ShineOn

49 minutes ago, Clear Black said:

For anyone interested, why not test with pure Coconut oil instead? Its a matter of choice sure, but do you really know the exact blend %'s of what is in Coconut 83 wax? The description reads, "Our Coconut 83 wax is an all natural container blend. This wax is predominately coconut blended with vegetable and soy waxes." But at what % are those additives at? And what exactly are they? How can you possibly test not knowing exactly what all ingredients are and how much? Just a thought..and just my 2 cents worth on this topic thats all.

 

I asked those questions to myself and decided to go the route of just Coconut 92 oil. I needed to think of the end game of buying in bulk as well. The lowest I see Co83 selling for is ~$1.70/lb. I can get Co92 for lower than ~$1.40/lb. Thats a decent savings when buying 500+lbs, plus the added benefit of knowing its Coconut oil with no vegetable or soy based additives. This way my tests are more on point and I can know what the final formula consists of.

 

Anyways, enough rambling lol. I'm sure you folks are doing great in your tests, it just made me wonder why I am the only one it seems testing straight Coconut oil. Maybe I shouldnt be? I dunno..I need my coffee

 

Link to BA's Co92 for anyone wanting a look: https://www.bulkapothecary.com/coconut-oil-92-degree/

Interesting, I haven't thought of that. How are your tests coming out and what percentage of soy to coconut oil are you using? 

12 hours ago, Kerven said:

Even after it cooled, it was noticably softer than Candlewic's coconut/apricot. Looks like I'll need to test the coconut83 to see if it works at the same ratios I've been using. Might need to add a blend of stearic and beeswax. It's also noticably darker than Candlewic's, which is pure white like shortening.

 

Is it me or does coconut83 have an odd odor? It almost smells rancid or similar to old fryer oil... maybe even fried takeout eggrolls. I'm a little concerned that the scent may carry over to the finished candle.

 

If I have the time, I'll whip up a few testers tomorrow. 50/50 (coconut, soy) and maybe a blend including stearic and beeswax. I'm thinking the beeswax will do better in a high coconut blend but I'm curious to see how a higher percentage (~10-15%) of stearic will do in the soy to offset the soy issues. Wicks will be ECO 4 and ECO 6. Maybe ECO 8, depending on how much beeswax and/or stearic are in the second blend. Not sure about FO's.

I have to agree their wax is very soft and has an odd scent that I can't really pick up on what it is, but after pouring the FO it goes away. Does make me wonder what they're putting in it... I haven't tried using stearic with this wax maybe that will help with all the tunneling I was experiencing no matter how high I wixed. I think Coconut wax is definitely more tricky to test than soy. 

On 10/17/2017 at 2:53 PM, Kerven said:

@ShineOn Preheating is too much of a hassle for me. I'd have to either heat jars one-by-one with a heat gun while my wax cools too much or try carrying a hot tray of jars from the kitchen to my work area... without shattering anything. Come to think of it, I'm not certain my oven goes below 170F. I guess I could cut it off and then put the glass in but that would slow my process down quite a bit.

 

Could it be possible that pouring at a lower temperature may have caused the coconut and stearic to cool too fast around the wick and crack internally?

 

Anyone else notice that Candlewic's coconut/apricot blend is sold out? I had to order coconut83 from California Candle Supply.

I think the hotter the pour the less chances of it developing wet spots and cracks. What temperature are you pouring at? 

How do you like Cal candle supply's wax vs. candlewics wax?

On 10/13/2017 at 7:48 AM, Kerven said:

@ShineOnI'm having issues with wet spots as well. The coconut wax may be more suited to hot pouring around 180F. Commercial production often uses a hot pour with fans from the bottom and sides for a quick cool down. That might be worth trying - a quick cool down. I've been using felt sleeves I made for insulating soy candles as they cool, so that may be why I'm seeing a few little spots the day after - slower cooling. Well, that, and I'm using thick jars that aren't preheated, which causes the wax to instantly solidify on contact. Although, my testers, which have been sitting in a room that can frequently change five degrees in either direction, now have massive wet spots. They seem to be sensitive to changes in room temperatures, moreso than pure soy candles. For a more predictable wax that doesn't frost, isn't paraffin, has a good hot throw, doesn't wash out colors, and is easier to wick... I think I can overlook the wet spots. Now, to find a reasonably affordable supplier of frosted or darkly colored jars.

 

@ComfortandJoyI wish I could remember where but I did read something a while back (a year or two) about the GB soys not blending well with beeswax. A coconut/beeswax blend sounds tempting... the cost of a coconut/beeswax candle doesn't. Stearyl alcohol and coconut wax might work, but I imagine that's going to be more costly than a stearic acid blend. If you do try a coconut and stearic blend, please post about it! I'm very curious to read how that turns out.

