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Wicking Coconut Wax


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8 hours ago, Trappeur said:

Thanks Clear Black for sharing that info.  There are tons of people here who I have seen asked that question many a time and will appreciate what you just said.

 

Trappeur:)

 

Im just sooo glad I dont have to spend 3 hours, twice a week, lumping 500 cases of candles into the stores anymore. Im pushing middle age and my back isnt as young as it used to be lol

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Ok, Im going to fill you all in on a little secret. Im a big rig truck driver when not making candles for fun. Thats how I pay my bills and how my daughter is going to college.  The single biggest cus

I was never able to wick that wax to my satisfaction.  Constant supply chain issues and the need to add to that wax to make it usable all turned me off.  I use my own blend now out of readily availabl

Will do, @Kerven I have seen it on a couple of supplier websites that gb 444 and 464 don't play well with beeswax.  I just tried a blend of coconut wax, gb444 and stearic at 5%.  I am waiting a couple

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On 10/17/2017 at 2:53 PM, Kerven said:

@ShineOn Preheating is too much of a hassle for me. I'd have to either heat jars one-by-one with a heat gun while my wax cools too much or try carrying a hot tray of jars from the kitchen to my work area... without shattering anything. Come to think of it, I'm not certain my oven goes below 170F. I guess I could cut it off and then put the glass in but that would slow my process down quite a bit.

 

Could it be possible that pouring at a lower temperature may have caused the coconut and stearic to cool too fast around the wick and crack internally?

 

Anyone else notice that Candlewic's coconut/apricot blend is sold out? I had to order coconut83 from California Candle Supply.

I think the hotter the pour the less chances of it developing wet spots and cracks. What temperature are you pouring at? 

 

How do you like Cal candle supply's wax vs. candlewics wax?

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@ShineOn I aim to pour around 185F, but I lose too much heat while dying and scenting and end up pouring closer to 175F.

 

I haven't tried Cal's wax yet. It arrived today. For shipping from California to Virginia, it was surprisingly fast and not as pricey as I thought it would be. Although, while unpackaging, I had one of those moments where I realized I messed up. Took the beeswax out of the box and it was a little soft and sticky... that's ok, maybe it's just the wax. Took the stearic acid out... not soft, not melted, as good as new - great! Started to take the coconut wax out only to realize that it was a little... misshapen. Pulled it out... yep, squishy. Needless to say, it melted a bit during shipping. Good thing I didn't order that in July or August. That's what I get for ordering a soft wax from the west coast.

 

I want to say that the coconut83 from Cal has the same texture and hardness as Candlewic's coconut/apricot blend, but since it's still warm and squishy, I can't say for sure. The firmer spots are very close. It does appear to be a bit more off-white in color than Candlewic's blend. I'm hoping it hardens up, because if I have to slice this giant slab, which has the consistency of undercooked fudge... I'm not going to be thrilled. Maybe if I melted it and poured it into soap molds for easy measuring?

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I just received a 3lb sample of coconut83 from CalSupply today.  I'm in NW Oregon and  so it arrived in fine condition. However, seeing that it is a softer wax, I'd imagine it would be a problem to ship from LA in the summer months.  The texture is firm enough to cut with a knife yet soft enough to use a spoon.  This wax feels greasy like... uh... coconut oil.   

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Even after it cooled, it was noticably softer than Candlewic's coconut/apricot. Looks like I'll need to test the coconut83 to see if it works at the same ratios I've been using. Might need to add a blend of stearic and beeswax. It's also noticably darker than Candlewic's, which is pure white like shortening.

 

Is it me or does coconut83 have an odd odor? It almost smells rancid or similar to old fryer oil... maybe even fried takeout eggrolls. I'm a little concerned that the scent may carry over to the finished candle.

 

If I have the time, I'll whip up a few testers tomorrow. 50/50 (coconut, soy) and maybe a blend including stearic and beeswax. I'm thinking the beeswax will do better in a high coconut blend but I'm curious to see how a higher percentage (~10-15%) of stearic will do in the soy to offset the soy issues. Wicks will be ECO 4 and ECO 6. Maybe ECO 8, depending on how much beeswax and/or stearic are in the second blend. Not sure about FO's.

