GW 444 Pour Temp?

[cornerfolds]

I'm wondering what temps everyone pours at with 444. I've seen suggestions anywhere from 150-90 degrees! Where do you pour? Do you adjust based on outside temp or humidity?

[birdcharm]

I believe the recommended pouring temperature is at about 125-145dF ... I pour it at about 140-150, a little less if I got busy with something else and it cooled down a bit more, stirring once again before pouring.  It seems that the tops were smoother at around 140-150 rather than 125.  For the suggestions you mentioned to pour at 190, I've never seen that in regard to soy wax.

 

[Trappeur]

I've never seen a pour temp that high either....maybe she meant to say from 90 to 150?

 

I would be worried pouring at a high temperature the possibility of the wick tab lifting from the glass bottom..I've often thought of that happening....

 

Trappeur

[strugglebrother]

444 is a tricky one... great cold and hot throw but always leaves sinkholes for me regardless what pour temp I ever use. Could be the container I'm using too.

 

I just pour and fix it later with a heat gun, never nailed a specific pour temp with 444 unfortunately.

[TallTayl]

By sink holes, do you mean air cavities? 444 used to be super easy. This last year complaints a plenty about the same thing. 

 

I dont see, to get them in my 8 oz tins when I pour on the cool side (cloudy, almost slush).  As @Trappeur noted, pouring hot risks popping the wick tabs and also melting the wax coating on the wick. That wax coating really helps keep it from slumping into the MP.

 

with larger containers that cool slower it is harder. I recently made fairly large  (1 lb of wax) and a wood wick in a ceramic jar. the entire area around the wick was air pocket on two. The tops looked great. The wood wick would not stay lit - when I looked I could see why. A knife slipped easily down both sides of the wick with wiggle room. I poured those a little hotter, but now will always poke and fill around undo that wick

[strugglebrother]

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

By sink holes, do you mean air cavities? 444 used to be super easy. This last year complaints a plenty about the same thing. 

 

I dont see, to get them in my 8 oz tins when I pour on the cool side (cloudy, almost slush).  As @Trappeur noted, pouring hot risks popping the wick tabs and also melting the wax coating on the wick. That wax coating really helps keep it from slumping into the MP.

 

with larger containers that cool slower it is harder. I recently made fairly large  (1 lb of wax) and a wood wick in a ceramic jar. the entire area around the wick was air pocket on two. The tops looked great. The wood wick would not stay lit - when I looked I could see why. A knife slipped easily down both sides of the wick with wiggle room. I poured those a little hotter, but now will always poke and fill around undo that wick

 

Yeah like this... I haven't been able to prevent this from happening ever with 444 in my jam jars. Different pour temps, heating up the jars etc... So I gave up and heatgun each of them which takes quite some time.

 

Pretty much like this: 

 

 

 

 

[TallTayl]

Yeah. I wonder what the additive is in 444 that makes it cool so strangely. 

 

That would happen in my C3 blends unless I poured in the super slushy stage. The wax contracted so hard outwardly that the wick wax got sucked away. I would have to excavate for the holes because tops would look would only find out if you lit and flared. 

[moonshine]

11 hours ago, strugglebrother said:

 

Yeah like this... I haven't been able to prevent this from happening ever with 444 in my jam jars. Different pour temps, heating up the jars etc... So I gave up and heatgun each of them which takes quite some time.

 

Pretty much like this: 

 

 

 

 

Even pouring to almost slush?

I haven't come across this yet in tins or Mason jars - I pour at 100-105 in warm containers just when it starts to cloud - now when I pour when it's cloudy I get a crystalized top- some tops are "wavy" and others are baby but smooth....this is finicky soy wax to pour - like TT stated I wonder what that additive is, I have found it's soy based additives but the only ones I know of are USA and I used to use it all the time with 415 and my tops were more consistent than 444

[strugglebrother]

2 hours ago, moonshine said:

Even pouring to almost slush?

I haven't come across this yet in tins or Mason jars - I pour at 100-105 in warm containers just when it starts to cloud - now when I pour when it's cloudy I get a crystalized top- some tops are "wavy" and others are baby but smooth....this is finicky soy wax to pour - like TT stated I wonder what that additive is, I have found it's soy based additives but the only ones I know of are USA and I used to use it all the time with 415 and my tops were more consistent than 444

 

Yeah, I tried to pour when it's slushy also.

 

Yes it's definitely better with 415 and 464 but 444 has the strongest cold throw for me so I'm sticking to it.

[TallTayl]

So far, with the latest 2 cases from candlewic, i am liking 444. I say so far, because the next lot may be different :-/ It is very different from BA and CS, all bought within the same time period.

[Kerven]

@TallTayl So your 444 from BA and CS was different from Candlewic's? I wonder if that's why I had issues with CS's 464 but not as much with Candlewic's. Maybe 464 hasn't had a recent change like I thought...

 

I don't know what additive is in 444, but the universal additive for soy is a monoglyceride, I believe.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Kerven

[TallTayl]

Same with moonshine.

