464 vs C3 Ring the bell :)

[Sledgehammer09]

464 or C3 that is the question. I've been going over everyone's comments, recommendations, frustrations, and success stories. At the end of the day it really seems like a toss up.

I would love to get feedback from some of you that have worked with both and why you chose one over another.

Also, Trapper, I read C3 was your bread and butter for awhile but you recently switched to 464, how's that working out and if you don't mind sharing why the switch?

464 seems a bit less finicky but I've only been testing the two for a few months so far. HT is one of my biggest concerns so maybe you can enlighten us how the two compare in that regard?

Really appreciate the help. Thanks.

[kandlekrazy]

Can you get both at a supplier that is close to your home?  I've used both, both are finicky.  All soy has some issue but I'm embracing it! 

I settled on C3 after testing many, mostly due to a local supplier that carries it but honestly I've come to know and love the wax.  I use USA in both

candles and melts and it improves the C3's issues.  Make a good candle with a centered wick that both burns and smells good and they will sell.

Most customers do not even notice what we do in our candles.

[Guest OldGlory]

I know chandlers who use both nearly interchangeably. That supports what you've read.

Many of our choices are based on numerous factors, like which company has the best price, the best service, the best shipping prices, the quickest shipping, the other items we need to purchase, etc. I buy 464 from Aztec in Knoxville, TN because I can drive there and pick it up. I buy most of my fragrances there for the same reason. They don't carry C3. My choice has nothing to do with preference of 464 over C3. You should consider which wax is the least expensive to get in your hands and learn to work with it.

[Sledgehammer09]

Thanks for the feedback. Sadly I'm always going to have to ship since Az isn't much of a candle making state haha I'm waiting on my premier wick sample pack to keep testing. Hopefully soon my first candle can hit the shelf. I'm using recycled wine bottles that have about a 3" diameter. Seen the idea out and about so I'm attempting to recreate. I'm still hoping trapper will chime in to let me know her reason for switching too. Maybe for the same reasons as above. Suppliers are hard to come by within a reasonable distance. Anywhoozie, thanks for the help.

[Trappeur]

Hello Sledge,

 

I used extensively for 8 give or take years c3.  The reason I switched was for none other than the fact that one day I ran out of the wax and it wasn't in stock at Candle Science at the time so being that I had been ordering quite a bit from Alabaster (Now Community Candle) it was suggested by Paula the owner to try 415 which I did.  Iiked it somewhat and I could use the same size wicks as I did in the C3, but I didn't like waiting to pour till it got to the slushy state about 100 degrees.  Then the owner of Community said I might like to try 464 as it was pretty similar she said to the 415 but I could pour hotter.  So I did give it a whirl and really liked it and could pour where I do now anywhere from 140 up to 150 give or take.  I still use c3 now and then since I mastered it and I do love it and I also love the 464...Both I can use the same size wicks.  I did find the c3 would produce more wet spots than 464.

I used to dye my candles but couldn't deal with the frosting which soy is a stickler for so I went au naturelle and never looked back.  They both put out great fragrance throws of course depending on the oils you find compatable.  I can pretty much do a 1 pour with both waxes meaning not having to do a second thin pour on the top.

 

I agree with Kandlecrazy said and Old Glory too.  If you have a supplier close to you where you could drive to or someone close enough where shipping is reasonable I definitely would get my products there and learn  to master that wax.  It will save you dollars in the end.

 

With the c3 I primarily used htp wicks.  With the 464 I can get away with the htps but have really settled on the cd's.  I know Old Glory who uses 464 uses premiers.   And like Kandlerazy said with soy you have to learn to embrace certain characteristic things with each wax.  So true.  I have never had to use any additives except uv inhibitor being that I sell to shops and all of them have flourescent lighting.  Even a few fragrances still turn yellow with using the uv so I try and stay away from certain fragrances when selling to shops.  I can't stress enough too that curing is so important in attaining a great throw.  I do 2 weeks for the 464 or c3....but this is just me.  If your dying you can pretty much expect to see frosting in both waxes.  So either you learn to embrace that feature or get a frosted jar or color jar or go au naturelle.  What ever choice you make, either the c3 or 464, you picked 2 great waxes and I don't think you need to look any further or try changing to something else.  Just have to have patience, time, persistance and lots of money you will spend on all the fabulous and not so fabulous oils out there! ha! lol  Good luck and keep us posted of your findings.

