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4786 overrated wax


Fireside
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Are there 4786 users anymore or has this wax phased out of its days due to 4630 / 4627?  I feel the throw is reasonable if the oils are but not sure if it lasts, still testing against CW 141 and 129.  I like that it is creamy and on the firm side but not sure if firm enough on its own for heat and shipping.  However, many more wax makers nowadays swear the softer the wax, the better the throw.  Therefore, adding pillar wax to it seems the opposite of what many believe.  Also am not sure if I like the shine aspect using it alone yet.  I know EVERYONE has a different opinion on their wax of choice and throw is subjective on many accounts....but there does seem to be a trend of 4630 / 4627 being the most popular.  Plus CS discontinued it years ago for lack of sales so I just wondered if this is a dying wax or people who use it just are not known?...

Edited by Fireside
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@Fireside, I strongly believe that the softer waxes do NOT make a better melt. I have teasted a lot of different combinations, and in my experience any blend with more than 30% soft wax will throw strongly in the short term, but has poor longevity. It may "fill the room" within a few minutes, but a couple hours later it's faded to practically nothing. Maybe if one has an older mid-sized bulb warmer that struggles to generate heat, a soft wax will perform better. But warmers are trending back to the hot-plate style or big 25 watt bulbs, which means a wax with a higher melt point will release the fragrance in a slower and more even rate. That means fragrances with nuanced layers smell stronger, and fragrances of all types last longer.

Of course there may be exceptions, and everyone has their preference, but this is what my own testing has led me to believe. 

Right now my favorite tart wax is the palm 2 crystal pillar wax. Holy moley, the throw is so strong, and they last forever. Recently I mixed some CBL141 with the palm pillar, and that was pretty awesome too.

I think if you are testing the harder waxes and are happy with the results, than roll with it. Confidence in your product trumps catering to a trend every time.

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I also worry 4786 would melt in the heat...even though it is such a hard wax to break up, it can be very bendy vs breaking like iceberg pillar wax lol.  I do see a few people on groups blending it with container wax which makes it even softer so maybe using it alone would be fine!  Now I may have to try palm 2 🙄

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I have used 4786 for 19 years and I am still very satisfied.  The only difference that i have noticed is that it is definitely easier to break.  I tried the one-pour but just didn't get the HT or the vibrant colors that i get with the 4786.  The 2nd pour is well worth it to me.

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It has given me good results for melts.  My problem with it is I just think it resembles the clamshells you find in stores and only some of those in stores have worked well for HT.  Also since it looks like store bought clams, it makes me feel I have nothing superior over their $2-$3 pricing for the same looking wax.  Maybe I'm overthinking that aspect.

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:09 PM, Sarah S said:

@Fireside, I strongly believe that the softer waxes do NOT make a better melt. I have teasted a lot of different combinations, and in my experience any blend with more than 30% soft wax will throw strongly in the short term, but has poor longevity. 

@Sarah S isn't your favorite wax though 125?  Unless you mean this when it comes to candles...

 

I do have CW palm 1 in my stash.  My only issue with this wax is I found some candles I made months ago with it that had very poor cold throw and I was not totally impressed with the hot throw once I scraped it out or the jar.  Will never do that again by the way, its dangerous since it's harder than even a pillar wax lol.  I used good oils on the candles also so not sure why it had a off smell, light CT and average HT.  The oils I used were FM cinnamon roll and lemon biscotti, also CW pumpkin pancakes...all great in paraffin.  I had made one scent in melts (wsp banana pineapple) with the palm 1 however and I'm on day 3 still smelling it.

 

Edit to add: I do think I remember someone saying palm is knock your socks off for floral, fresh, spicy, and pine but not their favorite with bakery oils.  Now I wonder 🤔

Edited by lovelyscents
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@lovelyscents, yes the 125 is my favorite for candles! 💕💕 I also love the palm 1 too, for candles, it's ok in melts. Palm 2 pillar is much better for melts, imo.

In my experience, bakery scents can throw well in palm, but they throw BETTER in paraffin. So like the Lemon Biscotti, for example, it will blow the doors off in 125, but is moderate in palm. I think if I didn't know what a stellar performer it was in paraffin, I would be more satisfied with it's throw in palm. Same with CW's Pumpkin Pancake (have you tried that one? It's amazing!), phenomenal in paraffin, ok in palm.

Maybe it's something about the buttery notes? Cardamom and Star Anise is great in palm, as is CS's Cinnamon Chai, ICS's Toasted Marshmallow, and CW's OMH. So I think it's very specific bakery types that's struggle, and not all food or spicy or vanilla types.