 

Hard to tell the additive since i have only seen two "universal soy additives" offered retail. one from the candle makers store, one from american soy organics. they look very different.

[moonshine]

Yep

my BA 444 is different from candlewics

i am having to wick up the candlewics

 

hopefully the additive keeps it somehat consistent as I do like the wax so far 

 

I used USA in 415 and I do not think that is what is added in the 444- the 444 is rock hard ....but maybe it's just a higher percentage of USA 

the soy modifier from American soy seems to be a closer match of what's in the 444

 

 

[wcgxxx]

I just made 150 lbs worth of candles with this wax. And close to my last batch I found the perfect pouring temperature for me was 107 degrees. No sink holes. I started pouring at 135 degrees and nothing but sinkholes. I slowly worked my way down batch after batch. 

[TallTayl]

At 107 is it pretty thick? I have learned to pour with the pot in one hand and a heat gun in the other 😫

[kandlekrazy]

26 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

At 107 is it pretty thick? I have learned to pour with the pot in one hand and a heat gun in the other 😫

So we can be hairdressers now too!

[wcgxxx]

@TallTayl nope it’s right before it starts to slush

Edited January 30, 2018 by wcgxxx

[nursenancy]

Strange - I pour hot with 444 - I've been using it at least 5 years.  I heat to 180, add FO, dye, stir and pour - I always get smooth tops.

[TallTayl]

4 minutes ago, nursenancy said:

Strange - I pour hot with 444 - I've been using it at least 5 years.  I heat to 180, add FO, dye, stir and pour - I always get smooth tops.

At high temps like that I get smooth tops, but loads of cavities beneath that pretty surface. As the candles burn you can see the wax emptying into the holes, and bubbles burping up. Flares and tunneling are real problems with 444.

[olives]

15 hours ago, TallTayl said:

At high temps like that I get smooth tops, but loads of cavities beneath that pretty surface. As the candles burn you can see the wax emptying into the holes, and bubbles burping up. Flares and tunneling are real problems with 444.

 

@TallTayl, do you find that once you nail down the right pour temp for 444, that it's worth it to stick with it? Or do the flares/tunneling tend to be issues that pop up no matter what?

[TallTayl]

1 hour ago, olives said:

 

@TallTayl, do you find that once you nail down the right pour temp for 444, that it's worth it to stick with it? Or do the flares/tunneling tend to be issues that pop up no matter what?

It is too early to tell. My test cases and new cases (manufactured a month apart) are performs very differently. Pouring cool I could control the cavities in the old. I need to do more testing with  the new.

 

overall, it is better than 415 and 464 IMO. At least I can wick hot enough to get hot throw without having to add hardeners!

 

all soy can form cavities, I found. Certain additives can promote those cavities as the crystals form during cooling are irregular. 

[ambar]

So how exactly do sinkholes/air bubbles affect the candle performance? My tops are always smooth but as soon as I hit it with a heat gun, I start seeing small cavities & bubbles. When I test my candles, I never bother to hit with a heat gun & they never cause problems (assuming there are cavities in my tester candles that I cannot see beneath the pretty surface). What’s the big deal? Just aesthetic or is it going to affect the hot throw?

[TallTayl]

Cavities cause wick flares and an incorrect assumption of tunneling. 
 

if the cavity is near the top,  the top crust of the candle that “appears” pretty and fine will melt away exposing the hole(s).  Any wax melted dumps into the hole. the flame grows large and tall as it consumes the newly exposed length of wick. then it smothers out or leaves a tiny flame when the exposed wick burns itself out. If the flame is strong enough to stay lit it soon drowns with the roof of wax melting above. If the flame is weak it will just keep creating a tunnel upsetting customers. 

 

if the cavity is deeper, the same happens with a bit more gusto since there will be more melted wax in the pool draining quickly into the void. Some flares are quite impressively tall.

 

when new chandlers don’t understand what happened, the temptation is to keep wicking up having mistakenly believed the candle was under wicked. Since so many chandlers do not test fully, they trust this new much bigger wick size is the key to a good candle and end up with some pretty questionable candles out in the wild. 

[ambar]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:26 AM, TallTayl said:

Cavities cause wick flares and an incorrect assumption of tunneling. 
 

if the cavity is near the top,  the top crust of the candle that “appears” pretty and fine will melt away exposing the hole(s).  Any wax melted dumps into the hole. the flame grows large and tall as it consumes the newly exposed length of wick. then it smothers out or leaves a tiny flame when the exposed wick burns itself out. If the flame is strong enough to stay lit it soon drowns with the roof of wax melting above. If the flame is weak it will just keep creating a tunnel upsetting customers. 

 

if the cavity is deeper, the same happens with a bit more gusto since there will be more melted wax in the pool draining quickly into the void. Some flares are quite impressively tall.

 

when new chandlers don’t understand what happened, the temptation is to keep wicking up having mistakenly believed the candle was under wicked. Since so many chandlers do not test fully, they trust this new much bigger wick size is the key to a good candle and end up with some pretty questionable candles out in the wild. 

Thanks for this advice!! I’ll make sure to use a heat gun and poke around a few times before sending out a product.