Candlescience

[candlescience]

Hey @Candybee. 

 

Yes, if items in your cart need to be shipped from the second warehouse to fulfill your order, you’ll be able to see the two shipments broken out in the ‘Delivery’ step when checking out.  If you do not want to proceed with the split shipment, simply return to the cart and remove the items that are designated to ship from the warehouse furthest from you. 

 

Unfortunately, if you are not logged in we have no way of knowing which warehouse location is the closest to you. But if you are logged in we can show if an item is out of stock at your primary warehouse before adding it to the cart.  In that case, you will see a message under the item stating where it will ship from. If you chose not to order from the second warehouse, you can sign up to be notified when it becomes available at the warehouse closest to you.  

 

You can also see if you order is subject to split shipping by using the shipping quote tool on the cart page.  Lastly, as Kraven noted the cart does not show the breakout of split shipments, but we’re hoping to add this in the near future.

[Candybee]

I don't know who is 'AAK'? Are they the ones that supply Golden Brands with vegetable wax? Aside from Ecosoya was Golden Brands the only soy wax that experienced fluctuations in wax?

[Candybee]

1 hour ago, candlescience said:

Hey @Candybee. 

 

Yes, if items in your cart need to be shipped from the second warehouse to fulfill your order, you’ll be able to see the two shipments broken out in the ‘Delivery’ step when checking out.  If you do not want to proceed with the split shipment, simply return to the cart and remove the items that are designated to ship from the warehouse furthest from you. 

 

Unfortunately, if you are not logged in we have no way of knowing which warehouse location is the closest to you. But if you are logged in we can show if an item is out of stock at your primary warehouse before adding it to the cart.  In that case, you will see a message under the item stating where it will ship from. If you chose not to order from the second warehouse, you can sign up to be notified when it becomes available at the warehouse closest to you.  

 

You can also see if you order is subject to split shipping by using the shipping quote tool on the cart page.  Lastly, as Kraven noted the cart does not show the breakout of split shipments, but we’re hoping to add this in the near future.

 

Thanks for the reply. Another good reason to log in to your account when shopping at CS.

[GoldieMN]

@candlescience FINALLY, a supplier who is helping us get answers to our questions about the changes we have experienced with soy over the past year.  Thank you!    I am so glad you joined this forum.

GoldieMN

 

[GoldieMN]

2 hours ago, Candybee said:

I don't know who is 'AAK'? Are they the ones that supply Golden Brands with vegetable wax? Aside from Ecosoya was Golden Brands the only soy wax that experienced fluctuations in wax?

Yes AAK bought out Golden Brands.

GoldieMN

[Candybee]

19 hours ago, candlescience said:

There are so many details relevant to the soy story it's tough to summarize them here. But we'll give it a try.

 

While the FDA ruling forced Ecosoya to make radical changes to its product line, AAK did not have to.  They have told us that none of the formulas have changed. We're hoping to get an official statement from them about this that we can share with our customers. But, that is not the whole story.

 

AAK runs two main production lines at its facility in the US. One of the hydrogenators went down this summer. That was the origin of the severe outage this fall.

It's a very long story, but when the line went down, they decided to make some upgrades which didn't go smoothly and extended the downtime.

 

During this period they were running their existing line around the clock, moving material through it as soon as humanly possible. That resulted in a production schedule that was much different than usual. While the product was in spec, there were variations between batches.

 

We all know that soy wax is a natural product. Therefore it varies according to the origin of the source oil, time of year, and a number of other factors. In the same way you can't buy two apples that look identical, no two batches of soy wax will be exactly the same.

 

The difference here is that the production method at AAK has been stable for a long time, but changed last fall. We believe them when they tell us that the formula is the same, but understand that the nature of natural products, plus the flux that their production facility was in, made for a less stable than usual product from batch to batch.

 

Things have stabilized now, and we're hoping that the resulting product will have less variance.

 

That could explain the performance in the soy waxes being so dramatic over the past year. It could also explain why those that  reported the changes to their wax supplier were given the response that the wax formulations have not changed. It just doesn't explain why the manufacturer's production changes were not shared at our level and I think that was a failure on their part to not do so.

 

This information has been very enlightening and you have been the first to share this so I wanted to thank you for that.

 

 

 

[Kerven]

That's news to me. It explains last year's inconsistencies. For taking the opportunity to discuss what happened, Candlescience gets extra points with me. I'm still hesitant to purchase AAK waxes, however, but that's not due to anything Candlescience has done. Maybe once the complaints about GW waxes die down I'll give it another chance.

 

I did not know that being logged in displayed that. The more you know...

