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Oh Lawd, I just opened a new box of 4630 and somethin' ain't right..


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35 minutes ago, Pam W said:

What supplier did you order the was from?????????

I'm guessing that you'd have to pour a candle to see if there is any noticeable difference.

 

Candle Science.  I haven't contacted them, because I want to burn my testers first.  I've never had a problem with wax from them.  I've never had a problem with 4630 at all.  The first slab I pulled out is hard.  Not as hard as pillar wax, but it took two hands and a good amount of force to get a knife through it, which is highly unusual.  It's a little whiter or more opaque than usual.  I was finishing the last slab from a case I bought last fall from TCS  when I pulled out a slab of the CS wax.  I had both waxes in hand at the same time, and there was an unmistakable difference in color and hardness.  Not concerned about color. I've seen that before, but the hardness scares me.

I poured some clams, and my dye didn't mix in very well.  I also poured a couple of candles to test, but I'll wait until tomorrow to burn them.  I have a little more shrinkage than normal in the candles and my clams, but it is slight and not that big of a deal.  The true test will be when I burn a candle.

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Oh god, I hope you just got a mislabeled case or something!

I'm about to order a couple of cases of CBL125 from Candlewic, and they use the 4630 as their base for that. 😦 If the 4630 is broken, I don't want to play anymore!! 😭😭😭

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On 5/9/2018 at 4:53 PM, TallTayl said:

Ohhhhhh noooooooo.... not 4630 too 😢😬

 

Oh God, just when we had our formula down....4630 was one wax I could always depend on for consistency....now ya'll have me worried.

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On 5/9/2018 at 4:30 PM, bfroberts said:

It is significantly harder than usual.  Looks a little more opaque, too.  I am on the verge of freaking out a little.  Has anyone else noticed a difference in this wax lately?

 

Yes, I noticed this with the box I just got last week. It seems to be the same other than being harder. I had some from my old box left and there was a significant difference in texture.  I blend it with soy, and my finished candle isn't harder than normal. This happened a couple years ago too. 

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17 minutes ago, Jeana said:

 

Yes, I noticed this with the box I just got last week. It seems to be the same other than being harder. I had some from my old box left and there was a significant difference in texture.  I blend it with soy, and my finished candle isn't harder than normal. This happened a couple years ago too. 

 

Do you use dye? That's where I noticed a problem. Mine just would not fully incorporate.  I worked it hard trying to get it blended, but it never fully did, which is a problem I've never had before. 

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40 minutes ago, bfroberts said:

 

Do you use dye? That's where I noticed a problem. Mine just would not fully incorporate.  I worked it hard trying to get it blended, but it never fully did, which is a problem I've never had before. 

 

I do use color. I didn't have any issues with that. Are you using it straight or mixing it? I use EVO colors from candlewic, what colors are you using?

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3 hours ago, Jeana said:

 

I do use color. I didn't have any issues with that. Are you using it straight or mixing it? I use EVO colors from candlewic, what colors are you using?

I have dyes from everywhere.  I couldn't tell you what came from where because all the labels are covered with dye....lol.

Actually,  I only had problems with burgundy and yellow.  They just wouldn't fully blend and left weird residue in the bottom of my pour pot.  The clams looked fine other than the colors not being quite as vivid.  The whole thing was weird as heck.

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I began burning my testers this morning, and it is obvious that this batch of 4630 will require wicking adjustments  There is no doubt about it.  My wicking will have to be adjusted at least one size up.  I'll have to do more extensive testing.  So far, after a 4 hour burn on 3 separate FO's, I know I'm underwicked across the board, and my flames are more erratic than I'm used to.  Bummer.

 

I emailed CS and this is the gist of the response I received:

 

Thank you for contacting us! It sounds like you may have gotten slabs from a harder batch of 4630. The physical properties of the wax are tailored by refining processes, but the resulting product can vary in hardness and texture. We've have had some recent batches that were softer than usual and others that were harder. This is typical of any wax and usually does not cause significant adjustments in performance. You may find that the wicking needs to be bumped up or down, but the burn quality and fragrance performance should hold true. 

 

I have been buying this wax for several years (although not usually from CS), and while I have noticed slight variations in the past, this variation was the most significant.  I have never had to adjust my wicking before.  Apparently that lucky streak is over.

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my Dream is that all chandlers band together and put a foot down to the wide variances in our waxes. If Yankee got a batch out of spec they would reject it. Manufacturers and resellers are much more careful when there are consequences. Currently we have zero capability to put a stop to it as we are told, “too bad so sad.” at every turn. We say back, “thank you sir may I have another.”  In some of these cases the variances present a safety hazard. 

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1 hour ago, bfroberts said:

I began burning my testers this morning, and it is obvious that this batch of 4630 will require wicking adjustments  There is no doubt about it.  My wicking will have to be adjusted at least one size up.  I'll have to do more extensive testing.  So far, after a 4 hour burn on 3 separate FO's, I know I'm underwicked across the board, and my flames are more erratic than I'm used to.  Bummer.

