No Hot Throw

[birdcharm]

3 hours ago, Jcandleattic said:

Scent won't burn off unless you sustain it at a high heat for a very long time (20-25 minutes or more, at 200°+) 

I always pour my scent in rather fast. Nothing wrong with doing it that way, as long as it doesn't splash up or get everywhere making a mess.

I don't use any vybar in my paraffin because it's a blend (which most container paraffins are) and don't need it, as all additives are already blended into the wax. 

Hope this helps clarify a few things. 

 

 

I've seen differences in opinion in regard to the "burn off" topic -- I think it's interesting to note anyway.  I was taught that the wax should not be too much on the hot side when adding scent, but never read too much about the specifics of what that would be.  I noticed, for instance, on Cajun Candles site that they say the following in regard to adding scent: "Check your temperature again and be sure the wax is around 170 degrees. Add 1 oz of fragrance oil per pound of wax. Pour in your pre-measured amount of fragrance oil and stir slowly for two full minutes. This will allow the wax, fragrance oil and color to bond together. Keep a close eye on the temperature and keep it regulated at around 170 degrees. Fragrance oil will begin burning off at about 205 degrees, depending on the type of wax, and fragrance oil, so be careful you wax does not get too hot."

 

Although we're not making creams here or trying to achieve an emulsion where you add liquid by the drip while whipping, we are trying to fully incorporate the scented oil into the melted wax, so, imo, doing it slowly does makes sense.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong in pouring it in fast, I've done it many times, but I was recently reminded about the slow-adding and I feel there may be something to it.

 

Thank you for the correction regarding the use of vybar -- to be used only if you have created your own blend using straight paraffin.

 

[Moonstar]

I love reading everyones perspective of all aspects of working with wax. To me, its very interesting - thank you for sharing  

[Jcandleattic]

2 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I've seen differences in opinion in regard to the "burn off" topic -- I think it's interesting to note anyway.  I was taught that the wax should not be too much on the hot side when adding scent, but never read too much about the specifics of what that would be.  I noticed, for instance, on Cajun Candles site that they say the following in regard to adding scent: "Check your temperature again and be sure the wax is around 170 degrees. Add 1 oz of fragrance oil per pound of wax. Pour in your pre-measured amount of fragrance oil and stir slowly for two full minutes. This will allow the wax, fragrance oil and color to bond together. Keep a close eye on the temperature and keep it regulated at around 170 degrees. Fragrance oil will begin burning off at about 205 degrees, depending on the type of wax, and fragrance oil, so be careful you wax does not get too hot."

 

Although we're not making creams here or trying to achieve an emulsion where you add liquid by the drip while whipping, we are trying to fully incorporate the scented oil into the melted wax, so, imo, doing it slowly does makes sense.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong in pouring it in fast, I've done it many times, but I was recently reminded about the slow-adding and I feel there may be something to it.

 

Thank you for the correction regarding the use of vybar -- to be used only if you have created your own blend using straight paraffin.

 

I'm only going on my experience. After 18 years of doing this, you learn shortcuts that could help save both time and money. Because after-all, when this is a business, time is money. I stopped taking temperatures in my wax a long time ago, but I don't advocate this to anyone just starting out. I have learned when my wax is ready to have the scent incorporated. I also don't stir for a full 2 minutes, again not something I advocate for people new to the craft. After doing it a while, you get to know the wax you work with, and all the intricacies that go along with it.

In my experience the only time I have had scent burn off to the point that it would not throw is if I had it above 200 degrees for more than 20 minutes. Others' experience may be different.  

I do hope my experience can help someone. 

[TallTayl]

With my wax blends what I have figured out is the wax needs to be hot enough to fully dissolve the fragrance into the tiniest droplets possible and encapsulate those droplets within the smallest molecules of wax possible. My soy wax blend will form really big grains if it is too cool when adding FO and if it cools too slowly.

