Not as happy as I thought I'd be with container palm.

[bfroberts]

Kinda disappointed actually.  I've been pouring a lot of palm pillars and I'm happy as a clam with those.  So then I thought I might transition over to container palm for my containers since I'm not super happy with recent batches of 4630.  I've got my wicking down pat with the container palm, or so I thought, but I'm having major problems with HT.  CT is great.  HT - not so much.  Several scents that I've used for years just will not throw with this wax.  It reminds me of my frustration when I was using soy, and I thought that was long behind me.  

 

I was under the impression that palm would throw most anything (kinda like 4630), and in my past dabbling I was happy with it.   Now that I've started testing ALL my normal product line FO's with this palm I keep running into road blocks.  I'm using container palm from Candlewic, 5-6% FO, and I've tested RRD  and CSN wicks.  Curing at least a week.  It just blows my mind that some of my staple FO's won't throw.  Is this normal?  This finicky-ness with FO's? Would another palm wax possibly be better?  This is my first experience with CW's palm.  I used to buy my palm from Peak.

[Jcandleattic]

I get most my palm wax from C&S, not CW - but I only use about 3-4% FO, cure for about 3-4 days, and my scents throw just as well, or better, than my paraffin wax. 

From everything I've heard CW palm is better because they manufacture it there themselves, so less chance of inconsistencies. 

Have you tried a different series of wicks? I know CSN's were specifically made for palm, and I know a lot of people use them, but I could never get them to burn my candles correctly. 

Other than that, I'm really not sure. sorry. 

[bfroberts]

Thank you for the input.   I was using the CSN wicks with the pillars and they also burn very well in my containers, so I thought I would streamline by using all CSN.  I also tested RRD but didn't get any noticeable difference in throw.  I have tested CD and Premier both with palm in the past, and it would probably be a good idea to give those a whirl while I'm at it.  Should probably try dropping my FO load to see if that makes a difference.  Stranger things have happened.

 

I am getting some super strong throws with some of my FO's, but the ones that aren't throwing at all have just stumped the heck out of me.  My florals and herbals are blowing the doors off.  Most fruits are doing well.  My tobacco isn't throwing, my spicy apple that I've used forever isn't working, nor is my vanilla.  It's just really blowing my mind.  

[Jcandleattic]

that's odd. In mine my spicy/autumn/etc., candles throw the doors off my house and I have to keep that fo load to 3%. More and it'd be too strong. 

I use CD's in both my palm pillars and palm containers. 

[Sarah S]

I am having the exact same situation! I am also using the palm 1 from Candlewic, and I thought for sure I must be doing something wrong. A couple of my fragrances are strong, but several that are good in paraffin just aren’t throwing for me. I’m mainly using the CSNs, but I’ve also tried HTPs and Premiers. Now, I haven’t tested a ton, so the issue still could be me, lol. 

I’m finding the wicking is so much tricker than I thought it would be! The CSN definitely burn the best, but it seems that either the wick is way too big or way too small, and there are so few sizes in between! There are more size options with the premier, but they don’t seem to burn as well. And getting the melt pool and flame big enough to throw but small enough to maintain a slight shell is such a delicate balancing act!

Clearly I was spoiled with my CBL! 🤣

[kandlekrazy]

May be a bit too much fo for container palm.  I also use 3-4%, use CSN or Cotton core wicks & cure 2-4 days.  @Candybee makes a lot more palm containers than I do so maybe she will chime in here.

[Moonstar]

On 7/5/2018 at 2:39 PM, Sarah S said:

I am having the exact same situation! I am also using the palm 1 from Candlewic, and I thought for sure I must be doing something wrong. A couple of my fragrances are strong, but several that are good in paraffin just aren’t throwing for me. I’m mainly using the CSNs, but I’ve also tried HTPs and Premiers. Now, I haven’t tested a ton, so the issue still could be me, lol. 

I’m finding the wicking is so much tricker than I thought it would be! The CSN definitely burn the best, but it seems that either the wick is way too big or way too small, and there are so few sizes in between! There are more size options with the premier, but they don’t seem to burn as well. And getting the melt pool and flame big enough to throw but small enough to maintain a slight shell is such a delicate balancing act!