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For anyone interested, why not test with pure Coconut oil instead? Its a matter of choice sure, but do you really know the exact blend %'s of what is in Coconut 83 wax? The description reads, "Our Coconut 83 wax is an all natural container blend. This wax is predominately coconut blended with vegetable and soy waxes." But at what % are those additives at? And what exactly are they? How can you possibly test not knowing exactly what all ingredients are and how much? Just a thought..and just my 2 cents worth on this topic thats all.

 

I asked those questions to myself and decided to go the route of just Coconut 92 oil. I needed to think of the end game of buying in bulk as well. The lowest I see Co83 selling for is ~$1.70/lb. I can get Co92 for lower than ~$1.40/lb. Thats a decent savings when buying 500+lbs, plus the added benefit of knowing its Coconut oil with no vegetable or soy based additives. This way my tests are more on point and I can know what the final formula consists of.

 

Anyways, enough rambling lol. I'm sure you folks are doing great in your tests, it just made me wonder why I am the only one it seems testing straight Coconut oil. Maybe I shouldnt be? I dunno..I need my coffee

 

Link to BA's Co92 for anyone wanting a look: https://www.bulkapothecary.com/coconut-oil-92-degree/

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@Kerven I smelled really old tallow when first opening the bag. I know it is supposed to be all "botanical" but it sure smelled like cow.

 

@Clear Black I''m in the middle of testing other "botanical" waxes, like candelila, carnauba, ozokerite, etc. with 415 soy. Planning to move on to coconut next. The challenge is ensuring the blend works well over the long term. You know how much I LOVE analysis by doing.

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Just now, TallTayl said:

@Kerven I smelled really old tallow when first opening the bag. I know it is supposed to be all "botanical" but it sure smelled like cow.

 

@Clear Black I''m in the middle of testing other "botanical" waxes, like candelila, carnauba, ozokerite, etc. with 415 soy. Planning to move on to coconut next. The challenge is ensuring the blend works well over the long term. You know how much I LOVE analysis by doing.

 

Lol TT. Sometimes I think you like testing more than actually making candles and selling. Something tells me we all should chip in and get you a white lab coat and nerdy black glasses :P

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Just now, Clear Black said:

 

Lol TT. Sometimes I think you like testing more than actually making candles and selling. Something tells me we all should chip in and get you a white lab coat and nerdy black glasses :P

You say that as if I don't already have a lab coat and nerdy lab glasses 🤓

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Just now, TallTayl said:

@Kerven wanted to add, beeswax tends to leave big, giant cracks with just coconut. The fatty acids need something to plasticize the blend to prevent cleaving between the crystals as they form. 

 

Can somebody ELI5 (explain like i'm 5) what she just said? O.o 

 

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7 minutes ago, Clear Black said:

 

Can somebody ELI5 (explain like i'm 5) what she just said? O.o 

 

Coconut oil with beeswax needs something bendy or squishy so it does not crack as it cools. Beeswax shrinks from all directions as it cools. alone can stay solid as it cools since the molecules are able to glue themselves together. Coconut oil gets between the beeswax as it shrinks during cooling, and lets the wax pull and tear apart as it cools creating a cleave through the whole candle. 

 

A plasticizer helps keep a blend bendy so it does not break or tear apart. Think like shortbread. If the dough is too "short" it breaks apart into tiny brittle pieces. Adding more shortening or butter helps keep the dough together. 

 

Some paraffins work well with beeswax to allow the blend to gently shrink without tearing. The Catholic Church uses paraffin in their beeswax, which works quite well.

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12 hours ago, Kerven said:

Even after it cooled, it was noticably softer than Candlewic's coconut/apricot. Looks like I'll need to test the coconut83 to see if it works at the same ratios I've been using. Might need to add a blend of stearic and beeswax. It's also noticably darker than Candlewic's, which is pure white like shortening.

