calan

It seems odd that one of the oldest and most popular fragrances of all time is so hard to duplicate satisfactorily (or even get close to)... at least for me. 

Does anyone make a nice, strong apple cinnamon FO?

I've tried Flaming, Lone Star, and Nature's Garden, and I don't really like any of them. They smell ok at first, but just don't throw well and seem to fade quickly. I'd like something like the Glade air freshner and warmer scents.

On a related note, how about a good strong straight-up apple scent that I could roll my own with?

3 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Did anyone else pour a bunch of palm candles after reading this thread?
 

LOL 

I made sure to stock up before starting it, just in case. 

4 minutes ago, Candybee said:

 

Right now I am using CSN9's on 12oz jars. If you are wicking jelly jars or similar size I would go with the 7. Make sure you do your test burn all the way to the very end of the candle. With palm you always want to test with the smallest possible wick for the jar to get the best burn. You will get a much better hot throw and it will burn slower to. A plus that! Same thing with FO. Whatever you think is the best amount, try a smaller %. Example, if you are currently using 6% fragrance oil load go down to 3-5%. Test each % as the lesser amount will actually give you a better throw. I am using 5% for the majority and 3-4% on stronger oils like pines. With palm, less is always more.

In the 9 oz straight-sided jars, I usually get a just a little wax left on the sides at the bottom with CSN 9's, and more with 7's. But it depends on the FO, and as I mentioned up there ^, the wicks seem to be a little inconsistent sometimes. I've just been mixing 5% across the board on all FO's.  

1 hour ago, BusyBee said:

Have you tried adding oils or partially hydrogenated vegetable oils?  It is much easier than blending different waxes, and you will be surprised with the results.  It can change total characteristics of crappy Pre-blended waxes that we are getting from candle suppliers.  

No, but I'm always willing to try a proven recipe if one falls into my lap.    

10 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Do you find palm containers generally burn faster than other waxes?

10 hours ago, bfroberts said:

Most definitely.  

They do seem to burn faster for me also, especially if I'm stuck with the hotter CSN 9 wick because the CSN 7 is leaving too much wax.

But I'm hoping that will just lead to people needing to buy another beautiful palm candle sooner than later. 

****

I really wish there more good wicks available. Besides the availability issues with CSN's now, I've noticed a lack of consistency (quality control?) with them. I've had CSN7's that burn almost identically to CSN9's in two candles poured from the same pitcher, at the same time, into the same jars. And looking at the wicks in the bags, there seems to be variations in the wick diameters, so that some of them could be either CSN7 or CSN9.

Fortunately, either one seems to work fine in my jars with most FO's. It's just a matter of a little more wax being left or not. And if there is some wax left, it's really simple to just chip it out of the jar and dump it into a melter. It just breaks up and falls away from the jar, leaving almost perfectly clean glass. A quick wipe with a paper towel and the jar could be reused as is, although I do wash them with soapy water before reuse.

As an example of how clean it comes out of the jar...I've cored several test candles to swap wicks. I just core around the wick, dump out the broken up wax, and then use a flat-tip screwdriver to reach in and peel the wick sticker free. I can then reach into the hole with a paper towel (or even just the tip of my finger) and wipe away the wax at the bottom...and a new wick sticker will stick just as good as when the jar is fresh out of the dishwasher.

It's a very unique wax.

1 hour ago, Candybee said:

I haven't noticed any difference when used as directed. I use CSN wicks so if you are using something different you may have a different experience than me.

I'm using CSN 7's or 9's, in 9 oz straight-sided jars, and 8 oz smooth sided mason jars.

Thanks!

40 minutes ago, moonshine said:

if your ever in need of CSN 11 let me know I have thousands I purchased direct because CS did not carry that size 

Have fun with it and somewhere in here is a thread from Candybee who uses palm on the flip method to prevent the air pockets that its notorious for...that was another issue I had mainly out of limited experience with the wax and that can cause some serious wick flares which can get very scary 

It seems that I always need a CSN 8. I use mostly 7's and 9's, and in a few FO's it seems that a CSN 8 would come in handy. 

