Candybee

Been working on my formulation for my eye gel. Have decided to go with Aristoflex for my gelling agent and Olivem 1000 as my emulsifier. I got them at Lotioncrafters and am waiting for them to arrive to test out. LC also suggests using 1-2% glyceryl stearate to further improve stability. The Olivem 1000 works with xanthum gum so I am assuming it should work with Aristoflex. Each ingredient has its own instructions so until I get used to each one I will write down a preparation guide for when I make the eye gel. I always make an instruction list but this one is more technical than any I have made so far. I think (hope) it will be a very nice soothing eye gel.

I am also adding some oils, peptides, hydrosols, and a few other ingredients that work on puffiness, dark circles, lines, etc that also help add a cooling, soothing effect,

I am still going to test out some of the other ingredients, particularly the other gums. I will do a test between the 3; xanthum, Aristoflex, and UltraPureGel (s-gum) to be sure of which would work the best and what I like.

Trying to formulate an emulsified eye gel has proved to be the most difficult of any emulsion making I have attempted so far. I mean in learning how to make one that is stable and has the right feel and texture to it. I still have to wait until my final ingredients get here so I hope taking the time to research gel emulsion ingredients and combinations has helped. I worry I still may not get this right.

Another ingredient I may add is hyaluronic acid 1% but am a bit confused about this one too. I see it in several eye serums, creams, and gels and know that it helps tissue retain moisture for hydration. But am concerned as some of my ingredients work to decrease puffiness in the eye area. So not sure it should go in a soothing eye gel. I know I would put it in an anti-aging eye cream. Anyway, I will have to test both with and without it to see which works best. 

How old is your daughter? Which soap making process does she want to learn? Does she know about different soap processes? The answers to these will determine any references. Thanks.

I'd recommend for a young beginner to start with melt & pour. Learning to make M&P soap is a good way to prepare yourself for more advanced soapmaking. Here is a great beginners book from Amazon:  Easy Homemade Melt & Pour Soaps

You can purchase kits or M&P bases from soap suppliers. Candles and Supplies carries lots of M&P bases: https://www.candlesandsupplies.com/soap-skincare/melt-pour-bases

22 hours ago, Rich said:

Yes

I'm going to try that

If you do, I hope you don't mind posting pics. I would love to see it!

New question: do I need to purchase deionized water to use in my eye gel? or any gels I make for that matter? I am just learning about ionic structures and it sounded like a good water to use that would not interfere with cationic/anionic emulsions. I still don't know enough yet and its kind of confusing to me at this point.

Why don't you make marble candles the traditional way? You don't dip them to marble them. You whip the wax. Put your wax in a bowl and whip it to make it fluffy. Next add 1,2 3, or even 4 drops of color in different areas around the top of the wax. The amount of color depends on your taste and candle project. Then start lightly folding the wax together a couple of turns or so to blend it but not completely so the color 'marbles' naturally. Then spoon the wax into the mold. Tap the mold rigorously against the countertop to eliminate any air pockets. Allow to cool completely before unmolding.

You know there is another use for that if you have the right molds. You could do the palm vybar as the outer candle shell with the candle inside for burning. All you would need to do is put a finished candle inside a slightly larger mold and pour around it. As the candle burns down you would want the outer 'shell' to stay intake. It would create a beautiful luminescent glowing candle as it burned as the glow of the candle goes through the shell.

45 minutes ago, NightLight said:

Glyceryl stearate is in two forms one total emulsifier he other co emulsifier.

This one is a very nice emulsifier though not totally natural

https://lotioncrafter.com/products/lotionpro-trade-165

 

You can use the other form to stabilize Olivem 1000 emulsifier.

Gums can be use to stabilize lotions and creams with a tiny amount OR they can be used to make gel products with water soluble ingredients. If you create lotions or creams and add either cute real or Cetyl those can help stabilize formulas, if you want to make sure they won’t separate you add minuscule  amounts of gums 

 

The more percentage of oil phase the greasier your lotion or cream will be. To make it fast absorbing keep oil phase around 20 per cent or under. The more you increase the amount of oils and butter the more emulsifier you will need.

Yes I have already found that in some of my lotions/creams I prefer to keep them under 20% to keep the oily greasy feeling out.