 

I emailed CS and this is the gist of the response I received:

 

Thank you for contacting us! It sounds like you may have gotten slabs from a harder batch of 4630. The physical properties of the wax are tailored by refining processes, but the resulting product can vary in hardness and texture. We've have had some recent batches that were softer than usual and others that were harder. This is typical of any wax and usually does not cause significant adjustments in performance. You may find that the wicking needs to be bumped up or down, but the burn quality and fragrance performance should hold true. 

 

I have been buying this wax for several years (although not usually from CS), and while I have noticed slight variations in the past, this variation was the most significant.  I have never had to adjust my wicking before.  Apparently that lucky streak is over.

 

Funny because with the soy we hear it’s because it’s a natural product and they can’t help the variances. And now we hear the paraffin manufacturers can’t help the way it’s refined. Which, by the way, most are from China because the domestic refined patroleum is not affordable for wax manufacturers in the US, so who knows what the quality control is like there. 

 

 I love how CS makes it sound so easy to adjust your wicking. I spend so much time and money retesting all these wax issues, it almost makes it impossible move forward  and have a quality candle business. 

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1 minute ago, Jeana said:

 

 I love how CS makes it sound so easy to adjust your wicking. I spend so much time and money retesting all these wax issues, it almost makes it impossible move forward  and have a quality candle business. 

 

Preach!!!

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I feel so sorry for everyone on here that sell candles for a living.  I can only image how much frustration it causes as well as how it can effect all of you on here that make candles to sell.  It t would be bad enough for someone like me that is only doing it as a hobby.

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1 hour ago, ncraiders said:

I feel so sorry for everyone on here that sell candles for a living.  I can only image how much frustration it causes as well as how it can effect all of you on here that make candles to sell.  It t would be bad enough for someone like me that is only doing it as a hobby.

 

It is very hard. I've had to put very large wholesale orders on hold to run tests on waxes that have changed. I makes you look incompetent to your accounts. They don't understand the dynamics of candle making, and they don't want to. They just want the candles. How many times can they hear the same excuse of why they can't keep their candles in stock? It seems like every couple months all the waxes are changing. And of course, waiting on orders to re-test, is a significant loss of income. 

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On 5/9/2018 at 7:30 PM, bfroberts said:

It is significantly harder than usual.  Looks a little more opaque, too.  I am on the verge of freaking out a little.  Has anyone else noticed a difference in this wax lately?

 

I've used this wax for almost 8 years now. I have seen variations in hardness and color over the years. The hardness variability comes with the amount of oil in the wax. You can add a little oil (coconut, mineral, soybean) to the wax to soften it up. I do find that I have to wick up when the wax is harder but I've gotten used to it. 

 

I think the big picture here is that we are working with raw materials, not finished goods. Do you think IGI can send the oil back and say, I'm sorry, this isn't working like the last barrel I got from you, I'm going to need another? They work with it and figure out how to make it into the product they need. It's our job as the crafter to appreciate the challenges they face with their raw materials and work with what we have and accept that there will be variations. A raw material is not going to be consistent, period. 

 

And I'm pretty sure when Yankee gets a tanker truck full of wax they don't just blindly start making product with it, they test it, they probably test the crap out of it so they know exactly how it's going to perform and what changes they need to make to end up with the finished product their customers expect.

 

There's a big difference from "out of spec" and "feels/looks different". Out of spec means it's not even they product they intended to make. Looks different/feels different means just that, it may be further to one side of the specification which causes the difference in look and feel, but that doesn't mean it's out of spec. And I doubt any supplier in their right mind would try to sell a wax that is out of spec. If they are, shame on them if they're not disclosing it.

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Whooooaaaaa there GoodScents, these branded waxes we’re buying from IGI, GB, Cargill are NOT raw materials. These cases are their respective formulas that THEY blend to fall within certain specs. It is their job to fix the problems with inconsistencies in their fancy schmancy Labs loaded with expensive equipment that can analyze the raws, not the end users.

 

Manufacturers and retailers have zero incentive to fix anything that goes wrong since we end users have no reasonable channel to get them returned and be refunded. We are forced to bear the burden of crappy material.

 

Yankee orders silos full of materials. Do you think for one second that if their supplier sent something out of spec they would not complain, return, and if not remedied immediately cancel the account? Their suppliers are incented to deliver a much more consistent product or be forced to either take it back or lose a big customer. When you’re big you can do that. 

 

Candlescience tried to explain the soy problems on their site and here. One admission here was that the new owner of GB had problems on the line which introduced excess water into the wax product. Rather than be up front, they forced the crap onto us smaller consumers for many months. We bought it, bought more FO, and began to write reviews about our bad experiences. Candlescience is suffering losses as we got sick and tired of lies and disrespect. As we found other, better waxes and FO, only now are they trying to smooth things over. Suppliers better take note and begin to advocate for us when we end-consumers suffer from these bad lots. If not, they too will circle the drain and wonder why they lost their customer base.

 

We will only take so much. A class action suit made of the thousands of burned businesses might wake someone up. Our collective losses from these changes amounts to an awful lot of money. 