 

Trappeur

[Sledgehammer09]

Thanks so much everyone for your replies and help! I'm testing the premiers now in the c3 and I'm hoping to get some great results soon. I'll keep you'all posted.

Old Glory, quick question on the premiers ... I have a 3" diameter jar opening .... what do you think would be your first test .... 795's? I know different oils will effect the results on each candle but I figured I'd ask since these badboys are in your wheelhouse.

Thanks again guys!

Edited November 14, 2015 by Sledgehammer09

[Guest OldGlory]

Depends on the container. In 8 oz tins I use a 785 or 790. In a tumbler I would try a 780 or 785, but you might have to go a bit smaller.

[Sledgehammer09]

OK thanks for the advice.

 

Last question and I'll leave you alone I promise ....

 

Old Glory and Trappeur ...

If using C3 what was your typical frag load? 6% as recommended as the max or have you gone higher?

Same question for the 464? I know it claims 12% is max load but man, that seems like a ton of oil and potential overkill/waste of money considering oils are usually the most expensive part of the process.

 

Thanks for the help in adsvance.

[Guest OldGlory]

464 here...

I use 6% in candles, and I do the math to figure that as 1 oz of FO in 1 lb of wax. I test every fragrance before I sell it and if it doesn't measure up, I don't sell it. And I use people to test them - I know that I can't rely on my ability to smell them.

I will use 8% in melts sometimes, but I can't tell you that the difference is very noticeable. It's just a selling point.

I agree that using a higher % is a waste of money. There are lots of fragrances that work really well at 6%. If you find one that you love, you have to have it, and it requires 8 or 9% and the difference is noticeable, you can make an exception on an individual basis.

[Trappeur]

Hi Sledge,

 

I've always used 6% in the c3 and 464.  I did a couple of months ago do 8% with an oil called maple sugar from Backwoods and it literally took over the whole house....loved that....lol...I've always loved Backwoods fragrances but I really didn't have much luck with them in the C-3 with the exception of their Mac Apple which is just beautiful.  I had tried 6% in maple sugar and no luck till I upped it to 8% but very rarely do a higher percentage than 6%.  I just learned to be patient and wait for that 2 week cure and that did the trick.

 

Just yesterday for example.....ok...I had made a small candle - 3" wide x  4 feet tall in Pumpkin Pecan Waffles from Tennessee.  I had forgotten about this candle and it cured for 3 weeks.  I brought the candle downstairs in my basement and lit it and honest to God that tiny candle took over the whole basement (1100 square feet).  I was simply amazed as I always have to have a couple candles going or burn one of my super large 3 wick jobby candles going to get a  great throw for me.  But then again, of course having a great oil that is compatable for the 464 wax is a plus.  Also don't forget too, besides having the correct wick and great oil and great cure time, the size of the room also comes into play when burning your candle.  Too big a room with a smaller candle definitely comes into play in determining a good throw.  

 

What fragrances are you testing by the way?

 

Trappeur

[Guest OldGlory]

Trap, umm, you did not mean 4 feet tall, did you? It is probably throwing like it's 4' tall, but my guess is that it's 4 inches tall.