I've seen Olivem 1000 over at formulator's sample shop or maybe it was at making cosmetics.

RE the glyceryl stearate there were 2 listed at ITDF and I went with the 1st due to its description. It can be used as a self emulsifier and does not need a co-emulsifier as long as my formulation is mostly water. So I should be okay. I still have to test them out.

Anyway I just checked my order at ITDF and it hasn't been shipped yet. It has the glyceryl stearate in it along with the xanthum gum. So I have to wait for those to arrive before I can start testing.

4 hours ago, NightLight said:

S gum you an use alone with water based extracts, but no oils. If you mix oils into the mix you need emulsifier.

Naturemulse makes fluffy emulsions. When you make lotions and creams adding a tiny amount of gum will help keep them stable. TINY amount!

 

I don't think I want a 'fluffy' gel. But for my creams & lotions by stable do you mean a tiny amount of gum will keep them from seperating? So far I have not had any lotions or creams I made seperate but then I have been using recipes I found from ITDF and WSP. The recipes turned out awesome! But I like to tweak and sometimes sub out something to make a recipe my own.

Well, my eye gel emulsion will be an water & oil gel so besides a gel maker I need an emulsifier that will work with the gel. I also purchased some glyceryl stearate to test with it because the description said it works as a self emulsifier that can be used for lotions, creams and gels with high water content. It also says if used in low water formulations it needs a co-emulsifier. I am still tweaking my recipe but I expect it to be on the more than 50% water/aqueous. My oil phase is currently just under 40% but if need be I can change that to lower %.

On 10/15/2021 at 10:57 PM, Belinda said:

Thanks! I haven't ordered from Elements in a long time. I might have to try theirs.

Did you ever get the toasted marshmallow from Elements? I use a lot of their FOs and am curious. Might be a good scent to try out for my oatmeal soaps. Don't ask me why but some really sweet foodie scents smell awesome in soap!

5 hours ago, TallTayl said:

“I 

see WSP has BTMS 50 listed at behentrimonium methosulfate, cetyl alcohol, and butylene glycol. Sooooo, would that be 50% behentrimonium methosulfate? and the remaining 50% split between the cetyl alcolol and the butylene glycol? Those two could be split 50/50 or 25% each.“

no. The inci designation is in descending order of what is in the item, but does not mean equally. the glycol is likely 1% or less.

 

The btms products I’ve relied on for the last decade  btms uses Cetearyl alcohol (a combo of Cetyl and stearyl). The glycol is a new one to me also, as those I have always bought do not use it. Must be buying from a new manufacturer, or they redesigned the product due to market constraints. 
 

here’s a link to lotioncrafter with a similar inci.

https://lotioncrafter.com/products/lotioncrafter-btms-50

All the talk about quaternary condtioning agent (behenyl) and quaternary ammonium salt (behentrimonium methosulfate) just goes right over my head! Plus I don't see the behenyl listed in the INCI so it just raises more questions and confuses me rather than clarifies.

BTW--- I just got my Discovering Cosmetic Science and Skincare Decoded books in the mail today so will be checking those out this week.

Plus, this evening my ITDF supplies arrived and now I have some of their UltraPureGel (sclerotium gum) to play with. Someone mentions an "s" gum being better than xanthum. Is this the one? Well, I have it now so I can test it out. I think I need a co-emulsifier with it and I got some their NatureMulse (glyceryl stearate and cetearyl alcohol, and sodium stearoyl lactolate Ecocert) to play with too. They do suggest using UltraPureGel or xanthum gum as part of the system for a balanced and stable emulsion. That's why I got those those to test out.

I keep tiny testing spatulas for my creams and open one jar only for testing. The rest I keep sealed so no one can open the cream jars. I have sample lotion testers for each lotion and occasionally I see a customer trying to open one that isn't a tester. I actually jump in and ask them to use the tester. You have to be vigilant when you do craft shows and markets. I don't blame people for wanting to check something out before they buy and that's why I make testers when I can.

3 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

For faire days I put a sniffie set of the 16 flavors for that weekend out. And brought the “clean” ones behind the service area. Lip balm was an easily pilfered item-and health risk 😬🤢

 

People would sometimes steal the sniffies. 🤮🤮🤮🤮

 

 

Boggles the mind, right?!!!! Especially during a pandemic why would you want to put your lips on something others have. 

