Tunneling and air cavities in 464...Will. Not. Stop!

[olives]

Just a post to vent and maybe feel less alone if there are any others are experiencing the same...

 

I've posted in the recent past about my issues with air cavities beneath the surface of my mainly 464/small percentage of coconut wax candles, which have been causing severe tunneling during burning and causing the wick to self-extinguish. Thanks to everyone's advice, I've experimented with lowering pour temps, heating jars, slowing cooling, monitoring room temp, and even RAISING pour temps. However, after having two customers return candles recently due to tunneling, that was the last straw. (Lord knows how many other bad candles are out there that I've sold that I don't know about!) 

 

I'm now poking relief holes around the wicks of every candle I make after it sets, and then doing a final top pour the following day. (This is a time-consuming extra step to my production, but it has to be done for my own peace of mind.) And when I poke those relief holes, I can feel air cavities in every single one of my candles. 

 

Could this just be the reality of things now that soy wax has changed? I have been making and selling candles for 3 years, and this is the first time I'm experiencing these issues. Anyone else noticing this with their candles?

 

For those of you who mainly use coconut wax: Do you experience tunneling/air cavity issues? If all of this is soy-related, I'm thinking of ditching soy altogether, or completely shifting the soy-to-coconut ratio I use in my blends so that the majority of my blend is coconut wax.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback/general good-vibe-sending!

 

 

[TallTayl]

I have not experienced cavities in my type of coconut only (touches wood) but anything soy has that tendency lately. Every coconut wax available is different, though, so I can only attest to those I have tried.

 

Not sure how the soy wax manufacturers are amending their formulas to meet their tech specs, but man is performance all over the board! 444 became unusable with cracks forming from the time during cure to even MONTHS after making what appeared to be fine candles. What a total mess. 

[olives]

A TOTAL mess. I constantly wonder how bigger soy candle businesses are coping. I'm super small-scale, but still losing sleep over this (and how much time and money I'm spending on testing and re-works). 

 

Good to know about the coconut wax...I'm testing a few different brands and now I'm going back to the drawing board with them. Planning on lowering the soy portion of my blends drastically, and even eliminating altogether.

[Linds]

I am experiencing the same!

I am still new/inexperienced, but these are the things I've tried:

1. Pouring cooler or warmer (have tried pouring at 110, 130, 135, 140, 150)
2. Warming containers
3. Not warming containers
4. Putting poured candles in a turned-off oven to set overnight (tried this with latest batch, bad sink holes).
5. Wrapping poured candles with a towel and letting them set in a roasting pan
6. Of course I started out just letting them set at room temp, so I've done that too.
7. Locking wicks in place tightly
8. Leaving wicks more loose (to try to let them release air)

Some details: My kitchen (where I'm working) is usually 70-72 degrees without the oven on. When I turn the oven on to warm containers, the kitchen warms to about 75.

On a previous batch, I had poured at 135 and only had one sink hole in the last container I poured. Assuming the wax had cooled a bit by then, I decided to try pouring just a bit warmer. So, last night this is what I tried: 9oz. straight sided jars, 2.5" diameter, 464 melted and heated to 185, poured at 138-139, into warmed containers, various wicks - brands and sizes - for testing, no fragrance or dye added. BAD sink holes! I noticed a few small bubbles on the bottom of the container around the wick tab. I have been using glue dots to secure wicks, and I'm wondering if the space they leave between the container and the tab isn't trapping air. I pour slowly but always, always notice bubbles as the wax cools.

[olives]

@Linds, I feel your pain! One thing I've also stopped doing is stirring intermittently while the wax is cooling down; I thought doing this would be a good thing, to continue to promote the binding of the fragrance oils to the wax, but figured I might be contributing to any air bubbles during pour.

 

You actually bring up a REALLY interesting point about the wick stickers...I use those, too, and I have noticed those same bubbles around the wick tab when I pour... 

 

Due to the volume of candles I make at a time, the wick stickers are most convenient for me to use. (I have someone actually pre-stick my wicks with the stickers so my wicks are ready to go when I grab them.) I've used hot glue before, but had so many issues with the wicks coming loose that I had to stop. I also tried that gasket adhesive that many people have recommended, and while that stuff is insanely adhesive, I found it messy to use (oh, and it's red...which you can see if it seeps a bit outside the diameter of the wick tab.) So, it was back to the wick stickers for me - quick, easy to use, and sticky. But now you have me wondering...hmmmm.