The flip is super easy and not even a second thought now. I was just intimidated by the thought of it at first, and it just took a minute for my brain to come around to the idea of flipping a jar full of hot wax upside down.  lol  

@TallTayl

Well, you've seen and responded to my posts since I first found this forum, so I'm sure you know a little of how I got here.  (and it's greatly appreciated BTW). 

I went through the whole "Jar flip? WTH? I have to turn a jar of hot wax upside down?", etc... tested dozens of candles to my anal-rententive extremes, and recently saw the info about discontinued CSN wicks which made certain parts of my body pucker up a little (which BTW, they seem to have plenty in stock right now...I just bought a couple years worth).

At least for me, in 9 oz straight-sided jars and the small 8 oz mason jars, this wax is excellent and just plain hard to screw up. I made a couple of 16 oz salsa jar test candles a week or so ago when I couldn't find any more 9 oz jars, and even the first blind stab at a larger wick size workd fairly well on those too. As far as HT, I haven't found anything that throws differently in 2322 than any of the other waxes I tried. In fact, several FO's that I couldn't throw in other waxes even if I used a full wind-up while it was still in the bottle, seemed to throw better in the 2322 at 5%.

Maybe I'm still just too new at this, or maybe I'm lucky enough to not have an established customer base with expectations.

Ok... the title is obviously a little tongue-in-cheek, but there is a small amount of seriousness in the question.   

I've only been doing this a couple years or so, and still have a TON to learn, but seriously... this wax is so easy and consistent (my current mis-labeled boxes of wax non-withstanding). I started out playing with various types of soy wax (which was an endless nightmare), followed by 3 or 4 of the most loved parafins, and continuing with various pre-blended parasoys and then trying my own blends. Basically over a year of what added up to a time-consuming, expensive, dissapointing, lackluster mess.

And then I tried plain old IGI 2322A Glass Glow palm.

Beautiful candles, fairly easy to wick (assuming you can live with one or two CSN wicks in your particular jar/FO), easy to mix and pour, consistent, cheaper than most waxes, easier tool clean up (for me at least), simple to remove leftover wax from a jar and toss in a melter (and left with a clean jar after a simple wipe with a paper towel), as good or better scent throw than other waxes at less FO %, and it has that whole "all-natural/organic/non-petroleum" tag attached to it.... and it seems to be fairly unique and exotic, at least around here.

So why doesn't everyone jump all over GG palm?

In other words... what is the massive, nightmarish brick wall ahead of me that I'm not seeing yet?   

@Candybee

I know it's an old thread, but....

How much does the UV inhibitor change the burn characteristics in GG Palm? Do you have to adjust your wicking for it?

 

On 10/22/2020 at 2:15 PM, bfroberts said:

...but since I'm always annoyed about something anyway, I took a look at my boxes to see if I should be annoyed about that too. 

LOL

1 hour ago, BusyBee said:

Is the off-center caused by the wick curling?  TallTayl has the solution to solve that problem.  According to TallTayl, wick has pattern that shows direction of the wick that is going to curl. 

57 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

The curling wicks lean toward the point of the braid. Since Palm Wax wicks are pretty limited, most at least are a flat braid. The braid on one side of the flat wick is a stack of "V" while the opposite side has little upside down "V".  If you can gently twist the wicks before pouring the lava hot wax you may be able to direct the flame around the jar.  When twisting don't make the mistake I did and hold the tab.  That made the twist happen at a useless point right at the top of the tab neck.  Hold the whole length of the wick and visually check that the twist is along the whole length fairly evenly.

It's usually a a little bit of both. I'm pretty anal about getting the wick centered in the jar and keeping it that way (centering tool when placing, centering tabs at top), but it seems to only take a tiny amount off-center to cause an uneven burn in palm. I am using the CSN wicks, and I can't seem to predict the curl with them (There isn't much, but as mentioned, it doesn't seem to take much).

I'm still experimenting with twisting the wicks. The problem I was initially having was that you need to twist them at lest two full turns to be effective, but that puts stress on the wick sticker and tab. If the jars are preheated, the tab wants to pull away, etc etc. I'm currently working on a process where I can warm the jars less and still get good glass adhesion and crystalization, while still allowing for a full two or even three complete turns of the wick. I'm burning a couple of test candles tonight using that method, so we'll see how well it works.

