What Hot Throw? try Again

[Lambosi]

So, I started making wax. Not candles, tarts. 

 

Here's how I started. 

 

First experiment was 464 soy from NG with additive. All fragrance oils I've used so far for EVERYTHING Ive made is Natures Garden or Just Scent.

 

Heated up the soy 464 to 185. added the FO ad 180 or 175 for most, or lower if the flashpoint was lower. 12% to everything since over read you want to add about 1.5 to 2 ounces per pound, which ends up being about 12 percent. 

I try melting it a week later after it cures. It takes about 8 ounces of it, placed in the 5 burners I have to even FAINTLY smell it. You have to stand directly over the warmers to smell it.

So like everyone else, I researched. 

Then I found NG pillar of bliss. that like you all know has paraffin and the soy mixed. 

 

Heated the paraffin up to 185, and then also added the FO at 185.
Heated up the paraffin to 185, and then let the temp drop to 175, before adding FO.

I made a batch with 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12% FO. all heating up to 185 and adding FO at 175.

THEN I made a batch with 50% of the 464 NG Soy with 50% of the NG Pillar of bliss.
Once again, made 5 batches with 8,9,10,11, and 12 percent, heating to 185, and adding FO at 170.

no good

no good 

no good 

NO GOOD.

Next wax, Just Scent Pillar of votive.

 

Heated to 185 and added oils at 175. just made a 8% 10% and 12% currently curing, but I've been smelling the 3 and not having a good feeling.

 

 

Final test. 

Back to the NG Pillar of Bliss by itself, but heating up to 195, and now adding the FO at 185 (like it says)

I did the 6.25% (which is basically the 1 ounce to 1 pound ratio on a much smaller scale) and then 8% 10% and 12%

 

currently curing, but not having the best feeling.
 

heres been my melting process, that IDK is approved by the wax forum lords of this world, and may be my problem.

If Ive been making a larger scale wax, I use a pouring pot, and let it sit in a pot of water on medium heat on the stove until it reaches temp.
once it does I take it off the heat, and start letting it cool and add my FO once it reaches certain flash points, and pour after stirring for 2 minutes of adding the oil. no matter the temp.

If its a smaller scale of wax (which it usually is) I put the wax in a glass measuring cup, and put it into the pot of hot water and baby sit it till it reaches temp, It usually climbs to 185 fairly quick ( about 5 min or less) but if I'm heating it up to 195 it usually takes over 10 minutes and sits around 190-193 forever before reaching 195, and i think that could be the downfalls of the paraffin experiment. If Im making the small quantities in the pouring pot, it reaches 195 real quick, but then as soon as i take it off the heat, the temp rapidly starts dropping, and by the time it starts reaching 185 i literally have a 2 second window to put in my fragrance, if i leave it off the heat the wax will literally drop from 195 to 150 in the matter of 45 seconds; its insane. I can't even stir it for my 2 to 3 minutes. I try to stir it with the pot halfway in the water for a couple minutes, and then turn around and pour it. even from the 5 second of removing from heat to pouring in molds, it already starts to harden around the top of the pouring pot, and I think that maybe that whole process is hopeless.

 

 

Masters, veterans. Women. My female Lords of this. I am a 25 year old dude that wants to impress the lady, and potentially others with this simple, yet amazing creation that one calls wax tarts. Please, If you have read this much, I thank you. I virtually kiss your eye balls for reading my pain. But someone please end this pain. Please end my long internet forum readings. My crazy ass formulas and methods. My typical 25 year old male mind of overthinking something so simple. Give me the answer. give me the gold. give me your SECRET. If you dont want to post your secret formula on a website, thats cool. Could ya message it to me? could you give me something else to try that could give me some hope? some shining light at the end of the infinite dark tunnel? I Love you all.

[Nickie]

Overall, I would say you are adding your fragrance oils too low. The flash point has nothing to do with tarts really. A flash point is the tempature at which a fragrance oil BECOMES combustible IF exposed to an open flame. It's a moot when talking tarts, as there the oils or wax should never be exposed to an open flame. 