[Sledgehammer09]

Thanks for validating the percentages guys. I've been sticking with 6% also. If I were to try the 464 I might mess around with a bit higher just to see if there is much diference but from what I've been told the more oil we use the different wick results we will get. I've definately noticed that my nose is de-sensitized. I took one of my candles to work to test it out at my desk and I could barely smell it. Then, to my surprise, a collegue walks in and starts ranting and raving about how good it smelled in the room (large room by the way). He even told me I might need to put it out because it was a little too strong after awhile. Just goes to show that our noses are pretty smart and create immunities to certain smells haha. Let's see, as far as scent testing goes, I have been using cierra candles frasier fir which smells amazing, Rustic essentials pumpkin souffle and candlescience cranberry marmalade. I'm kind of all over the place as far as vendors go. I haven't quite honed in on which vendor I like most but as you guys mentioned before shipping costs are the biggest concern so I try to stick with candlescience since they ship quick and are one state line away.

 

Sidenote: testing of the premiers ..... I'm not too sure how well they are doing in the C3. To get a full melt pool, I need to be 793 or higher and definately need to let it burn the full 4hrs, however, the downfall of going that large is the size of the flame. These guys can get enormous if not trimmed to a nubbin before each use. I'm concerned omce I start selling them that our customers aren't going to follow the directions and burn thier house down. To be completely honest, I never read any candle direction nor did I ever trim a wick before I started making candles. Most people don't know that's even a rule. So, that's my dilemma. Trappeur, tell me more about the htp's and cd's. I have sample packs of both here at the house but never found a good combo. The htp's have a large curl which seemed to lopside the meltpool so I scratched them off pretty quickly because I like a centered burn and I haven't tried the Cd's yet. What is the difference between cd's and cdn's? I'm definately willing to re-think the htp's and possibly try the cd's but for a 3" x 5" glass jar what size would you go with for each wick? Have you guys ever tried LX's?

[Trappeur]

Trap, umm, you did not mean 4 feet tall, did you? It is probably throwing like it's 4' tall, but my guess is that it's 4 inches tall.

lol, lol,  omg...... lol

 

That sure is a bigin candle isn't it? lol

 

Trappeur

[Sledgehammer09]

lol I was just curious how you kept it from falling over and how much do you sell a 4 ft candle for? haha too funny

[Sledgehammer09]

Hello Sledge,

 

I used extensively for 8 give or take years c3.  The reason I switched was for none other than the fact that one day I ran out of the wax and it wasn't in stock at Candle Science at the time so being that I had been ordering quite a bit from Alabaster (Now Community Candle) it was suggested by Paula the owner to try 415 which I did.  Iiked it somewhat and I could use the same size wicks as I did in the C3, but I didn't like waiting to pour till it got to the slushy state about 100 degrees.  Then the owner of Community said I might like to try 464 as it was pretty similar she said to the 415 but I could pour hotter.  So I did give it a whirl and really liked it and could pour where I do now anywhere from 140 up to 150 give or take.  I still use c3 now and then since I mastered it and I do love it and I also love the 464...Both I can use the same size wicks.  I did find the c3 would produce more wet spots than 464.

I used to dye my candles but couldn't deal with the frosting which soy is a stickler for so I went au naturelle and never looked back.  They both put out great fragrance throws of course depending on the oils you find compatable.  I can pretty much do a 1 pour with both waxes meaning not having to do a second thin pour on the top.

 

I agree with Kandlecrazy said and Old Glory too.  If you have a supplier close to you where you could drive to or someone close enough where shipping is reasonable I definitely would get my products there and learn  to master that wax.  It will save you dollars in the end.

 

With the c3 I primarily used htp wicks.  With the 464 I can get away with the htps but have really settled on the cd's.  I know Old Glory who uses 464 uses premiers.   And like Kandlerazy said with soy you have to learn to embrace certain characteristic things with each wax.  So true.  I have never had to use any additives except uv inhibitor being that I sell to shops and all of them have flourescent lighting.  Even a few fragrances still turn yellow with using the uv so I try and stay away from certain fragrances when selling to shops.  I can't stress enough too that curing is so important in attaining a great throw.  I do 2 weeks for the 464 or c3....but this is just me.  If your dying you can pretty much expect to see frosting in both waxes.  So either you learn to embrace that feature or get a frosted jar or color jar or go au naturelle.  What ever choice you make, either the c3 or 464, you picked 2 great waxes and I don't think you need to look any further or try changing to something else.  Just have to have patience, time, persistance and lots of money you will spend on all the fabulous and not so fabulous oils out there! ha! lol  Good luck and keep us posted of your findings.