 

Have you tried warming the jars? When I was using CB Advanced  I did get a lot of wet spots, but warming the jars made a huge difference. I would say only 10% of candles ended up developing wet spots. 

On 10/11/2017 at 1:58 PM, ComfortandJoy said:

 

I have not yet found the right balance yet unfortunately. I ditched the beeswax for now and I'm currently doing coconut wax and soy blends at 50:50 and 55:45 coconut to soy.  I'm using gb 444

 

Yes, the voluspa candles are lovely! Mine burns well and has a nice cold and hot throw.  I just wonder how the big guys can ship these soft candles in summer heat.

The shipping of Voluspa candles has me stumped, it's very surprising that they don't melt. I wonder if they use any additives.

Have you had a chance to test your burn with 5% of stearic?

On 10/2/2017 at 9:43 AM, Kerven said:

Good work!

That blend, assuming the hot throw wasn't impacted too much, should be a decent substitution until finding a non-soy blend. That is, if you're aiming to eventually go soy-free.

Are you hot pouring? Are there wet spots? The 50/50 blend is giving me slight hang up and a lot of shrinkage after burning.

 

I was surprised that the hot throw was actually pretty good. I'm am getting wet spots on some candles but they're minimal. I'm currently pouring the candles at 175 degrees anything lower than that gives makes the wet spot issue worse. No Shrinakge So far. I think the more soy you add the more likely it will cause shrinking after burning. 

On 10/1/2017 at 9:47 AM, Moonstar said:

Thanks for the update , this is 

encouraging! Any issues with HT 

at 40% Refresh my memory , you purchased your coconut wax blend at C & S ??? Your using CD wicks ?

thanks again for the update !

Very helpful 👍🏻

 

HT and CT are perfect with this blend. I purchased the wax at Cal candle supply. CD wicks did not work for me, Eco's worked well.

Okay so update. When mixing the coconut wax with 40% of soy 464 it burns beautifully. No tall flames, no mushrooming, just an overall nice clean burn! 

18 hours ago, Kerven said:

@MoonstarThe sparkle light from Peak was a pain on its own. Even with holes poked and topping off, I still got huge cavernous spots in the center of the candle. Probably due to my inexperience with palm.

I wasn't able to find my notes for the testing but I did find one partially burned candle leftover. The label says 80/20, soy/palm, 6% FO, CS lavender dye chip, and ECO 10. There were small air pockets around the melt pool, so I lit it again to see what would happen. More air pockets, some tunneling, and the hang up from before wouldn't melt. Now, I know why I saved it: a reminder to not do that again. If I do give it another try, I'd use a 90/10 blend and something other than sparkle light palm.

 

@ShineOnThe jars I used for the coconut/soy testing were 2.5".

 

(I'm having a newbie moment.)

I haven't tried a larger jar yet, but the idea makes me curious. I haven't thought of this before. If the larger sizes of wicks are producing undesirable flames, does it matter what size the jar is? If an ECO 2 in a 2.5" jar produces an ideal flame, yet larger sizes in the same jar do not, then wouldn't using a larger size in a larger jar produce undesirable flames... especially if the problems noted are happening before a complete melt pool? Wouldn't that be a quality of the wax - that only a particular wick works in it - and not so much the size of the jar? Doesn't the size of the jar only matter when considering melt pool formation?

I've gone and confused myself again.

I think I'm going to try a larger jar tomorrow to see what happens. I'm hoping I don't have to trial a variety of wick styles again...

 

 

Great point Kerven! If the candle wick is producing a large flame it's most likely the wax quality since the wick itself shouldn't change it's own burning quality in different jars, because it should only affect the melt pool size. I didn't think of this before!

Maybe the wax from California Candle Supply's is just not good on its own, not is it good when you only add a small amount of soy. Even though they told me their wax should work without blending, I'm finding that impossible. 

3 hours ago, Kerven said:

@ShineOn Where 100% coconut/apricot was a bit too much for the smallest ECO size I could get, the 75/25 blend gave me a decent burn with the same size (ECO 2). Upping the soy to a 50/50 blend allowed me to move up to ECO 4 and 6 for a good burn. I used different scents for each blend so I can't make a comparison on hot throw. The cold throw in the 50/50 blend with CS Pumpkin Caramel Crunch had me wondering if I needed to light a candle at all.

The 70/30 and 60/40 are good starting points. I think you'll have better results with those. Keep us updated.