Clearly I was spoiled with my CBL! 🤣

Cbl ??? They no longer make it ?

[bfroberts]

It hasn't been as easy a transition as I thought it would be.  I'm gonna drop the FO load and see what happens.  If palm isn't finicky with FO's, then the problem is obviously in my process, and I've got plenty of experience working with that kind of failure...LOL

 

One thing I have noticed with a couple of my scents is that the fragrance is more...what's the words I'm looking for.....true, I guess.  The scents is more true with palm than with 4630 or 6006.  Specifically, I've got a Spicy Apples & Peaches that is a big seller in melts but it was always a little off in a candle. Yet in the palm wax, it smells just like the melts.  The palm also doesn't seem to be as picky with heavier scents as other waxes.  I'm not having to wick up as often as I do in the other waxes.  
 

 

[Candybee]

I've used CW container palm for years with no problems. At 6% FO load the scent blows the doors out. But if you have been sitting in the same room for a while you can develop candle nose. If you walk out of the house for a few minutes and go back in you should smell the scent again. What I love about palm is the scent can be strong without being overpowering.

 

Lately though I have been using glass glow from C&S for the past couple years so its possible CW could have changed their wax but I would be very surprised if they did. They process their palm wax on site in their factory in PA from scratch so you get the best consistency out of any wax I have ever experienced. Its consistent from batch to batch unlike other palm waxes I have used including IGI GG.

[Sarah S]

Thank you @Candybee for bumping this back up. I have a few more questions, and I've been meaning to ask @bfroberts how her testing is going.

So I think my problem initially was 100% my A/C system and the air flow in my house. I know better, but I decided to start my testing in the middle of a heat wave with the air conditioner roaring and the fans on full blast. 🙄 So now that I've been able to shut down the A/C for at least a few hours every day to test, I've been getting better results.

I definitely get a good HT with a 7% load, but that brings on wicking issues. Without fail, the wick always needs to be a full size smaller than my "naked" control candle, and in a couple situations that's not even small enough. And of course the wax consumption rate is really high in those, and I don't get the pretty glow I'm after.

I tried a few at 5% load, and while the burn is definitely better, the HT is just not strong at all. If I'm sitting right next to it, I smell it, but even in the man cave and in my daughter's room, where the throw can be gaggingly strong, I'm just not smelling much. My kids agree, and my tester told me that she prefers the throw of the parrafin candles I make.

I am really hoping that at 6% I will find the sweet spot of good burn and good HT. 

I'm using the CSNs with CWs Palm wax. I've tried the Premiers, because they have so many more sizes, but after the first burn the wick seems to have difficulty drawing the wax. I'm sure I could fix it if I tried more sizes, but the CSNs work really well so I'm sticking with them. I just wish they offered the CSN5 with a 6" wick. 

Is it usual to have to wick down for every fragrance? I'm used to have a 4 size range for my containers with parrafin, so this is throwing me off. I'm literally using the same size wick for every single FO. 

I think my technique is solid, I'm heating the wax to about 210, adding the FO and pouring almost right away. 

I love the look of these candles, so I am happy to keep testing and enjoying them for myself, but I'm starting to get down to the wire for my fall line and I'm stressing a bit. I am confident that I have a great looking, safe burning candle, but if the HT isn't there, I am going to have some unhappy customers.

 

@Candybee, you use CSNs, yes? Do you generally have to wick down? And do you experience a difference in the burn from summer to winter?

@Jcandleattic, how large are your candles? I'm wondering if maybe my 8oz tumblers and 16oz jars just aren't big enough to generate the kind of throw I expect? Do you use a lot of different types of fragrance?

@bfroberts, are you still testing?

@ncraiders, how is your testing going? I know you were not too happy with your tarts, have you been working on your candles much?

Thanks as always for the input everyone, and for just being a great sounding board. 😁🤓

[ncraiders]

1 hour ago, Sarah S said:

@ncraiders, how is your testing going? I know you were not too happy with your tarts, have you been working on your candles much?

