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464 / CD wicks VS Premiere Wicks ??


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I've been experimenting with 464 + CD wicks. Im on the fence with these wicks. First off, Im not getting the throw I want with the FO's Ive been testing with.

Fillmore's Christmas tree I think will need more than 6%, so I have to retest it again at a higher fragrance load. The problem Im having with these wicks is they

burn SO hot. For example, my one test candle was burning well as far as flame size goes + burn pool but getting no HT. However, on my second burn that 

same wick was way too hot for the last half of candle. I think Id like to try the Premiere wicks and see what happens. For those of you that use Premiers what

is a good starting point for containers that are 3" in diameter ? What about double wicking - how do you figure that out with Premieres ? Im just looking for

basic guide lines. How do the Premieres burn, are they as hot as the CD's. On a side note, the 2 pines Ive tested / Fillmore Xmas tree + WSP Frasier Fir - I have

to say I prefer the WSP Frasier fir. But both have an awesome CT in 464. Are additives ever added to 464 to help with HT ? Another question I have is, Has anyone

mixed palm wax with soy. I recently bought a candle with this combo, it was awesome - great HT ... I buy a lot off of Etsy - mainly because I like to support small

business + I just love handmade anything ! I'm really impressed with the candles I order from Etsy, In all fairness I only order from about 3 companies. 

If you use 464 Im looking forward to hearing what suggestions you might have for me + if you think adding more than 6% FO would help - I really so think it would ( IDK?) 

Thanks everyone :) 

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I forgot to ask another question ... I could be wrong, but why does it seem like the HT is better on the second lighting. Thats discouraging to me since I think 

that first impressions are very important. I myself think that you should be able to smell a candle the first time around. RRRR so frustrating !!!!!

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Moonstar, how long have you let the candles cure for?  Geesh, I'm really surprized that you don't get a throw with Christmas Tree.  That scent is super strong for me with 6% in 464.  464 does take a while to cure.  I wait 2 weeks for mine.

 

Trappeur

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Moonstar, Ive been using 464 for almost a year and I have the same results. Although people tell me the candles look good as far as MP and burn, my throw sucks at 6%. Ill try upping the Fo a bit and see if that helps and I'm gonna try 415 next. I only smell my candles in my bedroom or garage, maybe I'm expecting too much!

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16 minutes ago, Trappeur said:

Moonstar, how long have you let the candles cure for?  Geesh, I'm really surprized that you don't get a throw with Christmas Tree.  That scent is super strong for me with 6% in 464.  464 does take a while to cure.  I wait 2 weeks for mine.

 

Trappeur

Hey Trappeur,

 

When you say you have a good throw, what size room are we talking about? Filling a bedroom and garage is more so on the light fragrance side wouldn't you say?

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5 hours ago, Trappeur said:

Moonstar, how long have you let the candles cure for?  Geesh, I'm really surprized that you don't get a throw with Christmas Tree.  That scent is super strong for me with 6% in 464.  464 does take a while to cure.  I wait 2 weeks for mine.

 

Trappeur

They had a solid 2 weeks, maybe even 15 days . The CT is great though and also Im getting a better HT on the second burn - why is that ? Do you think its 

possibly the wicks ? My first burn, which is about 3 hours, everything is fine, then at the second burn the candle starts getting way too hot. Positive points 

about the wicks are - no sooting, which I like. I wish I knew someone close that maybe I could give them the candle to burn to see if their nose is picking 

scent up than Im not . CS 8 oz square mason jars - what would you say is a good wick size, I will try your suggestion + see what happens . I really do think 

a candle should give off fragrance on the first burn - this is so frustrating :( I was getting a better HT from the WSP Frasier though. Do you use any additives

to your wax at all. I think Im going to try the Premier wicks too . I do have a sample box of 415, I might give that a whirl if I keep hitting a wall :( 

Edited by Moonstar
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The most discouraging part of making a candle is finding the right wick...IMO

I haven't used 464 in years but I did have a lot of wicking issues - never had throw issues really that I remember 

464 is soft all on its own, I remember always needing to go down in wick sizes and everyone has a different perception of what is good hot throw....I like strong candles and I never was able myself to get any decent throw to my standards with soy using 1 ounce per pound of wax which I think is roughly 6%