 

Edit: BTW, love the tumbler boxes for the straight sided tumblers. The flat lids are always sold out!

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kerven

[Mik]

Personally I have found CS to be a great supplier on the west coast. I find their shipping fees and delivery to be top notch. No complaints at all. I have been 

going crazy over the 464 though. I used a soy blend to start, and tested soy waxes for almost 2 years to figure out where I wanted to go. I decided on 464. I tested for a year, and found the best results with this wax. Then I bought a pallet from CS in November. I have poured almost the whole pallet to launch 24 new styles at the winter shows. Today I found that half of my candles have turned into a frosted nightmare. Completely un-sellable. Just as my show orders are pouring in. I feel sick. After 2 years of testing every possible variation,  I busted the move on CS and 464. I have at least $30,000 invested in vessels, wax, and fragrance. And labor beyond.  It has not been easy. Bubbles ! 3 pours or more. I have added coconut wax, beeswax, changed temps, altered fragrance load. So many things. I can't believe it is this challenging. Still not sure who where I will order my next pallet of wax from.  I really want to go all natural soy.  But it us getting the best of me.  Why is there not a decent wax that we can all work with?

[Lighten Up]

10 hours ago, Mik said:

Personally I have found CS to be a great supplier on the west coast. I find their shipping fees and delivery to be top notch. No complaints at all. I have been 

going crazy over the 464 though. I used a soy blend to start, and tested soy waxes for almost 2 years to figure out where I wanted to go. I decided on 464. I tested for a year, and found the best results with this wax. Then I bought a pallet from CS in November. I have poured almost the whole pallet to launch 24 new styles at the winter shows. Today I found that half of my candles have turned into a frosted nightmare. Completely un-sellable. Just as my show orders are pouring in. I feel sick. After 2 years of testing every possible variation,  I busted the move on CS and 464. I have at least $30,000 invested in vessels, wax, and fragrance. And labor beyond.  It has not been easy. Bubbles ! 3 pours or more. I have added coconut wax, beeswax, changed temps, altered fragrance load. So many things. I can't believe it is this challenging. Still not sure who where I will order my next pallet of wax from.  I really want to go all natural soy.  But it us getting the best of me.  Why is there not a decent wax that we can all work with?

I feel your pain. I have been using 415 since 2007 with no notable changes until the 2017 product. The wax is soooo different- fussy and bubbly, and the wicking is all changed. But, I love it now, it's creamier and I'm getting a terrific throw. Would have liked to have started with it all those years ago. It did almost cost me my season(and my mental health), I had to scale back and focus on my fundraisers only(limited fragrances/one jar).  Had I not already bought my stock for the year, I may have quit. Thankfully, because of the lovely people on this board, I was able to be prepared. I spent a little time on the phone/email with the gentleman at the AAK wax lab, who was very helpful and I got a sample before I ordered my pallet.

 

As a side note: Most of my customers love the frosting. They think it's cool and I sell it as characteristic of 100% soy.

[Lighten Up]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:20 PM, candlescience said:

 

 

There are so many details relevant to the soy story it's tough to summarize them here. But we'll give it a try.

 

While the FDA ruling forced Ecosoya to make radical changes to its product line, AAK did not have to.  They have told us that none of the formulas have changed. We're hoping to get an official statement from them about this that we can share with our customers. But, that is not the whole story.

 

AAK runs two main production lines at its facility in the US. One of the hydrogenators went down this summer. That was the origin of the severe outage this fall.

It's a very long story, but when the line went down, they decided to make some upgrades which didn't go smoothly and extended the downtime.

 

During this period they were running their existing line around the clock, moving material through it as soon as humanly possible. That resulted in a production schedule that was much different than usual. While the product was in spec, there were variations between batches.

 

We all know that soy wax is a natural product. Therefore it varies according to the origin of the source oil, time of year, and a number of other factors. In the same way you can't buy two apples that look identical, no two batches of soy wax will be exactly the same.

 

The difference here is that the production method at AAK has been stable for a long time, but changed last fall. We believe them when they tell us that the formula is the same, but understand that the nature of natural products, plus the flux that their production facility was in, made for a less stable than usual product from batch to batch.

 

Things have stabilized now, and we're hoping that the resulting product will have less variance.

I'm not sure I believe that the formula hasn't changed - I have a fragrance that burns nicely with a cd10 in 2016 wax and drowns out a cd16 in the 2017 wax.