 

The wax has to be hot enough to bind with the oils so I would try adding the oil at no less than 180-185. Stir for a bit then pour. I don't find at 2 mins is required for stirring. If this still doesn't work, you need to look at your oils. Than your waxes. But I think this will fix it. 

[TallTayl]

Nickie is exactly right about the flash point. It is irrelevant as to when it is added to the wax. Just keep the really low flash point oils away from heat and flame. One of my best throwers has a flash point near 100*F. I treat it exactly as all other fragrances in the wax with no noticeable reduction in throw in candles or melts.

 

Keep your small amounts of wax in the hot water bath until you can see it is clear with the fragrance added. Stir, stir, stir and then remove, stir a bit more, and pour at whatever the recommended temp for the wax choice is. Wax molecules expand when warm. The fragrance molecules disperse between the warm wax molecules. As the wax cools the large, warm molecules shrink trapping the fragrance molecules in between, like in a matrix. 

 

to test your fragrance, put a spoonful of plain old salt in the warmer. Add a few drops of your fragrance. 3-5 should be plenty for an initial test.  Plug it in/ light it up (depending on the type of warmer) and evaluate the throw. Sometimes the problem is the fragrance itself. 

 

Sometimes the problem is the wax and fragrance are just not a good match. 

 

Sometimes the warmer is not hot enough for the wax or wax/fragrance choice.

 

i wish it were easier... you are taking good notes, so you're on a good path. Keep going! You'll get there.

[justajesuschick]

The very large Candle Maker's Group on Facebook OFTEN has new threads pop up where many are confused and post with authority that flashpoint is the point at which fragrance oil will evaporate or "burn off" so you should always add the oil at or below that temperature. This is false information. I have a number of oils which have a flashpoint of 100 degrees. I can assure you that if I added my oil to my wax at 100 degrees that it would not mix well and my wax would already be hardening!

As you research, be careful where you get your information and question the skill and experience of the "experts" offering the data.

[kandlekrazy]

Could it be you have "candle nose"?  Sorry if someone asked that and I missed it.  Many times when you are around fo a lot, you simply don't smell near as well.  Coffee beans help but by no means clear the sinuses. 

[Lambosi]

Thank you guys!Looks like its back to testing:) My husband originally posted this for me! Trying my best not to be discouraged.My heart is invested in making decent wax tarts, as well as money lol Has anyone used 464 for melts by its self or know of a good wax to blend with it? I currently have NG Pillar of Bliss,Just Scent 50/50 and NG 464,would any combo of these blends be a good idea?Trying to avoid wasting products i already have. Is vybar something i should try as well or is it not that much of a difference?

[Belinda]

I agree with what everyone else said. There are so many things that can affect hot throw.

This is just my opinion from what I've used myself and there are others have very different results with soy or a para/soy, but, in my opinion, the more paraffin you use the better the hot throw. Having said that, I'll say that I did use pillar of bliss and wan't impressed with it at all so never bought it again. That could've been my lack of experience, methods or not enough cure time or all of the above. I did use KY's tart wax which from what I've read is the same as JS's tart wax and had great hot throw with the fragrances that I used with it. I think fragrance has a lot to do with it as well as wax, methods, warmers used, where the warmer is placed, and cure time. Also, some FO's are just very faint no matter which wax you put them in or how much you use.

You'll get the hang of it though! 

 

What fragrances are you using? 

[Lambosi]

Thank you Belinda! I use the Halogen warmers,25 watt bulb, away from vents or cold drafts.I have 6 warmers throughout my house.I use to buy wax from a vendor and the wax was amazing! The hot throw fills up the house before the cube, chunk,tart etc. is even close to being melted completely.So I'm trying to get close to the same outcome as that.The wax i use to buy was soft but not mushy and i believe it had to be a parasoy blend...and my FOs are from Nature Garden and Just Scent.Same scents i use to love to buy from my vendor.