Thanks as always for the input everyone, and for just being a great sounding board. 😁🤓

I am still in the wick testing stage on my candles.  Currently waiting for my most recent test candles to cure.  I am testing CD-20 & CD-22 atm.  If CD's don't work i will have to try another wick series which means looking for another option at that point.  Downside of using a 4" apothecary jar with my palm wax.  My tarts are actually working out a better now that i have blended it.  I am using 80% GG and 20% feather palm in the tarts.  Really helped the breaking of my tarts.

[bfroberts]

@Sarah S, The real life job got super dee duper busy, and I had to put my testing on the back burner for a bit.  I haven't poured a single candle since I wrote the original post.  BUT...for the last few days I've been burning those testers I wasn't happy with initially, and they are doing great.  I can only conclude that either they needed a bit more cure time or my nose needed a reset.  All but one is throwing like a champ.  My vanilla tobacco FO that usually throws well in 4630 & 6006 just isn't working in this wax, but everything else is doing great.  I'm pleased as punch.

I've got to get back to pouring and settle on a container.  My best seller with 4630 is a 9oz straight sided jar, but I do not like that jar with palm wax.  My status jars seem to be between wick sizes so I've either got to work that out or pick another jar.  Ugh.  It's always something.

[Sarah S]

18 hours ago, ncraiders said:

I am still in the wick testing stage on my candles.  Currently waiting for my most recent test candles to cure.  I am testing CD-20 & CD-22 atm.  If CD's don't work i will have to try another wick series which means looking for another option at that point.  Downside of using a 4" apothecary jar with my palm wax.  My tarts are actually working out a better now that i have blended it.  I am using 80% GG and 20% feather palm in the tarts.  Really helped the breaking of my tarts.

 

If you can figure out the wicks, I bet the apothecary will look awesome and throw great too!

I haven't really done much with my tarts, I should get on that too. I think my family is getting tired of smelling Christmas in July. 😂

 

17 hours ago, bfroberts said:

@Sarah S, The real life job got super dee duper busy, and I had to put my testing on the back burner for a bit.  I haven't poured a single candle since I wrote the original post.  BUT...for the last few days I've been burning those testers I wasn't happy with initially, and they are doing great.  I can only conclude that either they needed a bit more cure time or my nose needed a reset.  All but one is throwing like a champ.  My vanilla tobacco FO that usually throws well in 4630 & 6006 just isn't working in this wax, but everything else is doing great.  I'm pleased as punch.

I've got to get back to pouring and settle on a container.  My best seller with 4630 is a 9oz straight sided jar, but I do not like that jar with palm wax.  My status jars seem to be between wick sizes so I've either got to work that out or pick another jar.  Ugh.  It's always something.

 

Thats great news about the throw! It's funny, one of my poor performers is a blend with tobacco. Anything with pine, floral, or citrus does really well. 

My plan is to stick with the straight jar and the tumbler with palm, and continue to offer some scents in parrafin in the straight jar and a limited holiday run in apothecarys. The testing will continue, but I think if I have a backup plan with my tried and true paraffin I will feel a lot less anxiety. 😎

[Jcandleattic]

22 hours ago, Sarah S said:

@Jcandleattic, how large are your candles? I'm wondering if maybe my 8oz tumblers and 16oz jars just aren't big enough to generate the kind of throw I expect? Do you use a lot of different types of fragrance?

My candles are 16 oz apothecary (using 16 oz wax, and .5-.7 oz fo) and 5 oz apothecary (pouring 4 at a time, each holding 5 oz wax and using .7 oz FO in 20 oz wax) 

 

I use many different types of fragrances from many different suppliers. Some straight OOB, many times in a blend or mixed. 

Like I said, unless it's a light scent to begin with they usually are strong and the 16 oz will fill my entire main level of my house, and the 5 oz will fill my kitchen, most of my front room, and a partial of my living room. (I text in the little area that connects my kitchen, front room, and mid-level living room) it will also ALWAYS collect at the top of my stairs, but all of the scents in my house collect there (candles, dinner, lawn when being mowed, etc. it's always a mingle of scents! LOL) 

[Sarah S]

Ok, well you blew that excuse for me! 😆😆

The testing shall continue! I just poured 5 more fragrances, and these will get a two week cure instead of the one I have been doing. Simply because I'm on vacation next week. Maybe my nose will get a good vacation too! 😉😉

[lovelyscents]

On 7/23/2018 at 4:35 PM, Jcandleattic said:

My candles are 16 oz apothecary (using 16 oz wax, and .5-.7 oz fo) and 5 oz apothecary (pouring 4 at a time, each holding 5 oz wax and using .7 oz FO in 20 oz wax) 

 

I use many different types of fragrances from many different suppliers. Some straight OOB, many times in a blend or mixed. 

