Elysian Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Hi, I am rather desperate for some help and insights here. Attached 2 pictures of white patches and lumps within my tealight candles (both polycarb and alum containers) and tarts, that appear within 12 to 72 hours where I have tried the following tests but to no avail. I can't figure out what the root of the problem is and so it's getting really hard to pinpoint possible solution tests that I can apply. Would really love to hear from anyone with some advice to give. I am using straight fully refined paraffin wax. Thank you! 1) Scent added temperature ranging from 82 to 87 Celsius 2) Pouring temperature from 77 to 87 Celsius 3) Adding a tiny bit of vybar to 1 tsp/pound 4) Scent % ranging from 6% - 9% 5) Cooling on racks vs solid wood surface vs on silver foil 6) Cooling in different rooms Edited July 11, 2017 by Elysian add more information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 What kind of wax are you using? Looks like a straight pillar paraffin (Not a blend) Most pillar paraffin's do have that mottling affect, but can be countered by using stearic, but you need to be careful when adding additives, because that can have an effect on scent throw. Most melts are made with a blended paraffin, or a harder container type of paraffin wax (that is if you prefer paraffin - there are also a lot of soy and/or vegetable waxes that people also use for melts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debratant Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I agree, this looks like a straight paraffin wax which will mottle like you are seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 If you poke a pin into the light patch is it an air pocket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 It looks like fingernailing and there is no direct cause just suggestions on what to try. Fingernailing is trapped air that forms. It isn't going to explode, but if you listen to it carefully you can hear a hissing sound when it opens. Some things you could try would probably center around cooling slower, moving the candles less, poking relief holes. Like to tell you it was mottling, but it's not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grama Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Years ago when I had fingernailing and snowflaking think it was called using 4625 I searched and finally found on Cierra Web Site where they said to add 3 TBS stearic and 1 tsp vybar 103 per lb. I called them and asked where this info came from and they said from IGI. I started doing this and still do and have never had the problem again. Hope this helps. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted July 16, 2017 Author Share Posted July 16, 2017 (edited) Thank you very much for replying, everyone! I was so excited that I just did a batch adding stearic 10% and vybar 1% (thanks Grama!)...but I used Vybar 260 as that's what I have on hand... waiting to see how the batch turns out, giving it 3 days as that's when any problems that exist will all surface, in my limited candle making experience . And yes, I am indeed using straight paraffin wax, to which I had added Vybar 260. I did read up everything I could find, and yes my problem doesn't seem to be mottling which was why I was pretty much going crazy To answer TallTayl: when I poke the white patches, they are actually sort of hard and grainy...I don't think they are air pockets? And I have tried slower cooling, and spacing every candle several inches apart...well I am really keeping my fingers crossed and I will let you know if this last batch works out. Thanks so much again! Edited July 16, 2017 by Elysian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 On 7/14/2017 at 1:42 AM, grama said: Years ago when I had fingernailing and snowflaking think it was called using 4625 I searched and finally found on Cierra Web Site where they said to add 3 TBS stearic and 1 tsp vybar 103 per lb. I called them and asked where this info came from and they said from IGI. I started doing this and still do and have never had the problem again. Hope this helps. Hi Grama, the formula you gave me is awesome. It totally worked to eliminate the white patches and lumps . I do still need some advice, if you or anyone else would be so kind as to lend some of your experience and knowledge here: 1) I seem to be getting a poorer cold scent throw from including the stearic acid vs previously. My research does not seem to uncover any indication that stearic acid impedes scent throw. My candles are not ready for a burn test so I can't really say how the hot throw will be. 2) 3 TBS: is this 1.5oz or 1oz? I have been trying to figure that out for the longest time. Some sites indicate 1oz (~5% to 1 pound wax) and others 1.5oz (~10% to 1 pound wax). Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grama Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 (edited) Just replied Elysian. Be sure you are using 103 vybar! Edited August 1, 2017 by grama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) I just tried the 3TBS Stearic with 1 TSP Vybar 103 to a pound of wax, and getting weird looking wax like in the pictures. The 2nd image is 1 tsp Vybar 103, and the 1st image is what I did a later test with using 1/2 tsp Vybar 103 - which looks a little better. I haven't changed anything else. I haven't actually seen anything like this before - beehive looking - can anyone help tell me what this can possibly be caused by? The vybar 103? Edited August 16, 2017 by Elysian correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Was this container wax already a blend? It looks like it has too much Vybar in it, and if it's a manufacture's blend, it already has vybar in it, so the vybar you added may not be needed. I get that "alien brain" look too, when I get heavy handed with the vybar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdcharm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 On 7/13/2017 at 0:42 PM, grama said: Years ago when I had fingernailing and snowflaking think it was called using 4625 I searched and finally found on Cierra Web Site where they said to add 3 TBS stearic and 1 tsp vybar 103 per lb. I called them and asked where this info came from and they said from IGI. I started doing this and still do and have never had the problem again. Hope this helps. The notes I have on this say to use 1/4-1/2 teaspoon per pound of vybar ... so, with the example in this thread, I think 1 t. per lb. is too much vybar. Also from my notes ... Vybar-103 "is intended for waxes with a melt point above 130dF. and Vybar-260 for below 130dF." