're not giving it a stir again prior to pouring, I'm not sure it matters as much ... it's probably better to stir for a minute+ and then stir again later than it is to stir-stir-stir only one time, that's just my opinion, off-topic as it may be!

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I tried the Alex method several times, only once did it work. Usually with any wax I will never add the FO under 185-190. Especially with coconut blends, I'll heat the wax to 200 first just to make sure it's opened up properly then add the FO around 190.

 

Saying that, with some batches of 464 I've had, I couldn't get ANY hot throw unless the FO was added at a lower temp, not as low as the Alex method, but at 160. At 10% load there was no fragrance seeping, or any problems even 2 months after being on the shelf. Only problem I had was I couldn't ever find a good temp to get smooth tops with the latest batches I tested.

 

So to cut a long story short, any kind of low temp methods are a bad idea in general, but on the rare occasion like I had with 464 it 'can' work depending on the FO's you use. If i was using heavy scents like bakery or FO I'm sure it would be more problematic.

 

 

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Ok so I had much better results by not heating the wax to 200+ degrees and adding the FO at a lower temp. The new candles that I added the FO at the lower temp of 180/175 I have not noticed any seepage. They are curing covered in the same location my other candles were.  It has been almost 2 weeks of curing and have not noticed any seeping. Will still keep an eye.

 

However, I think I still need to heat the jars or place in a cool oven because I had a ton of wet spots

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/24/2020 at 3:43 PM, birdcharm said:

 

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why candle making recipes have typically always called for melting the wax first and then upon cool-down, adding scent.  It's kind of like dessert recipes that always tell you to add the flavoring last, there are reasons for these things.

 

I hear you.  My techniques are commensurate to the type of business I'm running. The candles I sell are highly customizable and therefore made to order..one by one. I have NO competition on the market right now because making the candles i make is hard (but high profit and personally the process is very satisfying). It's a multi step process to make these candles. All the other steps besides the actual candlemaking take up a lot of time. So therefore I prefer not to spend more time waiting for wax to melt. I don't have time to stand and stir in fragrance when the wax reaches the "right" temperature. I pop it all into the candlemaker (I have 10 of them) and let the magic happen. I can do other things while the wax and fragrance are melting and mixing. My pattern of repeat customers and no complaints on candle performance (as well as my own tests) tell me that my method of adding fragrance to unmelted wax works.

 

Candlemaking the old-fashioned way is not efficient for my business. The best advice I ever got regarding business is "run it the way that works for you".

 

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