 

@Moonstar For me, Candlewic's coconut/apricot blend on its own was rapidly consumed in comparison to 464. I don't know if it was due to the styles of wick used (CD and ECO) or if it was a property of the wax. The wicks were burning very hot. It seems the other coconut waxes are more slowly consumed.

Those ribbon wicks do look cool. I think Northwood suggests using those with their coconut wax. I'd have to see one in action before giving them a try. The thought of a larger, wider flame in coconut wax makes me a little anxious.

That pillar/tart blend is a bit pricey... a little too pricey for my tarts.

 

@pcbrookI've been using Candle Science's liquid dyes to color mine. The coconut/apricot blend is quite white on its own, slightly translucent, and doesn't frost so it holds colors well. If I'm working with red dye, I know I'm not as likely to end up with pink as I would with soy.

 

Speaking of palm wax, I haven't tried that yet. I did soy and palm (sparkle light), and that was... frustrating. Apparently, I needed to poke relief holes. Hot throw was amazing, however. Haven't touched it since. Anyone have any success blending the two?

Whats the diameter of your jars? Another one of my problems with this wax is that I won't achieve a full melt pool after a 3-4 hours. I made a few test batches with higher amount of soy this morning and I will be testing them soon.

9 hours ago, pcbrook said:

Have you been dying your coconut candles?  If so, what kind of dye do you use?

I did dye them once and I used the dye blocks from Candle science. I think they color really nicely and I didn't get any frosting.

On 9/25/2017 at 8:43 PM, ComfortandJoy said:

 

ShineOn, I am currently trying gb444 at 25% and 40% in  test batches.  I'm hoping to increase firmness and give the wax more body. 

How's the 25% of 444 working? 

1 hour ago, Moonstar said:

Interesting topic. Earlier I was looking at the Northwoods site + was browsing the coconut wax blend. The reviews were all very positive + some even commented that the

wood wicks that they sell also worked great  hmmmm  ???? Theres also a wax on there thats for tarts but it seems pricey ??? a 10b sample bag $34.95... Has anyone tried 

this one ? American soy has a votive/tart blend too but from what I recall it was significantly cheaper for 10lbs that the one from backwood. my head starts spinning on 

what to try. I was looking at CSB 3022 from Connies Candles + was thinking of mixing some paraffin or some Ecosoya CBxcel that I have left over. Since the coconut wax

blend is very soft, does the candle burn down very quickly ?

Even though the flames are quite large the wax still burns slowly, a lot slower than soy wax. It also gives an amazing scent throw and it looks nicer. That's why I'm really trying to work with coconut wax and spending a lot of time + money testing. I think that once I get a good blend and appropriate wicks it'll be worth it. 

3 hours ago, ComfortandJoy said:

Yes! 

 

I am finding that coconut wax needs to be blended. I'm currently trying 5% beeswax to harden it a bit.  I have also tried blending it with 444 and 464 soy in separate tests.  It's hard to strike that balance. Too much soy dampens the scent throw.

 

I just ordered some CDN wicks to see how they do.

 

I also made a batch with wood wicks. Ah, what the heck? I'm in too deep to back out now.

7 hours ago, Kerven said:

The coconut wax from C&S is a coconut/soy blend, as is the coconut from Northwood. I'm not certain what the percentage of soy is in the C&S blend. I'd guess it's a proprietary blend with a higher % of soy. The Northwood blend is 90% coconut with the rest being palm and soy. Another proprietary blend, I'd guess... but maybe coconut 83 in disguise? Coconut 83 by ACCU-Blend (Accu-Pure 83), sold by Calcandlesupply, who also claims that it is mostly coconut wax, is a coconut blend that contains vegetable and soy waxes. Candlewic's coconut blend contains apricot and a small amount of paraffin. They supposedly blend their own, so I'm not familiar with the percentages.

Northwood's high percentage of coconut might explain the mushrooming. I had both these issues - large flame, smoke/mushrooming - with Candlewic's coconut/apricot blend. However, I did manage to "tame" it by mixing with soy. I've found that, as the percentage of soy increases, coconut/soy blends are much easier to wick in comparison to straight coconut. That may be due to my familiarity with working with soy. Nevertheless, I'm testing 75/25 and 50/50 blends of my own creation with ECO wicks and the results are very promising.

 

I'd suggest blending the coconut wax with soy. Since coconut 83 already has a bit of soy in it, I'd start with a 60/40 blend, coconut to soy. The soy you use may have an impact. I used 464 with my blends. Personally, I think blending spares the headache of trying to wick a high percentage coconut. To add to that, you get properties from both waxes depending on the ratio.

I tried blending coconut wax with 5% and 10% of Soy 464 and that didn't help much. Maybe I this wasn't enough soy. 