 

Trappeur

Trappeur,

Htp's with c3. I'm going to give them a whirl again. 3" glass opening in a cut recycled wine bottle. Suggestion on sizes to test?

Thanks

[kandlekrazy]

General Wax is in North Hollywood, CA.  They carry the C3 wax as well as HTP wicks if that's what you end up deciding on.  I don't think shipping will be bad to AZ.  I am 4 hours from them so sometimes I pick up

but honestly unless I'm heading that way the gas is more than the $20 shipping charge on a 50# box of wax or $30 for 100#.   They charge exact shipping and are very helpful with questions about candlemaking on

the phone as they hold classes there as well.   They have what they call an outlet store but the prices are not discounted but you can go in and shop which is fun!

[Trappeur]

Which jar are you using?  the style and the size?

 

Trappeur

[Sledgehammer09]

Which jar are you using?  the style and the size?

 

 

Hi Trappeur,

I'm working with recycled wine bottle that I'm cutting and sanding down. Roughly 5" tall and the diameter is 3".

[Sledgehammer09]

General Wax is in North Hollywood, CA.  They carry the C3 wax as well as HTP wicks if that's what you end up deciding on.  I don't think shipping will be bad to AZ.  I am 4 hours from them so sometimes I pick up

but honestly unless I'm heading that way the gas is more than the $20 shipping charge on a 50# box of wax or $30 for 100#.   They charge exact shipping and are very helpful with questions about candlemaking on

the phone as they hold classes there as well.   They have what they call an outlet store but the prices are not discounted but you can go in and shop which is fun!

awesome!! Thanks for the heads up on general wax. I never heard of them until now. Really appreciate it

[C Dizzle]

Edit: This is my first post on these forums ever!

 

 

Hi, I have just started the craft and made about 25 or so pounds of GB 464. I do like what I am making, and I have been getting colors I like. I have been mainly sticking with the 2oz status, 12 oz status, and 21 oz status. 2 oz uses ECO 4 (although it's possibly a wee bit too large), and the other jars I've been using Eco 14 with good results. I have more frosting and wet spots than I like, but from what I've read, I need to embrace it or use solid color jars as I am always going to dye my candles, period.

 

I have been wanting to test out other high quality waxes but from what I can tell, C3 seems the only real alternative. I was going to check out CB 135 but all I have found on here is people saying they can't get good hot throw, and if so, no thanks. CB 135 only using American farmers was a selling point to me, but if people can't get a nice HT, then I'm buying a subpar product and passing it off to my customers.

 

I have seen advice to only use one type of wax, and that is great advice, but I do think I would like to try 2 and see which I like better after a 50lb case of each. I will eventually settle with one after reading a lot, hearing from seasoned chandlers, and after using up a lot of wax! I have a few questions.

 

1. Does the C3 work better in summer temperatures? I have read GB 464 as having issues shipping in warmer weather and may not be the best for an outside venue either. If the waxes are comparable, I could see this alone convincing me to stick with C3 if it's better in heat.

 

2. I am using ECO, do any of you prefer CD wicks? If so, why?

 

3. Are CD the same size as ECO, as in, is CD 4 equal to ECO 4?

 

4. Have any of you tried wood wicks in these? If so, yay or nay?

 

5. I have noticed sometimes people saying you need a two week cure. My first candle, red hot cinnamon from candle science has a CRAZY hot throw. Craaaaaazy, at 9% FO load and a little UV inhib, and I only let it cure a day. Have you tested a candle at 24 hours and got light HT, and then tested one that cured two weeks and its an extreme difference?