I usually always use 1.5 ounces per pound of wax in soy which is more like 9% I believe, some oils that are super strong or heavy I go down to 1.25 but never have I been happy with 1 ounce....not even with CC that tells you to use way less than normal BUT everyone's sniffer is different- I have been told by people mine are to strong and others say not strong enough- so I can't obviously please everyone so I make them based off my nose and some fragrances I just can't get a candle to work in... like CS Cinnamon bun- it will not burn at all with my normal fragrance load- I go down to 1ounce I can't smell it and the burn still isn't great- I wick up its better but gets to hot at the end....so that fragrance is not offered in a candle - melts only until I find a replacement 

You will have to play with scent loads and find what works for you but also making sure they burn good, to much FO can cause real problems and it can sometimes do the reverse making the throw less as a result of wick issues and to much fragrance- I have run into this with parasoy, being a soy girl and used to using more fragrance I started parasoy using the same and had to back off the FO to get a good burn and my throw increased amazingly....can't understand why it doesn't work for me with soy but I am not challenging it- spent way to much time perfecting the 415 and it's going to stay as is- lol

It can be done though..... - trapps candles are AMAZING and I believe she uses less fragrance, and 464 so maybe she can help more  

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, moonshine said:

The most discouraging part of making a candle is finding the right wick...IMO

I haven't used 464 in years but I did have a lot of wicking issues - never had throw issues really that I remember 

464 is soft all on its own, I remember always needing to go down in wick sizes and everyone has a different perception of what is good hot throw....I like strong candles and I never was able myself to get any decent throw to my standards with soy using 1 ounce per pound of wax which I think is roughly 6%

I usually always use 1.5 ounces per pound of wax in soy which is more like 9% I believe, some oils that are super strong or heavy I go down to 1.25 but never have I been happy with 1 ounce....not even with CC that tells you to use way less than normal BUT everyone's sniffer is different- I have been told by people mine are to strong and others say not strong enough- so I can't obviously please everyone so I make them based off my nose and some fragrances I just can't get a candle to work in... like CS Cinnamon bun- it will not burn at all with my normal fragrance load- I go down to 1ounce I can't smell it and the burn still isn't great- I wick up its better but gets to hot at the end....so that fragrance is not offered in a candle - melts only until I find a replacement 

You will have to play with scent loads and find what works for you but also making sure they burn good, to much FO can cause real problems and it can sometimes do the reverse making the throw less as a result of wick issues and to much fragrance- I have run into this with parasoy, being a soy girl and used to using more fragrance I started parasoy using the same and had to back off the FO to get a good burn and my throw increased amazingly....can't understand why it doesn't work for me with soy but I am not challenging it- spent way to much time perfecting the 415 and it's going to stay as is- lol

It can be done though..... - trapps candles are AMAZING and I believe she uses less fragrance, and 464 so maybe she can help more  

 

 

 

Thanks ! Trappeur has been a LIFE SAVER to me , can't say enough good things about her. She has a heart of gold. Well, I just poured my first square mason jar about

30 minutes ago using the 415 lol ! geez it takes FOREVER for that temp to drop lol ! It didn't get slushy in the pot at about 100 and thats the temp I poured at .

After the candle started solidifying the top looks kinda crusty lol ! For now Im going back to the drawing board with the 464 since Im getting smooth tops on my 

first pour (pouring @ 145-148ish) after these crazy holiday are over Im going to play around with the 415 & maybe even palm wax . Thanks again for your help

I really do appreciate it - you guys are all amazing ! 

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I just got some 464, still have candles curing, so we'll see how I do.  I've been using 444 (I switched to that one last year after using 415 since the 444 has greater fragrance load), but I thought I'd like to try working with 464 to see if it throws well while using less scent than 444. 

 

Moonstar ... in regard to additives, from what I understand, both 444/464 have a soy-based additive, although I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I believe it's for frosting reduction.  I've been told that vybar does not work with soy, but I have not tested this.  There are two types of vybar based on meltpoint of the wax (Vybar-260 would be the one) , but I haven't found any information regarding if it's beneficial with soy wax.  If it works with soy, I would think it would also help with smooth tops.  Maybe someone here has tested it in soy and can help with that question.

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On 11/11/2016 at 11:44 PM, FB157 said:

Moonstar, Ive been using 464 for almost a year and I have the same results. Although people tell me the candles look good as far as MP and burn, my throw sucks at 6%. Ill try upping the Fo a bit and see if that helps and I'm gonna try 415 next. I only smell my candles in my bedroom or garage, maybe I'm expecting too much!

Im going to try again at a higher % but not too high .... Im thinking I'll start at 7 % and do 1 candle @ 8 % tops ... that should be plenty. I just love how the 

wax looks though. Im hoping Oldglory will see the post and chime in about the Premiere wicks. 