Like I mentioned, I've been playing with mixing 141 and palm 2 for tarts, with good results, but I've only tried a few fragrances so far, and none are bakery. I'm out of Lemon Biscotti, maybe I need to order some for the greater good and test it! 😁😁

 

 

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23 hours ago, lovelyscents said:

It has given me good results for melts.  My problem with it is I just think it resembles the clamshells you find in stores and only some of those in stores have worked well for HT.  Also since it looks like store bought clams, it makes me feel I have nothing superior over their $2-$3 pricing for the same looking wax.  Maybe I'm overthinking that aspect.

 

I agree with that thought process. I like to have a unique product, otherwise why not buy from the store? 

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15 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

@lovelyscents, yes the 125 is my favorite for candles! 💕💕 I also love the palm 1 too, for candles, it's ok in melts. Palm 2 pillar is much better for melts, imo.

In my experience, bakery scents can throw well in palm, but they throw BETTER in paraffin. So like the Lemon Biscotti, for example, it will blow the doors off in 125, but is moderate in palm. I think if I didn't know what a stellar performer it was in paraffin, I would be more satisfied with it's throw in palm.

That makes sense, dont know what you're missing if you didnt try it haha!

15 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

Same with CW's Pumpkin Pancake (have you tried that one? It's amazing!), phenomenal in paraffin, ok in palm.

Yes, that is one of the oils in the palm candles I dug out that didnt do as well as expected but in paraffin, its phenomenal!! 

15 minutes ago, Sarah S said:

Maybe it's something about the buttery notes? Cardamom and Star Anise is great in palm, as is CS's Cinnamon Chai, ICS's Toasted Marshmallow, and CW's OMH. So I think it's very specific bakery types that's struggle, and not all food or spicy or vanilla types.

Like I mentioned, I've been playing with mixing 141 and palm 2 for tarts, with good results, but I've only tried a few fragrances so far, and none are bakery. I'm out of Lemon Biscotti, maybe I need to order some for the greater good and test it! 😁😁

 

 

Definitely a great oil but I think you're doing great with your testing.  Have not tried the palm 2 but may skip it since paraffin gives great results in my tests plus my favorite is bakery so I better stick with what wax I know favors those 👌😁

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I'm just gonna take my lil 4794 and go sit in the corner LOL 

You lovely's have done a lot of fantastic testing and I am definitely going to keep this topic marked for future reference. 

I've just always had amazing results with my wax and 1:1 ratio and it's so versatile for everything I do... but I won't fib, my interest is peaked about palm for melts....hmmm.... 

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  • 3 weeks later...

No worries blacktie, many still use and love 4794 without issues as well.  I have not tested that one much due to reading so much about longevity not being there with that one.  However, we all get different results half the time so I should.  I hear 129 is using the 4794 base so I am assuming if I like 129 best, I would be satisfied enough with 4794.  What about KY 133/Problend 450/JS paraffin pillar votive tart wax by CJ Robinson?  I am thinking CJR and IGI are the most used when it comes to paraffin???

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Preferences vary so much with tart wax, I think even more so than with candle wax because you don't have to worry about wick performance. Some people love soft waxes for scoops, some love pillar waxes for clams, some love a blend that's in between. And when you add in veggie waxes, sky's the limit!

 

3 hours ago, Fireside said:

No worries blacktie, many still use and love 4794 without issues as well.  I have not tested that one much due to reading so much about longevity not being there with that one.  However, we all get different results half the time so I should.  I hear 129 is using the 4794 base so I am assuming if I like 129 best, I would be satisfied enough with 4794.  What about KY 133/Problend 450/JS paraffin pillar votive tart wax by CJ Robinson?  I am thinking CJR and IGI are the most used when it comes to paraffin???

 

I personally did not like the KY 133 at all, the dimples were so ugly, and it did not wow me in the throw department. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't meet someone else's' requirements! Even though I am very happy with the waxes that I use, I still like to try other waxes out as budget permits, just to see how they perform. Knowledge is never wasted!

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  • 8 months later...
On 5/5/2019 at 7:34 AM, Fireside said:

Are there 4786 users anymore or has this wax phased out of its days due to 4630 / 4627?  I feel the throw is reasonable if the oils are but not sure if it lasts, still testing against CW 141 and 129.  I like that it is creamy and on the firm side but not sure if firm enough on its own for heat and shipping.  However, many more wax makers nowadays swear the softer the wax, the better the throw.  Therefore, adding pillar wax to it seems the opposite of what many believe.  Also am not sure if I like the shine aspect using it alone yet.  I know EVERYONE has a different opinion on their wax of choice and throw is subjective on many accounts....but there does seem to be a trend of 4630 / 4627 being the most popular.  Plus CS discontinued it years ago for lack of sales so I just wondered if this is a dying wax or people who use it just are not known?...