[Mik]

This is my first time on a forum. I have been toiling away for the last couple years figuring it out on my own. I really want to use an all natural wax. But I am starting to feel that I am hitting a brick wall. Today I poured a second top on my 464/beeswax combo with all my tricks. I really thought this was going to be it. And yet the bubbles came up yet again and I spent several hours topping and retopping. After all my labor, it is quite possible that in 6 weeks they will all look ruined with out of control frosting. 

I have spent the last three months pouring 150 candles each day, only to find them suddenly frosting over like crazy. They look awful. Beginning to wonder if soy is just too unstable.

I ordered some new waxes from swans today to test out. Coco- apricot but it does have paraffin. Why are the soy wax companies not taking this seriously? We are professional businesses that rely on their products as our base. It is unacceptable that they are selling us faulty product. I wish there was a natural wax out there that had nuance but not all the  problems we are experiencing. 

[TallTayl]

@Mik preach! The good news is most soy customers expect imperfection. 

 

Just opened my new lot of 444 and discovered it is 2-3 wick sizes different from my last lot. The cases were manufactured one month apart (11/17 and 12/17).

 

i am sick of the wild variations in soy wax from month to month. 

 

Coconut wax has skyrocketed in price making it out of reach for my main line of business.  

[moonshine]

On 1/28/2018 at 10:53 AM, Lighten Up said:

I feel your pain. I have been using 415 since 2007 with no notable changes until the 2017 product. The wax is soooo different- fussy and bubbly, and the wicking is all changed. But, I love it now, it's creamier and I'm getting a terrific throw. Would have liked to have started with it all those years ago. It did almost cost me my season(and my mental health), I had to scale back and focus on my fundraisers only(limited fragrances/one jar).  Had I not already bought my stock for the year, I may have quit. Thankfully, because of the lovely people on this board, I was able to be prepared. I spent a little time on the phone/email with the gentleman at the AAK wax lab, who was very helpful and I got a sample before I ordered my pallet.

 

As a side note: Most of my customers love the frosting. They think it's cool and I sell it as characteristic of 100% soy.

 

On 1/28/2018 at 11:03 AM, Lighten Up said:

I'm not sure I believe that the formula hasn't changed - I have a fragrance that burns nicely with a cd10 in 2016 wax and drowns out a cd16 in the 2017 wax.

I'm not understanding this at all...my lots of "new" 415 from 2017 are needing wicking down major to the point of serious loss of hot throw, it doesn't get hot enough to expel in the air and if I keep the bigger "normal" sized wicks I'm risking burning someone's house down if they light it and walk away 

 

your saying wicking up it drowns out 🤔

 

Bubbly- I haven't seen this either and creamy?  This is to bizarre and completely different from my results - the texture is the same for me and I would of never known anything was wrong if I hadn't made a bunch of testers with new scents 

 

when you talked to AAK what did they say about all this - I have emailed them and never got a response 

 

are you adding additives now or just straight up 415?  It must have varied even more from the 2 cases of my 2017 when I noticed it was behaving different and I never bought more to continue trying- I like many others bought every other wax on the market to test and I'm completely disgusted now hearing TT's 444 difference in a months difference in lot numbers from the same supplier....I just tested over a case of that wax and thought it was going to be workable 🤷‍♀️

I don't love the coconuts and I refuse to try quantum and C3....back down the rabbit hole I go or turning to paraffin to be done with all this 

[Lighten Up]

22 minutes ago, moonshine said:

 

I'm not understanding this at all...my lots of "new" 415 from 2017 are needing wicking down major to the point of serious loss of hot throw, it doesn't get hot enough to expel in the air and if I keep the bigger "normal" sized wicks I'm risking burning someone's house down if they light it and walk away 

 

your saying wicking up it drowns out 🤔

 

Bubbly- I haven't seen this either and creamy?  This is to bizarre and completely different from my results - the texture is the same for me and I would of never known anything was wrong if I hadn't made a bunch of testers with new scents 

 

when you talked to AAK what did they say about all this - I have emailed them and never got a response 

 

are you adding additives now or just straight up 415?  It must have varied even more from the 2 cases of my 2017 when I noticed it was behaving different and I never bought more to continue trying- I like many others bought every other wax on the market to test and I'm completely disgusted now hearing TT's 444 difference in a months difference in lot numbers from the same supplier....I just tested over a case of that wax and thought it was going to be workable 🤷‍♀️

I don't love the coconuts and I refuse to try quantum and C3....back down the rabbit hole I go or turning to paraffin to be done with all this 

Oh geez, where to start...

 

I only have the one fragrance(so far) that I have had to wick up(so extremely) drastically. I only threw that one out there in this post to make the point. All others so far are wicking same, or down- say from a cd10 to a cd7 or cd 8. My hot throw could seriously gag you on some fragrances.