 

When my wax is slightly too cool  when I add the fragrance, the wax begins to form larger grains (you see a dull surface on the finished candle). Larger grains cannot suspend fragrance as neatly and tightly as smaller grains (shiny surface on finished candle).

 

The cold throw is different on the two identically formulated candles that were made at different temps. The dull, large wax grains smell more of the soy wax. The shiny topped small grains smell much more distinctly of the fragrance. HT seems better with the shiny topped one too, to my nose. It throws faster and more true to the FO. It is possible the FO is settling a bit in the cooler wax. 

 

I stir with with a rubber spatula for the first minute or so to really move the ingredients around. i quick cool my wax/fo blend in front of a big box fan in the pour pot while sirring periodically with the spatula to keep things well blended and quicken the cool of the whole pot. I pour when very cloudy, almost to the point of slush. If I wait too long the wax does not settle to a nice flat surface (my people don't seem to notice but I do).

 

if everything else was identical except for the temps at the start, YAMS, I would bet this is at least part of the cause. 

[YAMS]

22 hours ago, birdcharm said:

In some ways, other possibly or not possibly at all about when to add the scent (except, I wouldn't add it while wax is still on a heat source thinking that it may burn off, but I could be wrong), I think the stirring is really a main component, as mentioned by moonshine. 

 

I've seen "how to" (not) videos on youtube showing adding scent -- first, they always pour it like they're pouring a drink and swishing a stick through the wax for a minute -- that's not how to add scent when making candles (it makes me so mad to see them teaching people that!!)  My old books say to add scent a drop at at time!!!  Now, I don't seem to have the patience for that entirely, but I do add it slowly, while stirring -- with a SPOON, not a stick -- in circles, in figure eights, back & forth -- and again before I pour.  I really think that incorporating the scent into the wax has a lot to do with all of this -- also, with paraffin or blends, the use (not overuse, which can have an opposite effect), of the correct vybar (there are two types, based on meltpoint of the wax), can help too. 

 

That's my two-cents anyway!

 

Interesting point Birdcharm.  I don't take my time to add the FO.   I don't do it slowly.  I do take the time to stir.  Back and forth and in circles for about two minutes with a spoon.  Question:  Vybar, I have seen comments on this additive before.  What does it help with?  Does it actually impact the HT?  Thanks for the great suggestions.   

[birdcharm]

5 hours ago, YAMS said:

Interesting point Birdcharm.  I don't take my time to add the FO.   I don't do it slowly.  I do take the time to stir.  Back and forth and in circles for about two minutes with a spoon.  Question:  Vybar, I have seen comments on this additive before.  What does it help with?  Does it actually impact the HT?  Thanks for the great suggestions.   

 

Vybar helps with paraffin, but I don't know if it does anything with soy, I've been told it has no affect with soy wax. 

 

I know that some people add a tiny bit of shortening to their blends to soften the wax to enhance scent throw, but I've never experimented with it -- I also wouldn't do it unless I really read up on it. 

 

[Moonstar]

23 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

Vybar helps with paraffin, but I don't know if it does anything with soy, I've been told it has no affect with soy wax. 

 

I know that some people add a tiny bit of shortening to their blends to soften the wax to enhance scent throw, but I've never experimented with it -- I also wouldn't do it unless I really read up on it. 

 

I remember when I ordered wicks from a supplier in Texas she told me to add 1 Tablespoon on beeswax pp of wax to soy. She said it helps with cure time

and scent throw ??? Never tried it nor do I believe anyone on here uses BW in their soy - interesting though . 

[birdcharm]

I think some soy waxes do not mix well with beeswax.  I did notice that mentioned on a website somewhere, for instance, for some Golden Blends.  I wonder also if you're wishing to soften a parasoy blend just a bit, if it could help to add a little straight soy?  That might be something worth checking out.  Yams ... anything in candle making is never a waste imo ... that's one thing I adore about it ... you can usually melt things back down, use the wax for chunk candles, or burn them in the winter to keep warm.     When you're first starting out, and even when you're not first starting, often times, everything is an experiment until you've come up with some solid techniques & recipes and have tested them thoroughly, which is usually, at least for me, after several tries and a few failed attempts!

