Vybar Good Or Vybar Bad?

[Quentin]

Could someone shed the light on the subject of Vybar? I've read articles that say it locks up the fragrance and those that say it helps the fragrance. I even read one article where the author said it did both! I've used only 1% in my pillars and never put it in container candles. I've never gone over that amount. Yet I seem to be getting no hot throw at all. Some have a really good cold throw but no hot throw at all. The fragrance is strong in the melting pot (even overwhelming) but once I pour into the mold or container and let them cool the fragrance disappears.  

 

This is happening regardless of what wax I use. The problem is across the board. I should also mention that I've been using 7% stearic from the start in my pillars and nothing but wax and fragrance in my containers. What can I do about this? Very frustrated right now.

Q

[ncraiders]

2 minutes ago, Quentin said:

This is happening regardless of what wax I use. The problem is across the board. I should also mention that I've been using 7% stearic from the start in my pillars and nothing but wax and fragrance in my containers. What can I do about this? Very frustrated right now.

Q

It would help to know what type of wax you are using?  paraffin, soy, or palm?  I don't use it but I imagine this will be helpful info for the people that do use it.

 

[Quentin]

Well like I was saying I've used lots of different waxes. I can narrow it down some on the containers since that's the area where I've spent less time. Mostly 444 Soy and now I'm giving GB 464 a shot. In my container candles, some of them tend to sweat out at the top. Too much fragrance maybe? But once again, I've used no additives in my containers yet. I've also had problems with container wax never really hardening completely and having a gummy, gooey, sticky consistency.

 

As for the pillars I've mostly used IGI 4625 Pillar blend but wanted something that was translucent.  I've tried CBL-41 Votive/Pillar blend, but it takes too much time to work with, what with all the topping off and back filling. I've got a some IGI 1343 A I'm going to try tomorrow for pillars. I have settled in at 7% Stearic acid and 1% Vybar in all my pillars. 

 

When I first started this last fall, before I came across this forum, I was using the junk from Michael's and Hobby Lobby and a "general purpose" wax I bought from Amazon. The people on the forum here clued me in and convinced me to look elsewhere.  Nearly every pillar I made with those had a blowout, so I want go back to that overpriced stuff. 

 

But let me just say again, I could count on two or three fingers the candles that have had an acceptable throw to them.

Q 

 

[scrubzz]

How much FO are you using per lb of wax?

[Quentin]

2 hours ago, scrubzz said:

How much FO are you using per lb of wax?

On my pillars for example, 6% unless the wax data says otherwise. If it says lower, like 3%, I give it 3% and no more. If the wax info says something like 12%, I might bump it up from 6% to 8%.  At 6%, a 16oz(1 lb) mold gets 0.96 ozs of FO. If I make 3 lbs of wax (48 ozs) at 6% load that would be 2.88 ozs of FO.  2.88 ozs. divided by 3 lbs. brings back me back to 0.96 oz. as a check on myself. So my answer to you would be 0.96 ozs/lb.??  Hmm, something looks wrong here. Am I making a math error? My poor math knowledge has crippled me my whole life. I'm unsure. If I'm wrong, just tell me. I can take it without being embarrassed. Lay it on me!

 

Oh, I should also let you know that I measure the amount of ozs I've arrived at on the scale, so I'm doing it by weight and not by volume. I think

[ncraiders]

Your math is correct and you are measuring by weight instead of volume.  A few questions i just thought of. 

 

What temp are you adding your fo into the wax? 

Do you have any candles at all that actually have a good/decent hot throw? 

How long are you letting your candle cure before test lighting?   

 

2 hours ago, Quentin said:

 

When I first started this last fall, before I came across this forum, I was using the junk from Michael's and Hobby Lobby and a "general purpose" wax I bought from Amazon. The people on the forum here clued me in and convinced me to look elsewhere.  Nearly every pillar I made with those had a blowout, so I want go back to that overpriced stuff. 

🤣 I have a small bag of pillar palm wax from hobby lobby.  I am to lazy to return it so i will just use it for some melts for my dad

[Candybee]

I think Talltayl is knowledgeable about vybar use. Hopefully she will chime in soon.

[Quentin]

29 minutes ago, Candybee said:

I think Talltayl is knowledgeable about vybar use. Hopefully she will chime in soon.