RE OP's original question on signage on candle sniffing I have to agree with TT. Customers are gonna do it anyway. I see people put the noses on bars of soap all the time so much so they end up with flakes of soap on their nose. It gets a giggle out of me and I tell them they have soap on their nose.

I don't think its rude to safeguard your products by putting out a sign. I cannot however speak for everyone as everyone has their own idea of what is rude. It will not bother some while others will be turned off and perhaps even challenge or speak against it. So the question is, are you prepared for any negative feedback you may encounter. If you have that kind of moxie to stand up to it and defend your position and you want to do it then do. If you are easily cowed, go chicken, or run away screaming like a scared rabbit then don't.

Personally I don't see a problem with people smelling my candles or my soap for that matter. Yes I think its gross some put their noses right on it. 

So there are things you can do to avoid it. 

Seal and products you absolutely do not want customers touching. For example I seal cosmetics and some like lotions or sprays I have sample bottles customers can try out.

Put out a sign that says ask for help if you want a sample. Put it in a prominent place and be sure to be at the ready with the sample if the customer asks.

TT I have people ask from time to time if I have sample lip balms they can see/smell. I simply tell them that they are sealed for sanitation purposes. That always stops people cold. They nod and don't ask anymore about it.  I do tell them that I use them and describe the flavors to them so they have an idea of what they taste, smell like. I tell them which is my favorite, etc. They tend to continue to look at the lip balms and eventually buy what they want still sealed! No problem. I started doing this some time ago as I was amazed at how people wanted to sample a lip balm. Ick!

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

BTMS-50 is 50 % behentrimonium methosulfate.  Btms25 is 25% behentrimonium methosulfate. I use the btms225 from Rita Corp which is local to me, which has 22.5% behentrimonium methosulfate,  

 

the difference between 50 and 25 is pretty noticeable, but from 25 down to 22.5 not so much.
 

btms 25, 50, etc needs other ingredients to “pay out” product to hair in a solid bar form. Nobody wants to stand in the shower rubbing a hard waxy feeling bar over and over to get some benefit to the hair.  I guess this is why so many new formulators use butters.  It keeps the bar hard while releasing a good deal more oil and emulsifier to hair so people feel like it “works”.

 

 

I see WSP has BTMS 50 listed at behentrimonium methosulfate, cetyl alcohol, and butylene glycol. Sooooo, would that be 50% behentrimonium methosulfate? and the remaining 50% split between the cetyl alcolol and the butylene glycol? Those two could be split 50/50 or 25% each.

I also see WSP has BTMS 25 listed as cetearyl alcohol and behentrimonium methosulfate. So would the cetearyl alcohol be 75% and the behentrimonium methosulfate be 25%?

I had not realized til now that the 50 uses cetyl alcohol and the 25 is cetearyl alcohol. So thats another difference. Also, the 25 has cetearyl alcohol listed first so that's why I thought it may be at 75% as the behntrimonium methosulfate is at 25%? Am I right?

BTW-- my BTMS 25 hasn't arrived yet so I haven't tried it yet.

But I do remember in my research some formulators saying that BTMS 25 won't work in the conditioner bars. Plus something else about having to have a good solvent? for the conditioner to wash out? I don't think they meant water. But something to help rinse out the residues so your hair doesn't get greasy, heavy. Or maybe I am mixing that up with the shampoo bar recipe. Sigh...

49 minutes ago, NightLight said:

Conditioner bars BTMS is kind of gold standard, but you don’t have to add all the other ingredients. Pare down.

I personally can’t do BTMS conditioner bars with all the added butters. Recipe for weighted down hair.

Shampoo bars experiment. Some people like a lot of extra this and that. I like the simple but that’s me. You have to test and see how you like the feel in hair. Butylene glycol is very handy. Sodium lactate handy. Experiment. Take one recipe and try very small batch to test as ingredients can get speedy. I would get a small hand mixer from AMZN to do test batches. You might want to get scale that measure tiny amounts. I got mine from lotioncrafter handy when working with additives in teeny amounts BUT you won’t waste materials. Some of your formulas will take a number of tries, I can often do ten tries for a formula to fine tune it.