[kandlekrazy]

On 4/16/2018 at 10:29 AM, olives said:

A TOTAL mess. I constantly wonder how bigger soy candle businesses are coping. I'm super small-scale, but still losing sleep over this (and how much time and money I'm spending on testing and re-works). 

 

Good to know about the coconut wax...I'm testing a few different brands and now I'm going back to the drawing board with them. Planning on lowering the soy portion of my blends drastically, and even eliminating altogether.

I would be willing to stake my life that the big guns out there are not using 100% soy, or 100% anything vege.  I'm sure they have a proprietary blend that has been tested a million times by the manufacturer.

[runner14jc]

Personally, I hate doing relief holes because it definitely is time-consuming. I've found that adjusting pouring temperature works the best and then right after I pour, I tap the container on my hard pouring surface several times. Just gentle tapping but you can see the air bubbles release and float to the surface and break. It's helped a lot with avoiding surface issues and cavities under the dried surface.

 

9 minutes ago, kandlekrazy said:

I would be willing to stake my life that the big guns out there are not using 100% soy, or 100% anything vege.  I'm sure they have a proprietary blend that has been tested a million times by the manufacturer.

I agree I think most larger companies either use paraffin or a para/soy blend. They have their reputation already set and are known for their brand so they can get away with some things smaller businesses can't get away with.

[olives]

@kandlekrazy @runner14jc I think you guys are right. They are definitely NOT ordering from the suppliers we're using and testing each box before they use it...and I'm not even talking about Yankee or the other big guns...I'm talking about smaller scale - yet still very popular - companies like PF Candle Co., Seawicks, etc. I'm sure that even they are working with a manufacturer and getting custom blends.

 

Relief holes are a huge thorn in my production right now. I'm going to try the tapping during my pouring today. In the meantime, I'm going to work on a blend that uses as little soy as I can get away with. The cost is going to be higher, but time is money and right now the amount of time I'm spending with re-works is killing me.

 

 

[c_gills]

I had tunneling issues with my candles that I made during December using 444. The tunneling wasn't from bubbles in the wax, I think it was the wax itself. I heard through this forum that Golden Brands had a hydrogenator got out and had manufacture all of wax using only one. In turn, producing as much as they could, as fast as they could and possibly hurting quality. What is the production date of the wax you're using? I have one case left that was manufactured in December and am afraid to use it!

 

@olives and @Linds

For those having sink holes issues - have you tried stirring more gently and less, and then pouring very slowly? I use wick stickers too and have noticed bubbles around them, but when I pour more slowly and focus my pour on them, they usually float to the top by the end of the pour.

[olives]

10 minutes ago, c_gills said:

I had tunneling issues with my candles that I made during December using 444. The tunneling wasn't from bubbles in the wax, I think it was the wax itself. I heard through this forum that Golden Brands had a hydrogenator got out and had manufacture all of wax using only one. In turn, producing as much as they could, as fast as they could and possibly hurting quality. What is the production date of the wax you're using? I have one case left that was manufactured in December and am afraid to use it!

 

@olives and @Linds

For those having sink holes issues - have you tried stirring more gently and less, and then pouring very slowly? I use wick stickers too and have noticed bubbles around them, but when I pour more slowly and focus my pour on them, they usually float to the top by the end of the pour.

 

The dates on my boxes of 464 wax are all in late November 2017. (Interestingly, these have been the same dates on all of the boxes I've purchased from my supplier so far this year...I would have thought that by now they would have later dates on them...)

 

One thing I have been doing is stirring slower and more gently, and eliminating intermittent stirring as the wax is cooling down before I pour. This does seem to help a bit, but not eliminating all of the air cavities.

 

i do agree at this point that these issues are related to soy wax, because these issues just started happening to me last fall with no change in my production methods, wicks, fragrance oils, etc. Really frustrating!

[kandlekrazy]

Not sure if this will help with your wax,  but  it's worth a try.  When I was getting tunneling it was right near the wick so I started pouring super slowly down the wick itself, if you're pouring on the cool side it will not disturb the wick coating.  It takes a bit longer to pour but cut out my repours because it solved my problem, now I just have to heat gun if they are at all messy on top.