Hopefully. I know there are two types of Vybar. From what I read, I couldn't tell much difference in the two. I emailed the guy at the manufacturer. He said no more than 1% should ever be needed. That's the way he phrased it. He also told me you could make a 50/50 mix if you wanted to just as long as you don't go over 1% total.

Q

[Candybee]

From what I remember the difference between the two vybars has to do with the MP number of the wax. I could be wrong. I think a higher MP uses one kind while a lower MP wax uses the other. I do know you only need a small amount and yes it can lock up the scent if you use too much.

[Quentin]

39 minutes ago, ncraiders said:

Your math is correct and you are measuring by weight instead of volume.  A few questions i just thought of. 

 

What temp are you adding your fo into the wax? 

Do you have any candles at all that actually have a good/decent hot throw? 

How long are you letting your candle cure before test lighting?   

 

🤣 I have a small bag of pillar palm wax from hobby lobby.  I am to lazy to return it so i will just use it for some melts for my dad

That brings up a couple of good thoughts. Generally, I add the fragrance about 5 degrees higher than the pour temperature, take it off the heat and stir until it drops to the pouring temp. Then pour, of course.

 

I've had a couple of fair hot throws. If I burn the candle in a small room and walk away for awhile, when I come back I catch the scent right away. But that's not common. Yes everyone, I know to never leave a burning candle unattended. 

 

As far as curing time... I'm not very patient. It's sort of like Christmas Eve when you just can't wait till the morning to open the presents. I can't really give an exact time I use for curing. Overnight would be the best way I could answer.  Won't the fragrance evaporate if they sit for too long?

 

[Quentin]

19 minutes ago, Candybee said:

MP number of the wax.

I'm guessing that MP = Melting point?

[ncraiders]

26 minutes ago, Quentin said:

Won't the fragrance evaporate if they sit for too long?

No it wont evaporate over time, candles you buy in the store might have been sitting on a shelf for over a year before someone buys it and the fragrance is still there.  The entire time the candle is sitting there on the shelf is in itself a long cure time really.  the fragrance bonds to the wax in essence and only get released when it is being burned.  That is why cold and hot throw usually vary on the same candle.  For soy wax  you really need to let it cure for about 2 weeks.  burning a soy candle before it cures long enough generally effect the scent.  to get the best scent throw  you have to let it cure for a while.  that is one of the drawbacks some people don't like about soy is the long cure time.  Paraffin you don't have to let cure nearly as long.  tho i am not sure on the times for paraffin since i don't use it myself.

Edited May 28, 2018 by ncraiders

[Quentin]

1 hour ago, ncraiders said:

No it wont evaporate over time

Thanks. I now know what part of my problem is; PATIENCE.

[Pam W]

2 hours ago, Quentin said:

Thanks. I now know what part of my problem is; PATIENCE.

That's the most difficult part of this hobby.........I totally refuse to use any wax that requires me to show patience..I don't sell but just pour for friends/family/and myself.

Question:  depending on how your house is laid out, where are you testing your creations?  I ask this because I have found that it makes a big difference on the throw where I place my testers....like, does the A/C return suck up the scent; does the swamp cooler blow the scent out the open window,  etc, etc.

If I'm burning a candle in my bedroom with the swamp cooler running, I can't smell a darn thing in the room but if I got outside the window, I get a tremendous throw.......Being in a small 900 sqft cottage home, I have found that I need to pay attention to WHERE I burn my testers depending on the relative air flow....does that make sense?

[ncraiders]

3 minutes ago, Pam W said:

That's the most difficult part of this hobby.........I totally refuse to use any wax that requires me to show patience..I don't sell but just pour for friends/family/and myself.

I started messing with soy then quickly went to palm wax.  loving the decision i made.  I am still impatient to wait the 3-7 days for curing but it is a heck of a lot better than the 2 week wait i had when i made some soy candles.  Sadly in my parents house there is no room that will work properly for candle testing so i just test in my own room.  

[Pam W]

Ya know, so many candle makers have experienced a negative throw from their creation when the real culprit is the room circulation.....If I set a tester in my bathroom, turn on the A/C with the return in the living room, I can walk down the hallway toward the bathroom and get a tremendous scent throw.  With my little house, the throw is dependent on what room I'm burning the tester and the air return.