Like I said, unless it's a light scent to begin with they usually are strong and the 16 oz will fill my entire main level of my house, and the 5 oz will fill my kitchen, most of my front room, and a partial of my living room. (I text in the little area that connects my kitchen, front room, and mid-level living room) it will also ALWAYS collect at the top of my stairs, but all of the scents in my house collect there (candles, dinner, lawn when being mowed, etc. it's always a mingle of scents! LOL) 

Even vanilla or bakery type oils throw this well for you?

[Jcandleattic]

1 hour ago, lovelyscents said:

Even vanilla or bakery type oils throw this well for you?

Yep. The melt pool discolors the wax in these type of scents after it hardens again, but not significantly and not unslightly. 

 

I can't think of a scent I've used that hasn't thrown very well in my palm wax. Where is your palm from? Maybe you got a bad batch? Sorry I can't be of more help. 

[lovelyscents]

On 1/31/2019 at 2:41 PM, Jcandleattic said:

I can't think of a scent I've used that hasn't thrown very well in my palm wax. Where is your palm from? Maybe you got a bad batch? Sorry I can't be of more help. 

Actually, I asked to help decide on quantity of palm vs paraffin to order.  Very new to palm, but not paraffin.  I'm glad you feel bakery does well in palm as I love everything else about it.  I noticed you use CD wicks.  Maybe the wick plays a part on bakery throw 🤔

[Jcandleattic]

22 hours ago, lovelyscents said:

Actually, I asked to help decide on quantity of palm vs paraffin to order.  Very new to palm, but not paraffin.  I'm glad you feel bakery does well in palm as I love everything else about it.  I noticed you use CD wicks.  Maybe the wick plays a part on bakery throw 🤔

Probably. I don't use CD's in my paraffin, just my palm. The other wicks I tried in palm just didn't work for whatever the reason. I'd have to be home to look at my notes on which wicks I used and why I decided against them. 

[lovelyscents]

7 minutes ago, Jcandleattic said:

Probably. I don't use CD's in my paraffin, just my palm. The other wicks I tried in palm just didn't work for whatever the reason. I'd have to be home to look at my notes on which wicks I used and why I decided against them. 

I definitely am going to test for myself as it's so variable, but I would appreciate that

[Jcandleattic]

1 minute ago, lovelyscents said:

I definitely am going to test for myself as it's so variable, but I would appreciate that

Well, I know for sure my z wicks did not work in palm, but I think it was due to how it burned, not necessarily throw. CSN's were close to CD's and I know a lot of people use them for their palm and get good results, but I could never find a good fit with the CSN's.

 

Which series/size wicks do you use? 

[Forrest]

On 7/5/2018 at 9:36 AM, bfroberts said:

since I'm not super happy with recent batches of 4630.

I'm scared to ask, as I just ordered some, but what problems have you been having with 4630?

[lovelyscents]

4 hours ago, Jcandleattic said:

Well, I know for sure my z wicks did not work in palm, but I think it was due to how it burned, not necessarily throw. CSN's were close to CD's and I know a lot of people use them for their palm and get good results, but I could never find a good fit with the CSN's.

 

Which series/size wicks do you use? 

Zinc for paraffin and ordering RRD and CSN to try with palm.  I am new to palm, so I was even debating the CD as you and someone else on here uses, the premiers someone suggested once, and I've even read eco being used years ago with success.  I guess the eco and premiers were said to be more of a tame flame.

[strugglebrother]

Could be worth trying BLSQ wicks too.

[bfroberts]

On 2/4/2019 at 1:08 PM, Forrest said:

I'm scared to ask, as I just ordered some, but what problems have you been having with 4630?

I had a batch that was super hard. Much more so than normal variations. I wasted 2 slabs trying to wick it and never could. That was some time last summer. Subsequent shipments have all been fine. Maybe it was just a fluke.  I don't know, but it was a total pain in the rear.