[GoldieMN]

6 hours ago, olives said:

 

The dates on my boxes of 464 wax are all in late November 2017. (Interestingly, these have been the same dates on all of the boxes I've purchased from my supplier so far this year...I would have thought that by now they would have later dates on them...)

My last two boxes from Rustic Escentuals are dated January 2018.

GoldieMN

[olives]

4 hours ago, GoldieMN said:

My last two boxes from Rustic Escentuals are dated January 2018.

GoldieMN

 

Interesting...I get mine from Bulk Natural Oils...

[olives]

10 hours ago, kandlekrazy said:

Not sure if this will help with your wax,  but  it's worth a try.  When I was getting tunneling it was right near the wick so I started pouring super slowly down the wick itself, if you're pouring on the cool side it will not disturb the wick coating.  It takes a bit longer to pour but cut out my repours because it solved my problem, now I just have to heat gun if they are at all messy on top.

 

Thanks @kandlekrazy...my air cavities are definitely near the wicks so I will try that!

[Trappeur]

Wow!  what an interesting subject with tunneling and cavities on 464!  Unbelievable what I see happening with posts I'm reading about.

I use 464 and have "never ever" had that happen to me.

I just poured 250 candles this past week with different lot numbers and they always come out perfect.

To get smooth as glass tops with no tunneling or anything I pour at 150 and is perfect.

I never ever poke holes in my wax either, ever, I don't heat my jars, don't put in the oven or wrap them either.

 

Now my house gets quite cool at times and I still pour at 150 but as soon as the wax is firm and the tops are not liquid I will put the lids on top not screwed on but just laid on top so the surfaces do not get hair line cracks as they will if it is that cool. If I do get surface cracks which sometimes I might miss, a simple very light repour on the top takes care of that problem.  At the times when it is cool in my house and I'm having to lay something across the tops of the candles to stop them from the possibility of surface cracks after they are hard I will sit the candles in an area in my living room and will put heavy padding like throws laying on top and surrounding the candles and they will stay like that till I'm ready to put in my truck to deliver them.  It can be a pain in the hiney doing this, but I gotta do what I gotta do till I get them to the shops. I heat my house with a wood stove in the basement and have a wood burning fireplace in the living room so between running up and downstairs chucking wood in the fireplace and wood stove and keeping my eye on the candles, it can get quite a procedure I have going...but I'm used to it.  Maybe the day will be coming soon when I move back home to Maine, I can have my barn house built and actually live a life like a normal human being and just hit a switch and move the thermostat higher or lower...geesh wouldn't that be nice....sigh....  I forgot that people have thermostats in their homes!  lol

 

 At times I do get wet spots but only in cooler temperatures.  But it is something that I am not really concerned about.  If it happens, it happens.  No shop has ever remarked about seeing any wet spots.  It is just something that happens if it happens .  Take a look at candles in stores.   Loaded with wet spots from all top candle companies.....Being that I sell wholesale to stores and pour hundreds, I don't always get to pour my candles at the perfect stage of 150 and it happens all the time that the pour temperature of my candles drop well below 150 even down to 130 and still I do not ever have problems as tunneling or cavaties.  What happens if I drop down in temperature, the candle tops turn out rough looking like cottage cheese tops, but it is nothing that can't be fixed with a repour.  Now my candles all get my signature little doo dads sitting on top of the wax and I have to do the 2'nd repour to bind the doo dad to the wax so I don't care if the tops are not perfect.  With as much pouring as I do, I would go nuts if I had to keep warming up the temperature of my pot of wax to keep it at the 150 pour temperature so that wouldn't work for me. 

 

God love you all with the problems of what you all are having.....sorry to hear of things like that happening.

 

Trappeur

[GoldieMN]

I poured six different fragrance/test jars three weeks ago with my new boxes of 464.  They all had smooth tops after cooling.  Time to test burn them. . .UGH. . .they all have cracks on their tops.  I've had problems in the past as many of you with 464 but never had cracks.  So, will a shot of heat until cracks disappear be enough to fix candles if I get this in jars I want to sell?  The hot throw is good, cracks disappear as soon as they start to melt without fixing the cracks with a heat gun but wouldn't sell them with cracks.

GoldieMN