 

Is it me or does coconut83 have an odd odor? It almost smells rancid or similar to old fryer oil... maybe even fried takeout eggrolls. I'm a little concerned that the scent may carry over to the finished candle.

 

If I have the time, I'll whip up a few testers tomorrow. 50/50 (coconut, soy) and maybe a blend including stearic and beeswax. I'm thinking the beeswax will do better in a high coconut blend but I'm curious to see how a higher percentage (~10-15%) of stearic will do in the soy to offset the soy issues. Wicks will be ECO 4 and ECO 6. Maybe ECO 8, depending on how much beeswax and/or stearic are in the second blend. Not sure about FO's.

I have to agree their wax is very soft and has an odd scent that I can't really pick up on what it is, but after pouring the FO it goes away. Does make me wonder what they're putting in it... I haven't tried using stearic with this wax maybe that will help with all the tunneling I was experiencing no matter how high I wixed. I think Coconut wax is definitely more tricky to test than soy. 

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Interesting tidbit I ran across while looking at the coconut83 MSDS at Accu-Blend: it mentions paraffin. It also references CFR title 21 section 172.886, which deals with the use of petroleum wax in foods. I think it's safe to assume that it may contain a bit of paraffin or petrolatum. That's alright for me, Candlewic's did too.

 

Straight coconut oil sounds like something to look into. I can only think of a few things that could harden it and raise the melt point. None of them are particularly cost efficient.

 

This coconut83 stinks. I don't like it.

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49 minutes ago, Clear Black said:

For anyone interested, why not test with pure Coconut oil instead? Its a matter of choice sure, but do you really know the exact blend %'s of what is in Coconut 83 wax? The description reads, "Our Coconut 83 wax is an all natural container blend. This wax is predominately coconut blended with vegetable and soy waxes." But at what % are those additives at? And what exactly are they? How can you possibly test not knowing exactly what all ingredients are and how much? Just a thought..and just my 2 cents worth on this topic thats all.

 

I asked those questions to myself and decided to go the route of just Coconut 92 oil. I needed to think of the end game of buying in bulk as well. The lowest I see Co83 selling for is ~$1.70/lb. I can get Co92 for lower than ~$1.40/lb. Thats a decent savings when buying 500+lbs, plus the added benefit of knowing its Coconut oil with no vegetable or soy based additives. This way my tests are more on point and I can know what the final formula consists of.

 

Anyways, enough rambling lol. I'm sure you folks are doing great in your tests, it just made me wonder why I am the only one it seems testing straight Coconut oil. Maybe I shouldnt be? I dunno..I need my coffee

 

Link to BA's Co92 for anyone wanting a look: https://www.bulkapothecary.com/coconut-oil-92-degree/

Interesting, I haven't thought of that. How are your tests coming out and what percentage of soy to coconut oil are you using? 

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3 minutes ago, Kerven said:

Interesting tidbit I ran across while looking at the coconut83 MSDS at Accu-Blend: it mentions paraffin. It also references CFR title 21 section 172.886, which deals with the use of petroleum wax in foods. I think it's safe to assume that it may contain a bit of paraffin or petrolatum. That's alright for me, Candlewic's did too.

 

Straight coconut oil sounds like something to look into. I can only think of a few things that could harden it and raise the melt point. None of them are particularly cost efficient.

 

This coconut83 stinks. I don't like it.

Interesting that it contains paraffin, but the resellers don't, claiming it is all botanical. The only retail easily available hydrogenated coconut oil is coconut 92 (melt point of 92*F). "Normal" coconut oil melts at 76*F. 

 

Moonshine and I were pondering which soy they could have added to raise a melt point of 92 to their claimed 120 without it being primarily soy, with that soy feel. High melt point paraffin would explain the look and feel of those coconut waxes as they melt and cool. I knew I recognized it! Feels a LOT like petrolatum. But I fell for the advertising believing them to be truthful. I'll look into that source you found @Kerven. Good sleuthing. 