 

The bubbles are showing up just about at pouring temp, I have to rewarm and stir until the bubbles are gone, then avoid over-stirring before I pour. I work with 4lb batches, so it's been manageable.

 

I also had quite a bit of condensation in some of my boxes, per AAK, I let them air out ahead of time and has not been a problem.

 

I use no additives, just the straight 415. Thankfully, buying by the pallet gives me some consistency. The sample I received and the pallet were dated for 8/17/17, which I believe is what they use in place of lot number? 

 

I will have to track down my notes from my contact with AAK.  When I was talking/corresponding with him, I was not yet into my testing(thus the sample), just wanted some info before getting the pallet- thanks to this board, I had the heads up on that!! I would love to talk to him again at length now that I'm well into it, but who has the time?

[Mik]

Gosh, this is all so sad. I knew I was not incompetent, just thought maybe I was crazy. I cannot believe all that I am seeing in these posts. Personally I have spent thousands of dollars testing different waxes and wasting materials. If my 3,000 poured candles are all ruined due to frosting I am really going to loose it. I will let you know how my next tests go. I did buy the c-3 as well. But I can't go lower than 10% fragrance load.  One of the reasons I tried adding beeswax. I have to say that I have achieved beautiful results finally with the 464 adding a tiny bit of beeswax. But this involves multiple pours and the end result is that they turn into Dorian Gray in 6 weeks. I am pretty certain the swans/ calwax apricot coco is going to be dreamy. I just really wanted to go all natural. But it is becoming clear to me based on your experiences and mine that it might not be possible. The quantum I also tried. SMOKEY!  I have to wonder what is considered normal  in terms of labor and results with soy. Was it always this bad?

[Lighten Up]

27 minutes ago, Mik said:

Gosh, this is all so sad. I knew I was not incompetent, just thought maybe I was crazy. I cannot believe all that I am seeing in these posts. Personally I have spent thousands of dollars testing different waxes and wasting materials. If my 3,000 poured candles are all ruined due to frosting I am really going to loose it. I will let you know how my next tests go. I did buy the c-3 as well. But I can't go lower than 10% fragrance load.  One of the reasons I tried adding beeswax. I have to say that I have achieved beautiful results finally with the 464 adding a tiny bit of beeswax. But this involves multiple pours and the end result is that they turn into Dorian Gray in 6 weeks. I am pretty certain the swans/ calwax apricot coco is going to be dreamy. I just really wanted to go all natural. But it is becoming clear to me based on your experiences and mine that it might not be possible. The quantum I also tried. SMOKEY!  I have to wonder what is considered normal  in terms of labor and results with soy. Was it always this bad?

I would be more concerned with how they burned than the frosting. Frosting is a well known characteristic of soy, and it can happen any time.

[Jcandleattic]

45 minutes ago, Mik said:

If my 3,000 poured candles are all ruined due to frosting I am really going to loose it.

 

10 minutes ago, Lighten Up said:

I would be more concerned with how they burned than the frosting. Frosting is a well known characteristic of soy, and it can happen any time.

 

What Lighten Up said, Mik. Seriously, be more concerned about other aspects of the candle. Frosting should really be the very very least of your concerns. They are like wet spots with paraffin container candles, it's just part of candlemaking. 

[GoldieMN]

This is what I was wondering about with the explanation that it wasn't the soy but the manufacturing process that caused the changes in soy:  Will we possibly be able to just go back to what we used before this mess?  I intend to test each new lot I get, but  I was hoping we would just go back to what we used for wicking before 2016.  Ugh!

GoldieMN

[pcbrook]

Last Saturday I placed an order with Candlescience and I received an email on Sunday that it was shipped!  What?!?  That never happens.  I understand it did not really get in transit until Monday but I thought that was pretty awesome for them to be working on a Sunday to get orders out.

 

 

[strugglebrother]

Thanks, @candlescience for clearing that up. Very informative reply.

 

I have 3 50lb boxes which I don't know if any of them are affected and are unstable. I've used up one 50lb box for a bunch of candles which I tested and noticed lesser hot throw from.

 

Shall I email you the numbers of the remaining 3 boxes I have to see if any of those are affected? I really don't want to make more candles and risk to use unstable wax. Thanks again.

[candlescience]

No problem, @strugglebrother!

 

As for your question, when the manufacturing equipment went down last fall, we did see a certain degree of variance from batch to batch. However, the finished wax was still within spec. All of the cases that we tested were within the acceptable range of deviation and yielded normal scent throw. If you have any additional questions or concerns, feel free to reach out to us at support@candlescience.com.