[Nickie]

Those scents you have are not guarenteed to work in the wax you and they aren't even guarenteed to work the same for you even if you had the same vendor's recipe.  In fact, I have come to realize that it doesn't work the same for all. On here people say I have 5 plus days out of this exact wax and this combo, I try that combo at this percentage of FO,poured at this temperature....and the throw wasn't the same for me. That is what makes this a long, frustrating process where testing never really. I have beeen testing for over a year now. And I still don't have the perfect combo. Close, but not there yet. 

 

Honestly the easiest thing you can do at this point is add your FO an the increased temp I suggested. Also another easy thing, as already mentioned, is to test the frangrance by putting salt in your warmer with the added frangrance. If the frangrance has good throw, you know it is not the frangrance (or even possibly your warmer).  Then start looking at your wax combos. 

[Cynna]

I'm going to be the irresponsible commenter here and probably get booed by a lot of the veterans and professionals, but here goes:  first of all, I won't use parasoy or paraffin as a matter of personal preference because of how paraffin is processed.  I got into wax tarts 50% to save money and 50% to eliminate paraffin, so I did my research and ended up with EcoSoya and beeswax.  I was using a 75/25 ratio but I recently cut way back because beeswax is expensive.  I like how creamy it comes out, though.  No, it doesn't have the throw paraffin does (with a few exceptions like Fruit Loops which will scent the entire neighborhood), but sometimes that's the whole point, and strangely enough the only complaints I've had about it are from myself (having been a former Scentsy addict).  Anyway, while I have a measuring cup and measure everything going IN, my formula for melting, stirring and pouring is about the same method as my cooking - hoofing it.  I wait until all the wax is melted completely, I take my glass cup out of the water and I let it sit until I can touch the handle on the glass without burning myself, then I dump my oil in and stir until the wax is clear again and pour.  If I'm only making a couple of bars, I use 3ml pipettes and I count.  I was only doing 8 transfers per 4 bars only to figure out I got away with that because I was using very strong oils, but actually I should have doubled the amount of FO going in.  I tried taking temperatures, I tried being a good obedient recipe-following crafter, but more often than not doing it the formulaic way almost guaranteed I'd screw something up.  I don't expect this work for everyone; it works for me.  But I understand the frustration of trying to do it the 'right way' and not getting results.  My best advice is do your wax research for your climate and intentions and find one you like working with, look for guidelines of how much FO to add to how much wax...I do testers of 2 clamshells (about 1/2 an ounce of oil or more...depending on how light the scent is) and try that.  I have seriously never had a problem with anything but most cherry scented FO's...for some reason they just never seem to throw well...or AT ALL.  Some FO's are going to be weaker than others just because that's the oil, not your process.  I've never checked compatibility or temperature...and maybe I'm lucky to have gotten away with that.  But I also think when recipes aren't working for you, you have to turn Mad Scientist and start experimenting to find what DOES.

 

Thanks for the idea of the salt and oil fellow crafters!  I had never heard of that and it could have saved me a lot of wasted wax and effort!  I always thought there should be a simpler way to test an FO.

[Moonstar]

4 hours ago, Cynna said:

I'm going to be the irresponsible commenter here and probably get booed by a lot of the veterans and professionals, but here goes:  first of all, I won't use parasoy or paraffin as a matter of personal preference because of how paraffin is processed.  I got into wax tarts 50% to save money and 50% to eliminate paraffin, so I did my research and ended up with EcoSoya and beeswax.  I was using a 75/25 ratio but I recently cut way back because beeswax is expensive.  I like how creamy it comes out, though.  No, it doesn't have the throw paraffin does (with a few exceptions like Fruit Loops which will scent the entire neighborhood), but sometimes that's the whole point, and strangely enough the only complaints I've had about it are from myself (having been a former Scentsy addict).  Anyway, while I have a measuring cup and measure everything going IN, my formula for melting, stirring and pouring is about the same method as my cooking - hoofing it.  I wait until all the wax is melted completely, I take my glass cup out of the water and I let it sit until I can touch the handle on the glass without burning myself, then I dump my oil in and stir until the wax is clear again and pour.  If I'm only making a couple of bars, I use 3ml pipettes and I count.  I was only doing 8 transfers per 4 bars only to figure out I got away with that because I was using very strong oils, but actually I should have doubled the amount of FO going in.  I tried taking temperatures, I tried being a good obedient recipe-following crafter, but more often than not doing it the formulaic way almost guaranteed I'd screw something up.  I don't expect this work for everyone; it works for me.  But I understand the frustration of trying to do it the 'right way' and not getting results.  My best advice is do your wax research for your climate and intentions and find one you like working with, look for guidelines of how much FO to add to how much wax...I do testers of 2 clamshells (about 1/2 an ounce of oil or more...depending on how light the scent is) and try that.  I have seriously never had a problem with anything but most cherry scented FO's...for some reason they just never seem to throw well...or AT ALL.  Some FO's are going to be weaker than others just because that's the oil, not your process.  I've never checked compatibility or temperature...and maybe I'm lucky to have gotten away with that.  But I also think when recipes aren't working for you, you have to turn Mad Scientist and start experimenting to find what DOES.

 

Thanks for the idea of the salt and oil fellow crafters!  I had never heard of that and it could have saved me a lot of wasted wax and effort!  I always thought there should be a simpler way to test an FO.

Interesting  I'll have to try the ECOSoya + beeswax . Ive never tried a foot loops - do you have a favorite supplier for this FO ? 

[Glassfishy]

There's no more Ecosoya... At least currently.

 

[Nickie]

7 hours ago, Glassfishy said:

There's no more Ecosoya... At least currently.

 

No. All of us using their brand (or even wanting to use their brand) can't right now. And when they decide to finally release their new stuff we will have to test and retest, even after we have already tested. Every single wax of theirs is currently sold out, with an unsecured release date months away. I can't believe a company of their size would do business like this.....leaving every one of their loyal customers high and dry, who no response, no guarantee, no wax.  It's business suicide, if you ask me. I'm over waiting for them. 

 

Ok. Off my soap box. ? 

[Dolphin14677]

3 hours ago, Nickie said:

No. All of us using their brand (or even wanting to use their brand) can't right now. And when they decide to finally release their new stuff we will have to test and retest, even after we have already tested. Every single wax of theirs is currently sold out, with an unsecured release date months away. I can't believe a company of their size would do business like this.....leaving every one of their loyal customers high and dry, who no response, no guarantee, no wax.  It's business suicide, if you ask me. I'm over waiting for them. 

 

Ok. Off my soap box. ? 

That's strange CS had it not long ago. Now I see its gone again

[TallTayl]

@Moonstar were you asking about Froot Loops scent above? I have used the one from Oregon trails (purchased years and years and years ago). It is so strong my eyes water OoB. It has some really pungent lemony notes. Pretty sure most other retailers is very similar but don't have samples to compare. 

[Moonstar]

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

@Moonstar were you asking about Froot Loops scent above? I have used the one from Oregon trails (purchased years and years and years ago). It is so strong my eyes water OoB. It has some really pungent lemony notes. Pretty sure most other retailers is very similar but don't have samples to compare. 

Oh thank you  

[Glassfishy]

On 5/2/2017 at 7:31 PM, Nickie said:

No. All of us using their brand (or even wanting to use their brand) can't right now. And when they decide to finally release their new stuff we will have to test and retest, even after we have already tested. Every single wax of theirs is currently sold out, with an unsecured release date months away. I can't believe a company of their size would do business like this.....leaving every one of their loyal customers high and dry, who no response, no guarantee, no wax.  It's business suicide, if you ask me. I'm over waiting for them. 

 

Ok. Off my soap box. ? 