 

Things you may may want to try in coconut oil and coconut "wax" to harden with a low price point per payout include others I noted in a post above. All are botanical waxes and can be labeled as vegan for those who need a vegan product:

candelila

ozokerite

carnauba

all should work to gel that coconut oil/wax making it more durable in hot weather with very low usage rates. 

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13 minutes ago, Kerven said:

Interesting tidbit I ran across while looking at the coconut83 MSDS at Accu-Blend: it mentions paraffin. It also references CFR title 21 section 172.886, which deals with the use of petroleum wax in foods. I think it's safe to assume that it may contain a bit of paraffin or petrolatum. That's alright for me, Candlewic's did too.

 

Straight coconut oil sounds like something to look into. I can only think of a few things that could harden it and raise the melt point. None of them are particularly cost efficient.

 

This coconut83 stinks. I don't like it.

 

13 minutes ago, ShineOn said:

Interesting, I haven't thought of that. How are your tests coming out and what percentage of soy to coconut oil are you using? 

 

 

I test with only 444 as that is the wax I use regularly so take this as it applies to your waxes how you choose. With that said...

 

Using a ratio of 444:Co92 I have tested 50:50, 60:40, 70:30 and 40:60 respectively.  The 50:50 and 40:60 were way too soft. Just too much Co92. Here in coastal Maine it was a VERY hot day yesterday at 60*f (yes, that is hot for us folk) I placed a tin of 50:50 and 40:60 outside on my truck hood to expose it to some hotter, direct heat. The Co92 within 30 minutes was "seeping" out of the wax which indicated it was going to be way to soft to ship in summer climates. Now mind you these tests are less than 2 days old. The 60:40 ratio was where things started to firm up a bit. More soy obviously. So I looked at the 60:40 and the 70:30 side by side and thats when I noticed something interesting. All along in the ratios up til the 70:30 the tops of the wax, even after a few days cure, were still "greasy" to the touch. I contributed this to the Co92 being a low melt point (92*, hence the name Co92). But once I looked and touched the 70:30 it was no longer this way. It was much, much dryer on top and felt like a normal 444 top in the sense of feel. Regardless of ratio the tops are smooth as glass at a hot pour of 160*-170*. I really wasnt paying attention to when I poured because it really didnt matter tbh. I poured a few at 160, 165 and some at 170 and all the tops were glass like. Adhesion to wicks were perfect, and no seperation from the 8oz tins as of yet.

 

These tests were strictly to test wax consistency in the above blend ratios and nothing else. I stuck a wick in there only to see how the blended wax formed around it while cooling. This years batch of 444 has given me new headaches of wax seperation from the wick and is a leading factor for me to finally rid of pure soy and go the blend route. I like 444, its easy to work with in flake form, its costs effective and I am familiar with it. This Co92 however seems to have cured a lot of the cosmetic flaws of the soy. I just hope it will help a teeny bit with HT seeing as that is lacking with soy lately as well.

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They're sneaky when they don't want you to know there is paraffin and the like in their waxes.

 

Candelila and carnauba are on my list. Fatty alcohols and rice bran, as well, although, those are costly. I was under the impression that ozokerite was a byproduct of petroleum.

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6 minutes ago, Kerven said:

They're sneaky when they don't want you to know there is paraffin and the like in their waxes.

 

Candelila and carnauba are on my list. Fatty alcohols and rice bran, as well, although, those are costly. I was under the impression that ozokerite was a byproduct of petroleum.