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by birdcharm
added word "some"

[YAMS]

On 10/15/2016 at 11:07 AM, TallTayl said:

With my wax blends what I have figured out is the wax needs to be hot enough to fully dissolve the fragrance into the tiniest droplets possible and encapsulate those droplets within the smallest molecules of wax possible. My soy wax blend will form really big grains if it is too cool when adding FO and if it cools too slowly.

 

When my wax is slightly too cool  when I add the fragrance, the wax begins to form larger grains (you see a dull surface on the finished candle). Larger grains cannot suspend fragrance as neatly and tightly as smaller grains (shiny surface on finished candle).

 

The cold throw is different on the two identically formulated candles that were made at different temps. The dull, large wax grains smell more of the soy wax. The shiny topped small grains smell much more distinctly of the fragrance. HT seems better with the shiny topped one too, to my nose. It throws faster and more true to the FO. It is possible the FO is settling a bit in the cooler wax. 

 

I stir with with a rubber spatula for the first minute or so to really move the ingredients around. i quick cool my wax/fo blend in front of a big box fan in the pour pot while sirring periodically with the spatula to keep things well blended and quicken the cool of the whole pot. I pour when very cloudy, almost to the point of slush. If I wait too long the wax does not settle to a nice flat surface (my people don't seem to notice but I do).

 

if everything else was identical except for the temps at the start, YAMS, I would bet this is at least part of the cause. 

Interesting TallTayl, the way you've been able to figure out what works and that you pour at a very cloudy point.  I use 4627 which I have read that one should pour at around 185 degrees.   Yes, the only thing I did different was to transfer my wax from the heating pot to a Pyrex cup and then added the FO.  I am assuming since my house is so cold all the time, that the temperature dropped to lower than an optimal point.   Thanks for this information.  I learn so much from you guys.   

[YAMS]

On 10/15/2016 at 6:47 PM, birdcharm said:

I think some soy waxes do not mix well with beeswax.  I did notice that mentioned on a website somewhere, for instance, for some Golden Blends.  I wonder also if you're wishing to soften a parasoy blend just a bit, if it could help to add a little straight soy?  That might be something worth checking out.  Yams ... anything in candle making is never a waste imo ... that's one thing I adore about it ... you can usually melt things back down, use the wax for chunk candles, or burn them in the winter to keep warm.     When you're first starting out, and even when you're not first starting, often times, everything is an experiment until you've come up with some solid techniques & recipes and have tested them thoroughly, which is usually, at least for me, after several tries and a few failed attempts!

 

Birdcharm, you think I should attempt to to add a little straight soy to my 4627 Blend?   If so, what's the norm for blending?  What percentage? Are the instructions on properly blending?  Thanks a bunch

[Flicker]

Since this has not been asked, what jar are you using? If not a common jar, what is the exact diameter where the jar is widest from side to side?
How much scent are you adding to what amount of wax? Is that by weight or liquid measure?
What wick are you using? Size and series?

Are you adding anything other than the 4627?
How long did you cure the candles?

 

All of this can make a big difference. I worked with this wax for nearly 15 years in my prior job. Maybe I can help

[YAMS]

15 minutes ago, Flicker said:

Since this has not been asked, what jar are you using? If not a common jar, what is the exact diameter where the jar is widest from side to side?
How much scent are you adding to what amount of wax? Is that by weight or liquid measure?
What wick are you using? Size and series?

Are you adding anything other than the 4627?
How long did you cure the candles?

 

All of this can make a big difference. I worked with this wax for nearly 15 years in my prior job. Maybe I can help

Good questions Flicker.  