Nickie, I'm all to aware it's gone. We bought a crapload back before last holiday season so I was unaware it was going bye-bye until February when we were almost out. I can't wait until they decide to come out with something that "might" be as good as the previous. So we're starting over with another wax. Had we known we would have bought 2 or 3 pallets to get us by until they came out to see if it was worth retesting. I found (3) boxes a month or so ago from Cajun Candles and paid $120 shipped for each box. Those are almost gone and I bought (10) 10# bags of the ecosoya to try and keep our shelves stocked. We're making candles in half batches so as not to use it all up. I know what you're going through. I've been testing the 464 and just can't get it to throw like the ecosoya did. We are going to try the 6006 which is a blend to see how that turns out.

[Nickie]

On 5/4/2017 at 1:03 PM, Glassfishy said:

Nickie, I'm all to aware it's gone. We bought a crapload back before last holiday season so I was unaware it was going bye-bye until February when we were almost out. I can't wait until they decide to come out with something that "might" be as good as the previous. So we're starting over with another wax. Had we known we would have bought 2 or 3 pallets to get us by until they came out to see if it was worth retesting. I found (3) boxes a month or so ago from Cajun Candles and paid $120 shipped for each box. Those are almost gone and I bought (10) 10# bags of the ecosoya to try and keep our shelves stocked. We're making candles in half batches so as not to use it all up. I know what you're going through. I've been testing the 464 and just can't get it to throw like the ecosoya did. We are going to try the 6006 which is a blend to see how that turns out.

I feel for you in having to start over with a business the size of yours. And you're right, you can't wait for them to release this stuff. Plus you shouldn't have to.

 

I can get 464 to do more for me than 6006. The best I can get out of that wax is really 5-6 hours (for tarts).  I love the look of it, love how it is sliceable and it will release from cups when poured at a lower temp, so if you get it to work, please let me know if you have any tricks to it. It does tend to mottle for me as well, which I didn't ever fully fix either. Good luck. Please keep us up to date. I know how frustrating this is.....so many of us do. 

[Cynna]

I don't want to create a rush, but.... there is a woman who bought up a bunch of cases of EcoSoya who is selling them on eBay.  It was a $15 jump from the last one I got, but at this point it's worth it.  Hopefully it'll last me until EcoSoya gets their poop together.  That was a REALLY bad way to do business, just flat out stop production and keep delaying the new products that are going to have to be tested and re-tested by veteran candle-makers???  I'm guessing they've taken a pretty big financial hit over this.  People who switch brands aren't likely to switch back.

 

Moonstar, IKR??  My husband puts that in our melters and I can smell it OUTSIDE with all the windows closed! 

[Glassfishy]

On 5/6/2017 at 0:09 PM, Cynna said:

I don't want to create a rush, but.... there is a woman who bought up a bunch of cases of EcoSoya who is selling them on eBay.  It was a $15 jump from the last one I got, but at this point it's worth it.  Hopefully it'll last me until EcoSoya gets their poop together.  That was a REALLY bad way to do business, just flat out stop production and keep delaying the new products that are going to have to be tested and re-tested by veteran candle-makers???  I'm guessing they've taken a pretty big financial hit over this.  People who switch brands aren't likely to switch back.

I couldn't get there fast enough... But couldn't find but one person sellling the Advanced. The largest they had was 5lbs at 28.95. If you find it please send me a link...

[Glassfishy]

On 5/6/2017 at 7:01 AM, Nickie said:

I can get 464 to do more for me than 6006. The best I can get out of that wax is really 5-6 hours (for tarts).  I love the look of it, love how it is sliceable and it will release from cups when poured at a lower temp, so if you get it to work, please let me know if you have any tricks to it. It does tend to mottle for me as well, which I didn't ever fully fix either. Good luck. Please keep us up to date. I know how frustrating this is.....so many of us do. 