Ozokerite is not necessarily from oil distillation. If concerned with keeping "natural" or vegan, it's probably not the best choice. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozokerite

 

https://tkbtrading.com/products/ozokerite-wax

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6 hours ago, Clear Black said:

 

 

 

Using a ratio of 444:Co92 I have tested 50:50, 60:40, 70:30 and 40:60 respectively.  The 50:50 and 40:60 were way too soft. Just too much Co92. Here in coastal Maine it was a VERY hot day yesterday at 60*f (yes, that is hot for us folk) I placed a tin of 50:50 and 40:60 outside on my truck hood to expose it to some hotter, direct heat. The Co92 within 30 minutes was "seeping" out of the wax which indicated it was going to be way to soft to ship in summer climates. Now mind you these tests are less than 2 days old. The 60:40 ratio was where things started to firm up a bit. More soy obviously. So I looked at the 60:40 and the 70:30 side by side and thats when I noticed something interesting. All along in the ratios up til the 70:30 the tops of the wax, even after a few days cure, were still "greasy" to the touch. I contributed this to the Co92 being a low melt point (92*, hence the name Co92). But once I looked and touched the 70:30 it was no longer this way. It was much, much dryer on top and felt like a normal 444 top in the sense of feel. Regardless of ratio the tops are smooth as glass at a hot pour of 160*-170*. I really wasnt paying attention to when I poured because it really didnt matter tbh. I poured a few at 160, 165 and some at 170 and all the tops were glass like. Adhesion to wicks were perfect, and no seperation from the 8oz tins as of yet.

 

These tests were strictly to test wax consistency in the above blend ratios and nothing else. I stuck a wick in there only to see how the blended wax formed around it while cooling. This years batch of 444 has given me new headaches of wax seperation from the wick and is a leading factor for me to finally rid of pure soy and go the blend route. I like 444, its easy to work with in flake form, its costs effective and I am familiar with it. This Co92 however seems to have cured a lot of the cosmetic flaws of the soy. I just hope it will help a teeny bit with HT seeing as that is lacking with soy lately as well.

 

@Clear Black Thank you for sharing your experience! I think you might be able to get away with going even lower on the co 92. I am liking my coconut wax/gb 444 blend but I think I’m going to try a test batch of co 92/gb 444.  I’ve done some blends with co 92 and beeswax but can’t deal with all of the cracking.

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I have had amazing luck using Cotton Core wicks. They are a match made in heaven. Burns amazing. You need a wick that won’t burn too hot that’s why cotton core works fantastic. Also I know it’s not recommended and something that has to be done. But let the candles made with this wax cure for a few days. Scent throw will knock your socks off. If you burn immediately it won’t be as good as it can be. Hope this helps. 

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On 10/21/2017 at 11:49 AM, TallTayl said:

Coconut oil with beeswax needs something bendy or squishy so it does not crack as it cools. Beeswax shrinks from all directions as it cools. alone can stay solid as it cools since the molecules are able to glue themselves together. Coconut oil gets between the beeswax as it shrinks during cooling, and lets the wax pull and tear apart as it cools creating a cleave through the whole candle. 

 

A plasticizer helps keep a blend bendy so it does not break or tear apart. Think like shortbread. If the dough is too "short" it breaks apart into tiny brittle pieces. Adding more shortening or butter helps keep the dough together. 

 

Some paraffins work well with beeswax to allow the blend to gently shrink without tearing. The Catholic Church uses paraffin in their beeswax, which works quite well.

Seriously, how in the heck do you know all of this stuff ? The Catholic church uses paraffin in their beeswax ???? lol ! @Clear Black we really do need to buy TT a lab coat 

and black nerdy glass - you had a great idea with that one :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi everyone,

 

I have been working on this wax for a long time. I have added 20-25 % sunflower wax which achieved the best result for viscosity. So now i have a perfect wax does not crack or pull away from the wick.But Wicking is a huge issue. I have used small wicks like ECO 2,4 , Stabilo 10 and some paper core wicks. (The container is a tumbler glass with 7cm diameter on the top and it does not narrow down towards bottom) 

 

The first and second burns are perfect flame no issues.When it gets deeper down the glass, flame starts dancing. Experienced candle makers please tell me, is this normal? I have bought some natural candles and their behaviour is almost the same. The flame does not get bigger or doesn't sooth but dances. Is it acceptable to sell this sort of candle or is it the normal behaviour of a natural candle?

 

I m looking forward to hearing from you.

Sinem

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