Back to the subject, I quit using vybar.......period.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Pam W

[birdcharm]

I think it goes like this with the vybar ... 103 is for waxes having melting points above 140°F and the other code number (which I can't think of at the moment) is for under 140°F.  If the wax you are using already some vybar or a similar additive included in it, then you may not need to use it, as too much can bind the scent too "tightly" to the wax. 

 

[ncraiders]

52 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

I think it goes like this with the vybar ... 103 is for waxes having melting points above 140°F and the other code number (which I can't think of at the moment) is for under 140°F.  If the wax you are using already some vybar or a similar additive included in it, then you may not need to use it, as too much can bind the scent too "tightly" to the wax. 

 

Based off of candlewic information all state in the info that it is for paraffin waxes

 

Vybar 103  For use with pillar waxes with melt points above 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

Vybar 260 Used with container waxes with melt points below 130 degrees F.

Vybar 343 is the newest member of the Vybar family and is a must for the production of mottled candles. This product allows you to increase the amount of fragrance you can add to your mottled candles. 

 

I also found this on there site.  Palm Stearic is a very effective additive to use with 100% soy based waxes. Palm Stearic will help increase the fragrance load in soy and paraffin waxes and will help you achieve a smooth even finish on your candles.  As well as firm it up.

 

One issue is that you really need to know what if any additives are already in your wax.  as some additives do not work well in certain waxes due to the additives they already added in the manufacturing process

Edited May 28, 2018 by ncraiders

[Candybee]

9 hours ago, birdcharm said:

If the wax you are using already some vybar or a similar additive included in it, then you may not need to use it, as too much can bind the scent too "tightly" to the wax. 

 

This! If you are using an already blended wax then it already has additives in it. Most waxes are blends, only a few are straight wax like straight paraffin, soy, beeswax, etc. For example, a container paraffin is formulated to work with containers so its a blend. To get straight paraffin to work as a container wax you need to use additives. I hope that clarifies the difference between straight waxes and blends.

[Sarah S]

19 hours ago, Quentin said:

Well like I was saying I've used lots of different waxes. I can narrow it down some on the containers since that's the area where I've spent less time. Mostly 444 Soy and now I'm giving GB 464 a shot. In my container candles, some of them tend to sweat out at the top. Too much fragrance maybe? But once again, I've used no additives in my containers yet. I've also had problems with container wax never really hardening completely and having a gummy, gooey, sticky consistency.

 

As for the pillars I've mostly used IGI 4625 Pillar blend but wanted something that was translucent.  I've tried CBL-41 Votive/Pillar blend, but it takes too much time to work with, what with all the topping off and back filling. I've got a some IGI 1343 A I'm going to try tomorrow for pillars. I have settled in at 7% Stearic acid and 1% Vybar in all my pillars. 

 

When I first started this last fall, before I came across this forum, I was using the junk from Michael's and Hobby Lobby and a "general purpose" wax I bought from Amazon. The people on the forum here clued me in and convinced me to look elsewhere.  Nearly every pillar I made with those had a blowout, so I want go back to that overpriced stuff. 

 

But let me just say again, I could count on two or three fingers the candles that have had an acceptable throw to them.

Q 

 

 

Your soy waxes need a minimum cure of two weeks to throw well. The 4625 and 141 are both blends, so what birdcharm, Candybee, and ncraiders were saying about the blends applies here, so I think you may be doing more harm than good by adding more stuff to them. I don't really know anything about the 1343.

11 hours ago, Pam W said:

Ya know, so many candle makers have experienced a negative throw from their creation when the real culprit is the room circulation.....If I set a tester in my bathroom, turn on the A/C with the return in the living room, I can walk down the hallway toward the bathroom and get a tremendous scent throw.  With my little house, the throw is dependent on what room I'm burning the tester and the air return.

Back to the subject, I quit using vybar.......period.

 

So much truth right there!

[Quentin]

19 hours ago, Pam W said:

Question:  depending on how your house is laid out, where are you testing your creations?  I ask this because I have found that it makes a big difference on the throw where I place my testers....like, does the A/C return suck up the scent; does the swamp cooler blow the scent out the open window,  etc, etc.