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13 hours ago, birdcharm said:

I just got some 464, still have candles curing, so we'll see how I do.  I've been using 444 (I switched to that one last year after using 415 since the 444 has greater fragrance load), but I thought I'd like to try working with 464 to see if it throws well while using less scent than 444. 

 

Moonstar ... in regard to additives, from what I understand, both 444/464 have a soy-based additive, although I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I believe it's for frosting reduction.  I've been told that vybar does not work with soy, but I have not tested this.  There are two types of vybar based on meltpoint of the wax (Vybar-260 would be the one) , but I haven't found any information regarding if it's beneficial with soy wax.  If it works with soy, I would think it would also help with smooth tops.  Maybe someone here has tested it in soy and can help with that question.

Thanks for your input ! Now with the 444 wax does have a crusty top like 415 has when it sets up? What about wicks - which wicks did you use ? Are you sticking

with the same wicks now since your using 464 or did you switch ? Thanks again for any input, you guys are all awesome :) 

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On November 13, 2016 at 8:29 AM, moonshine said:

The most discouraging part of making a candle is finding the right wick...IMO

I haven't used 464 in years but I did have a lot of wicking issues - never had throw issues really that I remember 

464 is soft all on its own, I remember always needing to go down in wick sizes and everyone has a different perception of what is good hot throw....I like strong candles and I never was able myself to get any decent throw to my standards with soy using 1 ounce per pound of wax which I think is roughly 6%

I usually always use 1.5 ounces per pound of wax in soy which is more like 9% I believe, some oils that are super strong or heavy I go down to 1.25 but never have I been happy with 1 ounce....not even with CC that tells you to use way less than normal BUT everyone's sniffer is different- I have been told by people mine are to strong and others say not strong enough- so I can't obviously please everyone so I make them based off my nose and some fragrances I just can't get a candle to work in... like CS Cinnamon bun- it will not burn at all with my normal fragrance load- I go down to 1ounce I can't smell it and the burn still isn't great- I wick up its better but gets to hot at the end....so that fragrance is not offered in a candle - melts only until I find a replacement 

You will have to play with scent loads and find what works for you but also making sure they burn good, to much FO can cause real problems and it can sometimes do the reverse making the throw less as a result of wick issues and to much fragrance- I have run into this with parasoy, being a soy girl and used to using more fragrance I started parasoy using the same and had to back off the FO to get a good burn and my throw increased amazingly....can't understand why it doesn't work for me with soy but I am not challenging it- spent way to much time perfecting the 415 and it's going to stay as is- lol

It can be done though..... - trapps candles are AMAZING and I believe she uses less fragrance, and 464 so maybe she can help more  

 

 

 

This was great advice, thanks moonshine!

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11 hours ago, Moonstar said:

Thanks for your input ! Now with the 444 wax does have a crusty top like 415 has when it sets up? What about wicks - which wicks did you use ? Are you sticking

with the same wicks now since your using 464 or did you switch ? Thanks again for any input, you guys are all awesome :) 

 

 

For me, 444 & 464 have similar tops ... smooth, not real shiny; but I think some people achieve shinier tops by pouring a bit hotter than I have been doing.  The 415's that I poured did have a more rough-looking, matte finish on the tops.  I use the same wicks all around, based on the diameter of the glassware -- I use a squarebraid cotton (a 2/0 for smaller candles, #2 for 2.5-3"), which I know is not that popular among some members here, but I haven't had any negative issues with them myself.  I have tried a CD wick, but it seemed to lean a bit, which I guess takes some getting used to.  One day soon, I'll explore some of the other fine wicks that have been mentioned.

 

 

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What Im noticing thus far with the CD wicks is mushrooming begins after about an hour or so into the burn. I always trim the wick prior to burning + it seems as 

if the mushrom/ball bits keep falling into the hot wax as it burns. Im wondering if the candle in under wicked ? It is reaching to the sides but Im seeing a very small

residue of the wax clinging to the glass. Ive read positive posts on here about Premiere + Eco wicks with 464 soy maybe I'll give both of them a whirl + see what

happens. What are your favorite wicks in soy and why ? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated - thank you ! 