 

Nickie,

 

Here is what I've found so far with the 6006 vs. the 464. I made some 6006 candles with various wicks on Friday. I did some variations based on another post I saw on here. I still have to do more testing but here is what I've found so far... The 6006 blended with 15% 464 has done the best so far for me. We also used zinc wicks. I did a 44-24-18 in a 12 oz. Mason jar. The flame was just a very nice burn. It needs to be wicked upon one more (I'm still learning the sizing for Zinc Wicks so Not sure if the next size is a 44-48-18 or 44-32-18). My zinc sample back from a few years back only had the 44-24-18 in it. The burn was all the way across but it was a slushy burn. Not solid 1/4" burn pool. And it smelled great. So I can only imagine if I can get a nicer burn pool how it will throw.

 

I did go back and retest my 464 candles with the Premier wicks from Aztec and they were great as well. Nice burn and great throw. So we will see.

[Nickie]

Thank you so much for sharing. 

[Sponiebr]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:32 AM, Lambosi said:

Masters, veterans. Women. My female Lords of this. I am a 25 year old dude that wants to impress the lady, and potentially others with this simple, yet amazing creation that one calls wax tarts. Please, If you have read this much, I thank you. I virtually kiss your eye balls for reading my pain. But someone please end this pain. Please end my long internet forum readings. My crazy ass formulas and methods. My typical 25 year old male mind of overthinking something so simple. Give me the answer. give me the gold. give me your SECRET. If you dont want to post your secret formula on a website, thats cool. Could ya message it to me? could you give me something else to try that could give me some hope? some shining light at the end of the infinite dark tunnel? I Love you all.

Dude... Several things:
1. They're Ladies not Lords.
2. I'm a Lord not a Lady.
3. (Sniff..) I think they must be referred to thus forth as Ladies.  
4. I will be thus known as LORD Sponie of the Bee ARRRGGH!!! Realm champion of the Verily Bad,(nay! countest thou to 5 and lobbest the grenade), Ideas.
5. Don't Panic. 

4. Bring a fluffy towel.
3. There are other dudes lurking in the shadows here... o.O (Nods head vigorosly... I've seen'm too! Scary! Furry things...) 
2.  "I virtually kiss your eye balls for reading my pain." (I'm taking notes. This is good stuff.... I hadn't THOUGHT of that before, I didn't even KNOW about eyeball kissing...)  

On 4/24/2017 at 1:00 PM, Lambosi said:

Thank you guys!Looks like its back to testing:) My husband originally posted this for me! 

1. This is going to be: (WAIT FOR IT!!!!!) 
LEGENDARY!!!!

(Sorry to interrupt... Please just ignore me...) 

Sponiebr: Executor of Bad Ideas and Sundry Services. 

 

[Moonstar]

On 5/6/2017 at 0:09 PM, Cynna said:

I don't want to create a rush, but.... there is a woman who bought up a bunch of cases of EcoSoya who is selling them on eBay.  It was a $15 jump from the last one I got, but at this point it's worth it.  Hopefully it'll last me until EcoSoya gets their poop together.  That was a REALLY bad way to do business, just flat out stop production and keep delaying the new products that are going to have to be tested and re-tested by veteran candle-makers???  I'm guessing they've taken a pretty big financial hit over this.  People who switch brands aren't likely to switch back.

 

Moonstar, IKR??  My husband puts that in our melters and I can smell it OUTSIDE with all the windows closed! 

SO you've also used the froot loops from oregon trails ? Are they all pretty much the same from different suppliers in your opinion.

[Belinda]

All the Fruit Loops FO's I've smelled are the same. I honestly can't tell a difference in them. That's just my opinion though for what it's worth  And I think I owe you some vanilla FO? So I'll throw in some Fruit loops in there. I got 100 small bottles in Thursday and with school being out I have time to  finally mail out some samples to different people. I get SO side tracked and overwhelmed during the school year!

7 minutes ago, Moonstar said:

SO you've also used the froot loops from oregon trails ? Are they all pretty much the same from different suppliers in your opinion.