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Agreed 

And to take it further when these supposed changes to soy by removing transfats which had a huge impact on the way soy burns....shouldn’t be my responsibility to try to figure how to put “something” back in to make it normal again - it’s complete BS and the manufacturers need to be held accountable for it - they knew it wouldn’t burn the same but rather than try and manufacture a product that works they kept selling it to our suppliers who kept denying anything was wrong 🤷‍♀

I am tired of trying to figure out how to burn a soy candle after 10 plus years of making them and I certainly should not have to wick up or down each lot I get or play the “what additive will work with you THIS time”

 

 

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We live in a world that has produced a device that size of my palm that functions as a phone, TV, computer, clock, camera, video camera, gaming console, radio, library, map, calendar, calculator, voice recorder, virtual assistant, answering service, message center, record keeper, notepad, dictionary, timer, fitness tracker, and can give me turn by turn directions to nearly any address on the planet, but no one can consistently produce candle wax?  Bullsh..

 

It's time for me to try Candlewic.

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Your probably on to something bfroberts 

the suppliers that make their own blend probably have more consistency- I don’t see them putting up with crap wax to make their blends that they rely on making money with 

I was always so hesitant to use a wax Like that in fear of the company going oob and me SOL....but at this point I have nothing to lose 

I bought all of flamings blends when all this first happened but never opened any of them yet thinking I can make this soy work and trying other soys but it isn’t going to happen without losing quality and that’s something I refuse to give into and  to put on my shelf - plenty of other crap candles out there and that’s not what I’m looking for 

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I wish i could order stuff from candlewic but there shipping rates are higher than the wax costs for me.  I wanted to order some palm wax from them but shipping was like 10-15$ more to get to me.  i ended up ordering it from another company at 3/4 the shipping cost.  Unless something changed i can't order from them.

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I feel for all of you that do this for a living when I read these threads about wax inconsistency.  I'm too new at this to compare wax performance over time but I have no doubt your experiences and reports are 100% valid.  

 

But I can't see how you can appeal to the suppliers en masse since this every one of us is using our wax under so many different conditions and variables. 100 of us may say we are suddenly seeing cracks, or sinkholes, or poor throw but all of us are using different FO's, wicks, containers... not to mention the variances in heating, pour temps, room temps.. as well as candle making experience.

 

This is the "out" any big supplier can use to defend their product vs. complaints from a bunch of small craft producers.

 

Call me cynical, but I doubt an IGI or Golden Brands is all that concerned with bad wax reports from crafts people.  But I do think the retailers of their candle wax products should care.  A lot.   We are their customer base. 

 

And I don't think it's too much to ask or to expect that these candle craft suppliers periodically - every quarter?- test the waxes they sell and publish the reports so their customers can see the results of those tests and realign their candle making operations accordingly. 

 

As we all know, it only takes about 6 lbs of wax and 2 pans to do a pretty comprehensive baseline wick test. And another .. 3 lbs ? or so tops, to do some basic jar tests to assess cracks, sinkholes, adhesion variances... 

 

I would subscribe in a hot second to any email list from a candle supply website that provided these reports before they ship me wax.  And I'd buy my wax from them. Probably for the rest of my life.  

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@pughaus soaping oils vary by lot, too, for instance. But all fall within tight specs. Lye varies from batch to batch, but again within specs . For each we are able to obtain certificates of analysis (COA) and can adjust formulas very easily. I have never seen that from wax suppliers. All we ever see is the version posted on the manufacturers’ tech specs. It includes what is important to them as far as color, average drop point, range ofmelt point, etc. I would LOVE to be able to obtain the actual analyses for wax batches. The main uses of that wax, paper cups, etc, it really does not matter how this stuff varies. 

 

As far as the performance being easy using a pan test, ohhhhhh not so. It takes several weeks to figure out something is terribly wrong with soy wax. A “passed” wick test on cases of 444 did not reveal that the wax develops full trough the candle cracks until several weeks later, after hundreds of successfully wick tested candles were already cured on the shelf. That represented loads of $$ of lost wax product, customer returns, lost wholesale accounts....

 

cavities, sink holes, etc. are all fairly new developments that the pan test did not reveal either. Had to figure out an entirely new way to blend the wax to eliminate them. Remember how disappointed you were at discovering cavities in a couple coconut candles you paid good $ for? Multiply that by thousands. In some cases the cavities are a serious safety issue, much like the sudden random 464 syneresis that resulted in pooled fragrance oil. Fire anyone? The insurance company would blame the user, or chandler, not the manufacturer where the blame truly is. We treat them as too big to fail. 

 

Theres more to the story, much more than we are being told. 

 

A similar thing happened with a lye supplier a few years ago. The lye was contaminated and hundreds of people complained. We were lied to in that each complaint was the “only one”.  They deleted complaints on social media. Users got so desperate that they started randomly adding more lye until their soap “looked right”. The problem happened right on live stream to their “expert” and they denied it.  I’m stunned that nobody was sued - that soap burned people. To this day that supplier claims nothing is wrong, but they lost a lot of global business. 

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