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On 11/16/2016 at 9:25 AM, Moonstar said:

What Im noticing thus far with the CD wicks is mushrooming begins after about an hour or so into the burn. I always trim the wick prior to burning + it seems as 

if the mushrom/ball bits keep falling into the hot wax as it burns. Im wondering if the candle in under wicked ? It is reaching to the sides but Im seeing a very small

residue of the wax clinging to the glass. Ive read positive posts on here about Premiere + Eco wicks with 464 soy maybe I'll give both of them a whirl + see what

happens. What are your favorite wicks in soy and why ? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated - thank you ! 

Did you ever get the wicking figured outon that jar Moonshine?

 

Trappeur

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Hi Trappeur :) Ive been burning the candle for several days now. Its about 1/4 way burned and so far (fingers crossed) it seems better. Unless Im crazy, which

wouldn't be too far fetched lol ! Seems as if the wick isn't creating such a big ball as it did at the beginning. I think I'll know more as the candle burns further down.

The VBN from VSP in the candle smells heavenly - its not a in your face strong scent but you can for sure smell it.just love it. Trappeur is that one FO that you

wick up in the 16 ounce Wide mouth Mason or do you keep the CD wick at 14. Which FO 's do you typically wick up- just in general . Also, I noticed Pure FO's has 

a VBN but the scent description doesn't sound like WSP. The PFO VBN states it doesn't have caramel + the WSP does. But it still sounds good lol ! 

The Peppermint Bark from JS smells so good - can't wait to burn that one + the VB Marshmallow. The VBM is not a super rich vanilla like others Ive smelled but 

theres something about it . I just can't keep my nose out of the curing candle. For sure more marshmallow - on CT anyhow to  my nose. Thanks for checking :) 

 

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Morning Moonstar!

The VBN from WSP I don't have to wick up.  I still use the CD14 and it is a good size wick for me.  Actually I really can't think of any that I have to wick up.  There were 2 a long time ago that I had to wick up.  But that was using c3.  In the 464 no wick ups....so far.....I haven't had any luck with finding a vbn as wonderful as WSP as expensive as they are so I haven't even been looking.  What I especially love about this VBN is long long after the candle has been put out the fragrance lingers for many many hours.  Actually I burned in my bedroom which is 14' x 26" and the fragrance truly actually lingered in the room till the next morning.  Now that is something I find not oils don't ever do.  Now to me that is impressive.  And I did 6%.

 

 

I'm placing an order today from Pure Fragrance oils for :

Black Vanilla

Harvest Moon

Oatmeal Milk and Honey

Pomegranite Noir

Pops Pipe

Vanilla Cream

Vanilla Noel

 

Trappeur

 

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3 hours ago, Trappeur said:

Morning Moonstar!

The VBN from WSP I don't have to wick up.  I still use the CD14 and it is a good size wick for me.  Actually I really can't think of any that I have to wick up.  There were 2 a long time ago that I had to wick up.  But that was using c3.  In the 464 no wick ups....so far.....I haven't had any luck with finding a vbn as wonderful as WSP as expensive as they are so I haven't even been looking.  What I especially love about this VBN is long long after the candle has been put out the fragrance lingers for many many hours.  Actually I burned in my bedroom which is 14' x 26" and the fragrance truly actually lingered in the room till the next morning.  Now that is something I find not oils don't ever do.  Now to me that is impressive.  And I did 6%.

 

 

I'm placing an order today from Pure Fragrance oils for :

Black Vanilla

Harvest Moon

Oatmeal Milk and Honey

Pomegranite Noir

Pops Pipe

Vanilla Cream

Vanilla Noel

 

Trappeur

 

I agree that the VBN from WSP lingers. I just love that. Im interested in hearing your opinion at least OOB when you receive these oils. Looks like you've made 

some great choices. I want to try the lavender too that Candy like so much. Theres also a olive blossom that has lemon verbena that id like to try but its out of stock. 

Did you ever try the Lemon biscotti from Fillmore yet - Im wondering if Im doing something wrong that I'm not getting a good HT. Its great in wax melts + I just 

love that FO. Well stay warm today - its in the low 40s + super windy. Last night we even had a dusting of snow .

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I'm just pouring the biscotti now can you believe it after I have had it what a month? lol

Is that where she gets her lavender from as I need one as I always used True Lavender from Tennessee.

Oh wow, that olive blossom with lemon verbena sounds awesome!  Ok, I have things sitting in my cart.  I'll go and add those 2.  Thanks!

 

Cold and nippy and very windy here right now.  I've got the wood stove going now.  I'm getting the fireplace going now as we speak.....

 

Trappeur

 

Stay warm.....and snow?  wow!

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