I use both actually. I use the 4786 in Apothecary jars because that wax is so easy to wick and the colors you get in it are so nice along with a great CT and HT. It looks so perfect after every burn with that nice smooth creamy surface. I also use it for melts and brittle wax and never had to add a harder wax to it.  I was using 4627 but switched to 4630 for ease of handling but so far I only use it for tins and painted jars because the wet spots it gets look so much worse than what 4786 gets, and from what I have dealt with while using the 4630 is that it isn't a 1 pour wax, maybe in tins but not glass jars, Its close but still sinks down enough to need a top off. Could be the lot #  I got, I don't know, Im still on my first box of it.  I wanted to try the 129 because of the reviews but the $114 shipping for 1 $75 box of wax aint cutting it for me.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/20/2020 at 5:46 PM, CaptnKush said:

I use both actually. I use the 4786 in Apothecary jars because that wax is so easy to wick and the colors you get in it are so nice along with a great CT and HT. It looks so perfect after every burn with that nice smooth creamy surface.

 

@CaptnKush I have 10 lbs of the 4786 laying around in my shop.  Any advise on where to start with wicking the Apothecary jars? 

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4 hours ago, IwantItgreen said:

 

@CaptnKush I have 10 lbs of the 4786 laying around in my shop.  Any advise on where to start with wicking the Apothecary jars? 

You can use a single lx 26 or dbl 44 zinc. I use dbl on the 8oz jars only. I know lots use dbl wicks on the big ones but I found that the jar got real hot. The 60 zinc tunneled on me, but if you use  candle toppers with that candle then the zinc will work good.

 

 

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4 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Anyone else notice that 4786 creates wicked tall flames when lighting? Even happens in blends of 4786.  

Yes only on the first light.  What I  did to fix this is cut the wick shorter than 1/4" otherwise on your first lighting,  the flame burns away a small portion of wax leaving a longer than normal length of wick sticking up with a high flickering flame. After that its all fixed. I have a video but your server won't accept the format and the free video converters aren't free if you convert. Lame. If you have a converter I can send you the video from my phone. I have 1 showing a 1/4 tall wick and the other with it trimmed after first lighting it.

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7 minutes ago, CaptnKush said:

Yes only on the first light.  What I  did to fix this is cut the wick shorter than 1/4" otherwise on your first lighting,  the flame burns away a small portion of wax leaving a longer than normal length of wick sticking up with a high flickering flame. After that its all fixed. I have a video but your server won't accept the format and the free video converters aren't free if you convert. Lame. If you have a converter I can send you the video from my phone. I have 1 showing a 1/4 tall wick and the other with it trimmed after first lighting it.

I notice it upon lighting each time, unless wicks are cut super short.  
 

I think mccalls uses 4786 (or someone darned close to it). Looks, feels, lights and burns the same.

 

edited to add, can you load to Facebook group? I am in the process of creating a craftserver YouTube account too. This way we can share away!

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12 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

I notice it upon lighting each time, unless wicks are cut super short.  
 

I think mccalls uses 4786 (or someone darned close to it). Looks, feels, lights and burns the same.

 

edited to add, can you load to Facebook group? I am in the process of creating a craftserver YouTube account too. This way we can share away!

Ok its up on your FB group

 

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With all your experience with candles on top of being a rocket scientist :D I am surprised you hadn't made a youtube group a long time ago. I think you can actually make money off of it. I think you would put ole Standley to shame.

 

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53 minutes ago, CaptnKush said:

Yes only on the first light.  What I  did to fix this is cut the wick shorter than 1/4" otherwise on your first lighting,  the flame burns away a small portion of wax leaving a longer than normal length of wick sticking up with a high flickering flame. After that its all fixed. I have a video but your server won't accept the format and the free video converters aren't free if you convert. Lame. If you have a converter I can send you the video from my phone. I have 1 showing a 1/4 tall wick and the other with it trimmed after first lighting it.

I have this same problem with palm wax candles.  I start them out at 1/8 inch and tell all of my customers to trim to 1/8 inch.  They work a lot better that way.

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3 minutes ago, CaptnKush said:

With all your experience with candles on top of being a rocket scientist :D I am surprised you hadn't made a youtube group a long time ago. I think you can actually make money off of it. I think you would put ole Standley to shame.

 

Lol. I hear you.  While it has not been about the money, It has been on my list for years. It Came down to time and energy (and a side helping of “can I take the heat?”). I have more of both time and energy now. 
 

since leaving the Faire And pulling back from local volunteering and promoting other artists, I have several very big goals. If I put this out to the universe in writing it will happen. Ready?
 

1) revamp Craftserver. Organize it with a much easier to navigate “start here”. I’m getting tired just thinking about the monumental task this one is all by itself. lone step at a time. Add wick and wax tests. Open the Fragrance Co-Op club so we can share better fragrances.
 

2) vlog daily. Whether to my little farm channel, my biz channel or to the craftserver channel, do one daily. I talk to myself as I embark on these things, why not record it for the voyeurs 😂?
 

3) Ok, two is enough for now. 

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