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Jcandleattic said: Was this container wax already a blend? It looks like it has too much Vybar in it, and if it's a manufacture's blend, it already has vybar in it, so the vybar you added may not be needed. I get that "alien brain" look too, when I get heavy handed with the vybar. No, this is not a blend. It's straight paraffin - I had the fingernailing problem before with just adding vybar 260, approx 1 tsp then. When I added 3 tbp stearic with 1 tsp vybar 260, I seemed to have a problem with both cold and hot scent throw. Changed the vybar to 103 today and got the "alien brain" ? 1/2 tsp seems to help a little but not enough. Let's see if 1/4 tsp changes anything. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 1 hour ago, birdcharm said: The notes I have on this say to use 1/4-1/2 teaspoon per pound of vybar ... so, with the example in this thread, I think 1 t. per lb. is too much vybar. Also from my notes ... Vybar-103 "is intended for waxes with a melt point above 130dF. and Vybar-260 for below 130dF." I, too, have been given to understand 1/4 to 1/2 tsp vybar. However, was testing the formula with 1 tsp vybar to address the white lump issue. Well, think am back to v260 tomorrow for another test batch. ? ? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcandleattic Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 30 minutes ago, Elysian said: No, this is not a blend. It's straight paraffin - I had the fingernailing problem before with just adding vybar 260, approx 1 tsp then. When I added 3 tbp stearic with 1 tsp vybar 260, I seemed to have a problem with both cold and hot scent throw. Changed the vybar to 103 today and got the "alien brain" ? 1/2 tsp seems to help a little but not enough. Let's see if 1/4 tsp changes anything. Thank you! Vybar can bind with your scent and hinder scent throw, so keep that in mind as well. The more you use, the less your throw will be. If you are using stearic, you may not even need vybar. Have you tested not using vybar at all and only using stearic? I would try that before changing to a different vybar or using vybar at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 21 minutes ago, Jcandleattic said: Vybar can bind with your scent and hinder scent throw, so keep that in mind as well. The more you use, the less your throw will be. If you are using stearic, you may not even need vybar. Have you tested not using vybar at all and only using stearic? I would try that before changing to a different vybar or using vybar at all. Hmmm...no I haven't. Ok, adding that to my list of tests Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdcharm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 What is the melt point of your wax? That will tell you which Vybar product to use. If you use vybar, you may not require the stearic ... I think that may be the way that goes, but it's probably dependent on the wax used. Anyway, too much vybar overly binds the wax to the oil and that may be what those clumps were. A very small amount is supposed to do the trick in helping the fragrance throw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 You just don't need much vybar if any at all. See what the 1/4 tsp does, but I would back that down to 1/8 or a few grains if you honestly feel you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grama Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 @birdcharm This is what IGI said to do and have been doing this for years and my pillars have been fine, in fact I sell more pillars that I do containers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flicker Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 On 7/16/2017 at 10:44 AM, Elysian said: I used Vybar 260 as that's what I have on hand... What is the melt point of your wax? I think you may be having this issue because your melt point is higher. Vybar 260 is good for waxes with a melt point up to about 130* F. Vybar 103 for melt points above that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdcharm Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, grama said: @birdcharm This is what IGI said to do and have been doing this for years and my pillars have been fine, in fact I sell more pillars that I do containers. So much of this stuff is variable, I guess that's why we all end up experimenting with each new thing we do. It must be that for your wax, the amount of vybar you're using is working well. One day, I'd love to focus on pillar candles. I did try to see if I could find out a little more information, however, because I need to order some 260. Here's one thing I found, and I see that each one has a different usage recommendation, which I haven't noticed on supplier websites. ~~~ Our VYBAR™ 103 polymer is used typically in paraffin-wax candles with melt points greater than or equal to 136 deg. F [58 deg. C]. This polymer is a common component of columns, pillars, tapers, free-standing, decorative, and votive candles. Addition rates range from 0.25 wt. percent to 1.0 wt. percent in these applications. Our VYBAR 260 polymer is used typically in paraffin-wax candles with melt points less than 136 deg. F [58 deg C]. This polymer is a common component of container, tart, and votive candles. Recommended addition rates for this polymer range from 0.25 wt. percent for candle formulations requiring no fragrance up to 2.0 wt. percent for high fragrance-load candle formulations. source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elysian Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 The paraffin I have is 138°F (59°C). Indeed V103 as recommended by Grama is right. Thanks everyone for dropping in with your advice - I may certainly have been too heavy handed with the amount though in trying to address the initial white lump issue. It's back to the drawing board again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.