Great advice! I had already just purchased a small scale from Amazon along with a small set of beakers and a small hand held frother. This way I can measure and weigh out small amounts for testing. I already have another small combo battery operated hand blender with several attachments for mixing, blending, etc., and some small spatulas for mixing. So I think I am set for testing out small batches.

Yes it was the conditioner bars that called for a high amount of BTMS 50. I think after researching and reading about them I may hold off and do a regular hair conditioner lotion instead. I did not like the sound of the conditioner bars making my hair heavy and/or greasy or having to rinse with apple cider vinegar after. Although, using one occasionally could be a good conditioning treatment. Anyway, instead I want to focus on making my own shampoo bars and liquid hair  conditioner lotion.

But first I want to experiment with making a soothing eye gel. Its something I really need as I get tired itchy eyes and the gel is really soothing. I dad been working on some eye creams and although they are nice are not the same as a good soothing eye gel.

You know there are FOs that smell like books or the library. Does it have to be ink? I've never come across that one before.

If I were trying to make an ink scent I would go with a blend of something bitter/tart with something sweet like tart lime and sweet cherry. Add an earthy note like oakmoss or patchouli to give it depth. Or maybe add the library/book scent to make a paper & ink scent.

I'm trying to think of what has a bitter note and nothing comes to mind at the moment. But to me ink has a blend of notes that are both sweet, dry, earthy, water, with a hint of bitter. 

Printing ink is made with soot, turpentine, and walnut oil. I tried looking up india ink but don't get any descriptions of scent notes.

Welcome Brooklynsunshine from NYC! and welcome to your new addiction!

I don't have a 65 lb melter but it is a smaller commercial melter I've had for over 15 yrs now. Being smaller its easier for me to clean out but I only do so when it runs out of wax and I only clean it out using paper towels.

For your larger melter can you turn it on the night before your candle making days to heat up your wax overnight instead of leaving it on 24/7? That's what I would do.

4 hours ago, NightLight said:

It really depends on your emulsifier and other ingredients. Some emulsifiers do creat light and fluffy, some are robust and make thick emulsions, and then you can combine emulsifiers, and coemulsifiers and thickeners. It’s good to get lots of samples and find your favorite emulsifiers and thickeners then you will have knowledge how to create the feel you want. Now throw in procedure. Read the tech tips on using emulsifiers they are good for troubleshooting.

Preservatives can mess you up, they can break emulsions. A good one to use when tinkering around is germall - it’s very easy to use and never had one cream or lotion go bad. The usage rate is low too.

Ewax and BTMS are popular, but there are other ones that are better. You can combine Ewax and BTMS also.

This past year I have been working with e-waxes and BTMS from WSP. I have both BTMS 25 & 50, e-waxes; traditional, conditioning plus, and soft & silky. They are my beginning foray into emulsions and helped open up that world of cosmetic emulsions. I am just a beginner but already see the possibilities and that is why I want to know more.

This may sound lame but another reason I want to know more is because one recipe, a shampoo bar or was it a conditioning bar? Anyway, it called for BTMS 50 at a very high % of the recipe which would make my shampoo bars outrageously expensive. I perused some formulators websites, blogs, and forums to find out why. I also wanted to know if I could make a more cost effective substitute. I thought, the only ingredient missing between BTMS 25 & 50 is the butylene glycol and wondered why can't I just use BTMS 25 and add the butylene glycol myself? So the more I delved into finding the answer the more I started learning about how some ingredients work together while other combinations change the entire formulation. 

So I don't just want to learn about the emulsions I also need to know enough to make cost effective substitutions if you kwim. 

TT & NightLight, you both have given me a lot of ingredient ideas and I want to thank you for them. I am at the point I just need to start trying out gels to see what I like or which might work for my formulation. That should take me a while. I think the next step then is to try emulsifiers with the selected gel(s) to see which/what one(s) are compatible. From there I have a number of additives I want to use. If I have my emulsified gel system I want to use I still have to see which additives will work without breaking it down or changing it and then I still have to test out a preservative. I can see this will be a great exercise in learning about cosmetic gel making.