The other option is to use a hotter wick that makes them burn more like a traditional candle with a full melt pool earlier in the burn. The melt pool is even and the temperature more uniform, but the candle is warmer over-all. Thinking about that trade-off is what prompted this thread.

43 minutes ago, BusyBee said:

But why do we see glass candle containers blowing up?  It is due to crazy dancing flame.  Some bad designed candle’s flame is constantly hitting the wall or getting too close to the wall.  Top and outer part of a flame is close to 1,400F.  There is no container that will withstand the direct contact with flame.  So, if you design a safe candle using dish washer safe containers, you don’t have to worry about temperature rating.  However, you might want to do thermal shock test at home.  You will find how to do that test in following link.  

https://eca-candles.com/pdf/WorldCandleCongress/ASTM Standards and the Candle Industry - Becker Moss.pdf

 

My biggest concern/issue is the occasional slightly off-center wick in palm. I've found that it doesn't take much to get heat concentration on one side of the jar and melting the "shell", causing considerably more heat in that one area.

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

If you make your candles to not exceed 175*F at any point during the burn to follow the ASTM guidelines, you should have a wide variety of options.

 

1 hour ago, NightLight said:

Are you doing palm or beeswax that require hot wicks? Fillmore might be able to help. Most jars used for canning have to be able super hot temps to process for sealing and sterilization.

I'm using palm in those jars, usually with CSN 7 or CSN 9 wicks. I check my jar temps with both a quick hand grab () and a candy thermometer. My thermal gun usually can't get a lock for a reliable reading...not that I trust it to be all that reliable if it could. 

I've had a couple get too hot to hold, but not "burn off your flesh" hot. I think I'm ok on steady temperature, but I sometimes worry about shock fractures due to rapid cooling, etc.

I'm just overly cautious sometimes, and being an engineer I like to have all my i's dotted and t's crossed. z
 

I browsed around Fillmore's site last night but didn't find anything.  I'll give it another shot after work or maybe try to contact them directly.

@TallTayl  ???

14 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Would the oven be quicker? 

It's actually a lot easier and less messy (for me anyway) to just break up the wax with a wick coring tool and dump it out. Doesn't take long at all. 

I'm more worried about how much it will ruin the scent to remelt the wax to pour it into molds for melts.

57 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

And it looks like you have quite the collection....LOL

Unfortunately 

Does anyone have a link to max temperature ratings for the most common glass candle jars? Specifically, I need them for 9 oz straight-sided jars (Lone Star or Flaming), and the 8 oz smooth-sided Anchor Hocking mason jars.

I can't find a single vendor that list the temperature ratings, and Google isn't being much help tonight. 

As easy as it is to get palm out of a jar and clean them up (especially since these are already pulling away from the glass)...I may just dig it out, melt it, and (maybe) add a little more FO and make melts out of them. Then re-pour the candles when I get the replacement glass glow. Hopefully I won't lose much scent if I get the wax just hot enough to pour into molds.

Thoughts?

@bfroberts - 

I'm apparently already making pillar candles...I'm just doing it in jars. 

34 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

Nice.  I saw this post the other day and thought it looked like feather palm too.  For what it's worth, I use feather palm for pillar candles. It's my favorite of the palm waxes actually.  It's super easy to work with....just in case you want to start a new project

One thing at a time. It's been a year and a half and probably $1000 invested so far, and I still can't get a consistent container candle that I like.  LOL

I've decided that only large machines and masochists make candles. 

I spent some time on the phone with Lone Star this morning, and sent them pics. They confirmed that I did indeed somehow get Feather Palm instead of the Glass Glow on the order back in March. Apparently someone mislabelled the boxes when they made up the 10 lb bags..

Much to their credit, they were extremely helpful and are making it right.

Definitely not GG palm, at least not the same stuff as I got last time. Every candle I've tested is burning too hot, and one of them has wax bleeding down the side where it has pulled away from the jar a little.

I'm going to have to tear down a dozen 9 oz candles and rewick them with a CSN7 instead of CSN9. Grrrrrrrrrrr.  😣

This wax also seems to solidify faster, even though I'm still letting them cool in my oven just like I always have. I may have actually missed my flip on a couple, because they were almost solid in the middle much earlier than they used to be.

Here is a pic of two Dragon's Blood candles. Same FO, same dye, same mixing, pouring, and cooling temps.