 

• I use two types of jars:  Libby Status Jars 3 1/4" diameter and The Dollar Tree Square Jars 3 1/2" diameter but when measured corner to corner is approximately 4" .  If you have any recommendations for this jar it would be helpful.. So far it's a headache. 
• I am using approximately 9% FO (at least with the ones that didn't get a HT on) for the ones that have worked for me in the past I have added 11% and I got an excellent HT.  
• U measure by weight (I use my digital kitchen scale which is very exact).
• I use Zinc Wicks. For the 3/14" Libby Status Jars I use a 60 zinc wick.  It has always worked except for these three batches that I made (CS-Blue Spruce, CS-Oakmoss and Amber, CS - Brown Sugar & Fig Type) .  For the square jars, I am still trying to figure out the right wick size.   I either under wick or over wick and I believe its because of the corner to corner square shape of the jar that it is much more difficult to wick.  
• I do not add anything else to the 4627.
• I cured them for about 7 days (couldn't resist :-))
• I heat my wax to 195 degrees.  Add FO at 185 degrees.  Stir for 2 minutes and pour right after. 

 

Wow!!!  You have lots of years using 4627!  Hopefully you can help.   It is said that it can hold up to 12%. What are your thoughts on that?  I switched from soy 464 to 4627 because I read the HT is superior and I am a sucker for strong smelling candles.  Flicker, any suggestions you have for me will be greatly appreciated.  

[moonshine]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:04 PM, Moonstar said:

I remember when I ordered wicks from a supplier in Texas she told me to add 1 Tablespoon on beeswax pp of wax to soy. She said it helps with cure time

and scent throw ??? Never tried it nor do I believe anyone on here uses BW in their soy - interesting though . 

When I used 464 I did this and it worked wonderfully- it made the wax a little harder which made my wicks perform better which in turn gave me better throw 

I also tried palm steric and it worked well also 

[Moonstar]

1 hour ago, moonshine said:

When I used 464 I did this and it worked wonderfully- it made the wax a little harder which made my wicks perform better which in turn gave me better throw 

I also tried palm steric and it worked well also 

Interesting ... do you recall if that had you then wick up ? BTW I just received my elements order Rocky Mountain Christmas is awesome &  I also ordered balsam citrus very nice as well seems very strong 

& a sample of votivo grapefruit type - super yummy ! 

[moonshine]

If I recall correctly I was having issues with the 464 being way to soft and the wicks I was using were to hot-  I used the CD and HTP series in testing with this wax (they were the 2 I narrowed down as being the best)

I would get a deep melt pool that looked like old yellowed crisco grease and it just turned plain ugly on me after each burn cooled-  I liked my wicks and had decent throw, wicking down I would have issues with it not burning right at all

I started adding 1T beeswax per pound and it helped me tremendously-  my wicks worked perfect and I got better throw- I wouldn't say hugely significant but it helped, probably because it didnt smell like smoking hot grease anymore- lol

I cannot remember which one I ended up liking better the beeswax or palm stearic I would have to look back on my notes but my continuous quest for better led me to try the 415 and I never looked back, it just works for me all around even though it is a PIA when pouring waiting forever to cool

 

Glad you like the rocky mountain Xmas-  LOVE that scent- I will have to try the balsam citrus someday but I just added more holiday oils and STILL have not poured any!

Edited October 17, 2016 by moonshine

[birdcharm]

Now I get it ... the GW415 is compatible with beeswax, but (according to Peak anyway), 444 & 464 is not.  Moonshine, can you tell us how the 415 with 1T beeswax does as far as any wet spots? 

 

I'm in the midst of switching from the 415 I was using previously, lured to 444 due to the add'l fragrance load feature, but having some wet spot issues.  I will say that although the manufacturer says you can pour this at 125dF., it seems as though it does better poured a bit cooler than that.  You've got me thinking that perhaps I should have kept on with 415 adding some beeswax.