If I'm burning a candle in my bedroom with the swamp cooler running, I can't smell a darn thing in the room but if I got outside the window, I get a tremendous throw.......Being in a small 900 sqft cottage home, I have found that I need to pay attention to WHERE I burn my testers depending on the relative air flow....does that make sense?

Thanks Pam. I test them in every room of the house. Yes, your question about air flow does make sense. We don't have swamp coolers around this area. Strictly central AC/Heat. The return is in the hallway and located centrally somewhat.

[Quentin]

From this point forward, newly poured and cooled candles will be wrapped in tissue paper and plastic bags. They will be boxed, taped up and sealed with a sticker that says "Do not burn until (Date)". Thanks to all of you.

 

One other thing I thought I mentioned somewhere along the way. What are some possible reasons that much of my container wax ends up as a sticky, gooey mess and never seems to harden completely? As the candle burns, it sticks to the sides. As I said, this mostly happened using the 444 soy. I've used no additives. I haven't had time to see what the 464 soy will do.

Q

[ncraiders]

17 minutes ago, Quentin said:

From this point forward, newly poured and cooled candles will be wrapped in tissue paper and plastic bags. They will be boxed, taped up and sealed with a sticker that says "Do not burn until (Date)". Thanks to all of you.

Reading this part brought me to tears laughing after reading it.

[TallTayl]

2 hours ago, Quentin said:

From this point forward, newly poured and cooled candles will be wrapped in tissue paper and plastic bags. They will be boxed, taped up and sealed with a sticker that says "Do not burn until (Date)". Thanks to all of you.

 

One other thing I thought I mentioned somewhere along the way. What are some possible reasons that much of my container wax ends up as a sticky, gooey mess and never seems to harden completely? As the candle burns, it sticks to the sides. As I said, this mostly happened using the 444 soy. I've used no additives. I haven't had time to see what the 464 soy will do.

Q

Sounds like a temp issue. Above you mentioned you add the fragrance 5 degrees above pouring temp. That is much too low. THe temp of the wax needs to be high enough to dissolve the fragrance, the cool surrounding the fragrance molecules in between wax crystals. As wax is heated the crystals melt leaving molecules of wax that expand. The expanded wax surrounds the smaller molecules of fragrance. As the wax cools the molecules shrink and line up as they solidify (crystallize). The fragrance molecules get trapped tightly between the molecules of wax. The better the crystal matrix, the more stable the candle. If not mixed ell the fragrance can sink, pool, evaporate more easily, you name it. 

 

Th gumminess and softness could also be a variable with the additives you are using. 

 

Stearic can be good with soy, but may hinder throw since it raises melt points, changes pH, and gets between the soy crystals. Sometimes stearic causes cracks. It takes a lot of experimenting to know what your wax needs to perform better. 

 

Vybar is one one of those things that needs to be used e trembly sparingly, if at all. It is a polymer that can surround fragrance molecules tightly within the wax molecular structure, making it very difficult to throw. This is similar to micro wax. The particles are just so small, they really get between the other molecules and throw off the whole balance. 

 

One variable at a time i say. One. 

[Laura C]

On 5/27/2018 at 7:36 PM, Quentin said:

That brings up a couple of good thoughts. Generally, I add the fragrance about 5 degrees higher than the pour temperature, take it off the heat and stir until it drops to the pouring temp. Then pour, of course.

 

I've had a couple of fair hot throws. If I burn the candle in a small room and walk away for awhile, when I come back I catch the scent right away. But that's not common. Yes everyone, I know to never leave a burning candle unattended. 

 

As far as curing time... I'm not very patient. It's sort of like Christmas Eve when you just can't wait till the morning to open the presents. I can't really give an exact time I use for curing. Overnight would be the best way I could answer.  Won't the fragrance evaporate if they sit for too long?

 

Just want to mention something, I could be wrong, but isn't the Recommended Temperature to Add the Scent more important to get right rather than the Pour Temp? The wax and scent need to be at the right temps to bond thoroughly. I go by the Add Scent temp and usually after I stir for 2 minutes, off the heat source, I pour my candle. Usually at that point I'm pretty close or maybe a little cooler than what was recommended for the pour temp. I generally end up with great Cold and Hot Scent throw in a Coconut, Soy, Palm wax blend.