Edited November 27, 2015 by C Dizzle

[Cats candles]

Edit: This is my first post on these forums ever!

 

 

Hi, I have just started the craft and made about 25 or so pounds of GB 464. I do like what I am making, and I have been getting colors I like. I have been mainly sticking with the 2oz status, 12 oz status, and 21 oz status. 2 oz uses ECO 4 (although it's possibly a wee bit too large), and the other jars I've been using Eco 14 with good results. I have more frosting and wet spots than I like, but from what I've read, I need to embrace it or use solid color jars as I am always going to dye my candles, period.

 

I have been wanting to test out other high quality waxes but from what I can tell, C3 seems the only real alternative. I was going to check out CB 135 but all I have found on here is people saying they can't get good hot throw, and if so, no thanks. CB 135 only using American farmers was a selling point to me, but if people can't get a nice HT, then I'm buying a subpar product and passing it off to my customers.

 

I have seen advice to only use one type of wax, and that is great advice, but I do think I would like to try 2 and see which I like better after a 50lb case of each. I will eventually settle with one after reading a lot, hearing from seasoned chandlers, and after using up a lot of wax! I have a few questions.

 

1. Does the C3 work better in summer temperatures? I have read GB 464 as having issues shipping in warmer weather and may not be the best for an outside venue either. If the waxes are comparable, I could see this alone convincing me to stick with C3 if it's better in heat.

 

2. I am using ECO, do any of you prefer CD wicks? If so, why?

 

3. Are CD the same size as ECO, as in, is CD 4 equal to ECO 4?

 

4. Have any of you tried wood wicks in these? If so, yay or nay?

 

5. I have noticed sometimes people saying you need a two week cure. My first candle, red hot cinnamon from candle science has a CRAZY hot throw. Craaaaaazy, at 9% FO load and a little UV inhib, and I only let it cure a day. Have you tested a candle at 24 hours and got light HT, and then tested one that cured two weeks and its an extreme difference?

 

 

Hi,

Im quite new to testing c3 and I have not yet mastered wicking , I will give you my views (not sure they will be right)

I am not too keen on eco wicks, I have never managed to get them to work properly, I always find them too big or too small and sometimes they have curled right over into the melt pool,  I prefer cd wicks but again I ve not mastered them just yet in c3.

 

I dont think the same size eco wicks relate to same size cd,  the eco wicks burn very hot to me and I think an eco 4 is more like a cd 8 or 10 .

 

I have found the longer I leave my candles the stronger they smell but I have also read that you need to leave them for 2 weeks to give an accurate wick test , you need to allow the wax to fully harden before you test.

 

Hope this might be of some help to you.

 

[kandlekrazy]

1. No straight soy wax ships well in heat (if that's what you mean by summer temps) but you can add votive wax to container wax to harden it a bit.  That being said, I have shipped C3 clamshell melts in pretty warm weather with no

issues, candles are trickier because as the glass heats up the wax will begin to melt and make a mess.  Packing candles in styrofoam before boxing helps. 

 

4. Wood wicks are tricky but really fun, I would suggest you find a regular wick first that works for you and then play with the wood wicks, search on wood wicks here and you will find some tips.

 

5.  Certain fo's will throw like crazy as soon as the candle sets and red hot cinnamon is one of those...very strong.  Most fo's and your soy wax will perform better if you allow it to cure at least a week, I personally like a min of 10 days.

 

2. & 3. I can't answer from experience, haven't tried ECO wicks in years, don't even remember why I decided against them, but probably sizes with my jars.

[shicks]

Edit: This is my first post on these forums ever!

 

 

Hi, I have just started the craft and made about 25 or so pounds of GB 464. I do like what I am making, and I have been getting colors I like. I have been mainly sticking with the 2oz status, 12 oz status, and 21 oz status. 2 oz uses ECO 4 (although it's possibly a wee bit too large), and the other jars I've been using Eco 14 with good results. I have more frosting and wet spots than I like, but from what I've read, I need to embrace it or use solid color jars as I am always going to dye my candles, period.