[moonshine]

I do not use beeswax with 415- I think I had tried it in the beginning of using this wax but that was a long time ago

444 is one soy I have never tried so I do not know how it performs or would perform with beeswax either 

 

[birdcharm]

Sorry, Moonshine, I misunderstood you.  Yams, I was just wondering out loud about possibly trying to soften your wax up a little since it's not performing well.  I have no idea how much soy you could safely add and still have the same fragrance load; I'm the type to experiment with small candles for such things, but don't want to lead you down the wrong path!  I've read wonderful reviews of this wax, so maybe Flicker will have some answers for you since she has experience with it.  It sounds like it's a really nice wax!

[moonshine]

28 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

Sorry, Moonshine, I misunderstood you.  Yams, I was just wondering out loud about possibly trying to soften your wax up a little since it's not performing well.  I have no idea how much soy you could safely add and still have the same fragrance load; I'm the type to experiment with small candles for such things, but don't want to lead you down the wrong path!  I've read wonderful reviews of this wax, so maybe Flicker will have some answers for you since she has experience with it.  It sounds like it's a really nice wax!

 Not a problem 

for the wet spots try pouring a little cooler and have your jars heated just a touch 

I keep mine on a griddle on the lowest temp to just make them warm or if I'm doing a huge batch I use the oven 

I do still get some wet spots here and there and haven't completely figured out why but I don't color mine so it isn't a huge eye sore 

[YAMS]

On 10/15/2016 at 11:07 AM, TallTayl said:

With my wax blends what I have figured out is the wax needs to be hot enough to fully dissolve the fragrance into the tiniest droplets possible and encapsulate those droplets within the smallest molecules of wax possible. My soy wax blend will form really big grains if it is too cool when adding FO and if it cools too slowly.

 

When my wax is slightly too cool  when I add the fragrance, the wax begins to form larger grains (you see a dull surface on the finished candle). Larger grains cannot suspend fragrance as neatly and tightly as smaller grains (shiny surface on finished candle).

 

The cold throw is different on the two identically formulated candles that were made at different temps. The dull, large wax grains smell more of the soy wax. The shiny topped small grains smell much more distinctly of the fragrance. HT seems better with the shiny topped one too, to my nose. It throws faster and more true to the FO. It is possible the FO is settling a bit in the cooler wax. 

 

I stir with with a rubber spatula for the first minute or so to really move the ingredients around. i quick cool my wax/fo blend in front of a big box fan in the pour pot while sirring periodically with the spatula to keep things well blended and quicken the cool of the whole pot. I pour when very cloudy, almost to the point of slush. If I wait too long the wax does not settle to a nice flat surface (my people don't seem to notice but I do).

 

if everything else was identical except for the temps at the start, YAMS, I would bet this is at least part of the cause. 

Talltayl this is a good way to pay attention to the appearance of my finished candles.  I will pay closer attention note to the finish of the top of my candles from here on.  Interesting how much I learn here daily   Thanks

[Kaybee23]

I use the 415 wax with about 3% beeswax and it smooths out the tops of my candles and helps them set up better when cooling.

[CatCatCandles]

On 10/14/2016 at 4:18 PM, moonshine said:

? it is very challenging - it took me years to perfect it but it's what I started with so I don't know any different really 

I could pour hotter with 135 and 464 but the throw wasn't there for me 

after testing 415 I was blown away by the throw but could not get it to look decent for a vey very long long time 

playing with parasoy I'm not going to lie - I LOVE heating and pouring and I'm done! 

Beautiful candles everytime but my challenge is still finding the perfect wick that doesn't leave black soot all over the jar, that's a whole new world for me even though soy can do that also you don't see it so much unless you use the lid to extinguish (guilty) or burn in a drafty area (again guilty) lol

what type of soy are you experimenting with?

 

 

Hi,

which parasoy blend were you using and were you able to find a wick that was satisfactory in terms of burning clean with good HT? I'm currently testing some gb464 and got ig4360 to blend it with. 

 

thanks. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by CatCatCandles