At first, I did not want to ad more than 10% of soy because I didn't want the soy to affect the scent throw,  but maybe you're right Kerven. Perhaps by adding more soy it makes the coconut wax easier to work with. I'd rather have a candle with a lighter scent throw than an improperly wicked one. I'm going to try a 70/30 and a 60/40, coconut to soy and hope this works.

9 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I tried an rrd40 in coconut wax with orange patchouli fragrance. The north woods coconut wax mushroomed pretty badly and burned a bit hotter than the candlesandsupplies coconut wax. The C&S coconut wax with the same wick seemed appropriately sized in The 8oz tin.

 

The throw from the two 8 oz tins burning side by side filled my basement within 30 minutes.

I haven't tried RRD wicks. Not many suppliers offer them which makes me think that they're not as popular, but other candle makers have had success with them. I'll have to try them and hope these work better than all the others I've used. 

Has anyone had any luck wicking coconut wax? I am using coconut wax 83 from Calcandlesupply and I am having a hard time finding proper wicks. I've tested different FO's, different jar sizes. So far very FO and jar combinations  work well, the majority of them give me a tall smoking flame. Sometimes the first burn will be fine but the second burn will give me a tall flame even after trimming the wick or vice versa. I've tried eco, CD, LX, HTP and nothing. 

Hi @Fluffysparkles did you ever find a wick that works with this wax? I purchased the same one and I'm dying for more info as it's extremely difficult to wick. If I wick down I won ft a full melt pool and if I wick up I'll get a tall flame with smoke. 

Hi @cvndlechix we're you successful on wicking the wax? I just began using the same wax and all my flames are tall no matter how small I wick them.

Hi @Kerven,

I am using Coconut Wax 83 from Calcandlesupply, and my ECO wicks are from Candlescience.

For my test with ECO 4 in both the 4oz and 8oz jars, I used the same FO, but I just saw my notes that dye was added to the 4oz jar, maybe this was a factor in its burnability. 

The wax supplier recommended using ECO 4 for the 2.75" 8oz jar, and CD 8 or ECO 10 for the 3.20" jar.

I tried the three size combinations with no FO, 10% Lemon Pound Cake FO from Candlesciene, and 10% Blood Orange FO, same results.              

I think you're right about it being easily taken up by the wick. Immediately after lighting the flame is too high, and within the first hour the wick is already smoking. I tried trimming one of the wicks a little smaller than 1/4" for the first burn and this seemed to help but by the first hour the flame was again too tall and I had to re-trim. One of the issues with this is that a lot of clients never trim their wicks even if you tell them how important this is, so I need a wick that can perform fairly well with this wax even if it's never trimmed. 

I also saw a few people blending this wax with soy. One person I think used 50% Coconut wax and 50% Soy wax, but I think this takes away from the great throw coconut wax is capable of. Maybe only adding a small percentage of soy wax would help... I'm thinking of possibly blending it with 10% soy and see if that improves it a little.

Have you found a wick that works for this wax? When Ecosoya's CB Adv. wax was discontinued I was forced to change my wax and decided to try something different. I decided to try a coconut blend but it is extremely difficult to wick. The lack of information about coconut wax doesn't make it any easier. So far I've tested:

Eco 4, 4oz jar, 2.75" diameter: Full melt pool after a 3-hour test burn. Perfect wick for this jar!

Eco 4, 8oz jar, 2.75 diameter: For some reason even though this wick worked on the 4oz jar with the same 2.75 diameter, it did not work on the 8oz jar. If anything the flame was extremely tall, with a lot of mushrooming and smoke after 20 mins. I had to extinguish it because it set my fire alarm off. It's odd that it worked fine on a 4oz jar but not 8oz jar...

CD 8, 8oz jar, 2.75 diameter: I did not get a full melt pool with this wick even after burning for 3 1/2 hours.

LX wicks tested many:  had a lot of mushrooming!

CD 10, 8oz jar, 2.75" diameter: The wick for this jar was appropriate. Full melt pool and a good flame. Not sure why this size didn't work for you.I've tested this wick with no FO, and 10% FO with 3 different scents and they all work well. 

Now, where I'm having a really hard time is wicking my jars with a diameter of 3.20" inches. CD 6, CD8, and CD10, don't give full melt pools. Eco 4, and CD 14 create large flames capable of turning on my fire alarm again. CD 12 gave the best burn with less than 1/2 inch away from a full melt pool.  But again wicking-up to CD 14 created too hot of a flame. 

Not sure how to proceed. It seems that coconut wax doesn't have enough density for many wicks, and even though I was able to wick my 8oz 2.75" diameter jar, I can't really use this wax if get all my other containers to work with it too.