 

I have been wanting to test out other high quality waxes but from what I can tell, C3 seems the only real alternative. I was going to check out CB 135 but all I have found on here is people saying they can't get good hot throw, and if so, no thanks. CB 135 only using American farmers was a selling point to me, but if people can't get a nice HT, then I'm buying a subpar product and passing it off to my customers.

 

I have seen advice to only use one type of wax, and that is great advice, but I do think I would like to try 2 and see which I like better after a 50lb case of each. I will eventually settle with one after reading a lot, hearing from seasoned chandlers, and after using up a lot of wax! I have a few questions.

 

1. Does the C3 work better in summer temperatures? I have read GB 464 as having issues shipping in warmer weather and may not be the best for an outside venue either. If the waxes are comparable, I could see this alone convincing me to stick with C3 if it's better in heat.

 

2. I am using ECO, do any of you prefer CD wicks? If so, why?

 

3. Are CD the same size as ECO, as in, is CD 4 equal to ECO 4?

 

4. Have any of you tried wood wicks in these? If so, yay or nay?

 

5. I have noticed sometimes people saying you need a two week cure. My first candle, red hot cinnamon from candle science has a CRAZY hot throw. Craaaaaazy, at 9% FO load and a little UV inhib, and I only let it cure a day. Have you tested a candle at 24 hours and got light HT, and then tested one that cured two weeks and its an extreme difference?

I am getting excellent hot throw at ten percent in 135 however the candle does not cure as smooth on the top as c3 and I ship and feel it is too soft to ship in texas summer it is a cosmetic grade wax and can be used in massage candles it is much softer with a lower melt point but mine throw like crazy in a 24 hour cure i am still looking for a beautiful soy that throws well and can be shipped in texas heat

[Guest OldGlory]

Every fragrance oil will be different in your wax - don't assume that because the red hot cinnamon throws well in one day that any/all other fragrances will do the same.

 

And to reiterate, the actual burn will change after curing a few days. If you are testing the burn the same day or next day, you're not getting a true idea of how the candle will burn when it's in the hands of your customers. I would suggest a week of curing to test just the burn. Two weeks to test the fragrance throw.

 

No soy wax can hold up in the Texas heat. You can always use cold packs in shipments, but it can get pretty expensive. Also, only ship on Monday so boxes won't sit in a hot warehouse over a weekend.

[shicks]

Every fragrance oil will be different in your wax - don't assume that because the red hot cinnamon throws well in one day that any/all other fragrances will do the same.

 

And to reiterate, the actual burn will change after curing a few days. If you are testing the burn the same day or next day, you're not getting a true idea of how the candle will burn when it's in the hands of your customers. I would suggest a week of curing to test just the burn. Two weeks to test the fragrance throw.

 

No soy wax can hold up in the Texas heat. You can always use cold packs in shipments, but it can get pretty expensive. Also, only ship on Monday so boxes won't sit in a hot warehouse over a weekend.

Thanks for your response I am able to ship c3 with ten percent eco pb mix in August heat in texas no problem however I don't like when it burns and resets there is a gold ring in the burned wax I do put ten percent fo and now need to test without fo to see if the ring is from amount of fo or the wax mix but they ship great

About 6 percent in c3 I have an open concept living and I poured candles months ago and lit one this week and still nowhere near the throw of the ten percent blend I keep reading where people stick to 6 percent in c3 after a good cure and I wonder if they are testing in open concept the 6 percent throws fine in my master bedroom but not in open concept and so many homes are being built open am I crazy to not be smelling the 6 percent no matter how long I cure I can only smell when within a foot of a 6 percent candle and this was a very strong scent that throws right away within two days at ten percent however the higher percent may be leading to the gold ring I dislike a ten percent candle after a good cure fills my house