Will probably post my efforts as I go. It would be nice to have a place to log my results and findings as I develop it. 

BTW-- I recently purchased a couple of books on the science of making cosmetics. It was just not enough for me to make a simple whipped body butter. When I went from whipped body butter to an emulsified body butter it just opened up a whole new world for me and I realized I really wanted to understand the science of how different ingredients work together in cosmetics. I found emulsions very intriguing but complex as you have cold processed and heating process, co-emulsifiers and then you had to know a bit of their molecular structure and polarity properties to mix ingredients efficiently so emulsions stay emulsified and don't cancel out the properties you want in your formula, etc. It just seems a bit overwhelming to me at the moment. Even though I have been making emulsified lotions, creams, and body butters for the past year I find the more I learn the less I know about the science of making a good emulsion. I also have a lot of questions as my emulsions can be anywhere from creamy to lotiony, fluffy like marshmallow fluff that deflates or is way too light and floofy to heavy and thick or even a bit watery. That is why I would love to have a good basic knowledge of how it works so I can create the stable emulsions I want. 

I tend to get pretty wordy so I will stop here.

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

The name of the now closed supplier of pemulen escapes me at the moment. I have not looked for more since the original shipment, but pemulen TR-1 and Tar-2 products made me forever hate the feel of older style emulsifiers that feel tacky, sticky, and waxy. 

I did find a pemulen product at essential ingredients; pemulen 1621 & 1622. But I think that website is for large manufacturers as you have to call for samples and I did not see purchase listings so you can't simply buy something online there. But I'm glad I found the website as they have some interesting information and a formulary of downloadable formulations on cosmetics to cleaners and lots more.

Hmmmm.... just found it listed on Amazon but it was unavailable. Maybe that's why its not showing up at making cosmetics. Must be OOS. Been having a little bit of trouble getting ingredients these past few weeks due to the shortages.

Just got some packages delivered a few minutes ago. Maybe my ITDF ultra-gel has arrived....

3 hours ago, NightLight said:

Try Gelmaker EMU liquid is easier than powder. Very easy to use and you can whip up your dream gel cream with it.

You can do cold process with distilled water and ingredients. A little goes a long way so keep percentage low under 3 per cent. More like 1-2 percent.

 

INCI Name: Sodium acrylate / sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate copolymer, isohexadecane, polysorbate 80

Benefits:

- Excellent thickener by forming gels over a wide ph range (4-12)
- Emulsifies all kinds of oily phases (up to 40%) including silicones and vegetable oils without the addition of a conventional emulsifier
- Able to produce cold emulsions
- Stabilizes emulsions and maintains the viscosity of a formula
- Gives light and pleasant texture to spread on skin

Use: Emulsions: 0.5-2%. Can be added into fat or water phase, or at the end of emulsification. Needs good mixing with hand mixer to get smooth creams. Gel creams: 1-5%. When using over 3% use at least 12% oils for best performance. For external use only.

Applications: Gel-creams, emulsion-gels, cold emulsions, lotions, creams, skin-whitening /self-tanning products, sun care & baby care products, mascara, foundations.

Country of Origin: France

Raw material source: Sodiumacrylate, sorbitol, vegetable oils, petroleum derivatives

Manufacture: The copolymer is made by polymerization of sodiumacrylate and sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate monomers. Isohexadecane is made in a multi-step process to form a branched C16 hydrocarbon from petroleum derivatives. Polysorbate 80 is obtained by esterification of sorbitol with one or three molecules of a fatty acid including stearic, lauric, oleic, and palmitic acid.

Animal Testing: Not animal tested

GMO: GMO free but not certified

Vegan: Does not contain animal-derived components

I was reading about gel maker on making cosmetics and they had 3. But I didn't see the gel maker EMU. The ones I looked at were powders; gel maker PH, powder, and style. Plus the INCI is not the same as what you have posted here. So where do you find the gel maker EMU?

12 hours ago, NightLight said:

Each material has a different feel and you have to test. Also each play well with some ingredients but not others.

Yes. I have been testing some formulations for an eye cream and decided I did not want an eye cream or serum after all. I used to buy an eye gel from L'oreal that I really love but would rather learn how to make my own.