Jump to content

Tired of 464, any recommendations?


Recommended Posts

I am so tired of dealing with the batch to batch changes of 464 soy wax. I've used it for the last 10 years, but I can't take it anymore. I have very large cracks and zero hot throw this time. Last month it was extreme frosting (I have to color one accounts). Its so embarrassing to tell your accounts you can't help how crappy their candles look and throw. It's because the wax changed AGAIN. It's driving me crazy. Can anyone recommend a smooth creamy paraffin or para/soy? I want something consistent. Is that even possible with any wax? I'm on the west coast so It would be nice to have distributor if possible. 

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jeana! Have you ever tried the IGI 6006, it is a pre-blended parasoy. Or, you could always create your own blend. If you have 464 left, you could blend it with a paraffin wax like the IGI 4630. That way you could control the ratios and see what works best for you. Alternatively, if you prefer to switch straight up to paraffin the IGI 4630 or IGI 4627 work beautifully. The 4630 comes in a slab and the 4627 is super soft so comes in a bag and needs to be almost scooped out (yes, it's a bit messy but produces some great results). For West coast suppliers, I know CandleScience has a warehouse in Nevada. I've heard there is a supplier in southern California but I'm not sure the name but you might be able to find it with some searching. Hope this helps!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, runner14jc said:

Hi Jeana! Have you ever tried the IGI 6006, it is a pre-blended parasoy. Or, you could always create your own blend. If you have 464 left, you could blend it with a paraffin wax like the IGI 4630. That way you could control the ratios and see what works best for you. Alternatively, if you prefer to switch straight up to paraffin the IGI 4630 or IGI 4627 work beautifully. The 4630 comes in a slab and the 4627 is super soft so comes in a bag and needs to be almost scooped out (yes, it's a bit messy but produces some great results). For West coast suppliers, I know CandleScience has a warehouse in Nevada. I've heard there is a supplier in southern California but I'm not sure the name but you might be able to find it with some searching. Hope this helps!

 

I actually mix 464 with 4630 now. Sometimes it makes it worse. Like right now it is making it harder, which I think is contributing to the cracking. I order from Candlescience right now. They have the 4627 and 6006. Their reviews complain about the 6006 having a lot of soot, and inconsistencies of batches too. I saw 4633 too I may order a sample of that one next time. I have tried the 4627. I found it hard to wick.

Have you personally used the 6006?

When I go to the candle isle at different stores, I get so jealous of how nice, creamy, and consistent other people's candles look. :( I have candle envy lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder what is causing the large cracks ...?  I've been pouring this wax, and I admit, I now add a bit of stearic and up'd my scent to about 8%, but I haven't been experiencing these drastic issues.  Also, I haven't had much frosting.  Sometimes I think it might be the climate, the humidity, temperature, etc., that is resulting in some of these differences in results.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, birdcharm said:

I wonder what is causing the large cracks ...?  I've been pouring this wax, and I admit, I now add a bit of stearic and up'd my scent to about 8%, but I haven't been experiencing these drastic issues.  Also, I haven't had much frosting.  Sometimes I think it might be the climate, the humidity, temperature, etc., that is resulting in some of these differences in results.

 

 

When was the last time you bought your 464? And where did you get it? I get mine from Candlescience. Maybe yours were from later last year. Those were good batches. The batches I've had trouble with lately were made in Jan. The case I had from Dec had a lot of frost issues, but no cracks. the photo is an example of one of the cracks. There were other cracks inside the candle too. CS says it was because my wax cooled too quickly. It was 75 degrees in my shop the entire time I was pouring and when it was setting up. I literally make hundreds of these candles every month, and have been for about 7 years, so I can definitely tell when it's me or the wax.  

 

Plus, the throw is pretty much zero lately. I thought it was the testers I was doing, but when I looked up reviews. I see many people are having this issue. Look at CS reviews of 464. There is a man on there that was buying pallets of it. He was having all the same issues I have had. I've always been afraid to buy a pallet because I feel like I would be stuck with several boxes of crappy wax. There are even people in the veggie section of this forum that are having the same issues I am. 

 

That's why I want to have an opened mind and try more paraffins. I always heard they weren't as temperamental. 

Cracks 3.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is plain old 464 with that crack??

this is a little surprising, it's been years since I used that wax but it's so soft of a wax I can't even believe my eyes 

 

soy is a major problem right now and I'm beginning to think it goes deeper than we even imagined 

 

I have been getting cracks in soys adding different waxes and hardeners trying to get the burn under control without having to wick down so drastic and compromise throw that has already been compromised some how in the last several months, almost a years time of lots of soy - this is baffling 

 

coconut waxes seem to be pretty consistent so far but I haven't worked with them long enough and I don't use straight paraffin so I can't help you there 

 

How I wish none of this ever happened - almost year later and I'm still working on a new blend - I can't sell 415 anymore and sleep at night knowing it's basically crap now 

Edited by moonshine
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moonshine, I mix with a little paraffin, but I’ve used the same recipe for about 7years. I have the exact same recipe and scent hanging around in my shop from other batches of 464 that look great. Smooth, creamy and soft, with no frosting at all. That’s why I know it’s not me, it’s the wax. 

Funny you mention the coconut wax. I have my eye on some from California candle supply. http://calcandlesupply.com/sc-21-wax-coconut-hybrid-blend/  It’s more expensive that’s for sure, but if it’s higher quality and more consistent it could be worth it. 

I hope you can find your new wax soon. I don’t get it, soy used to be very consistent until about 3 years ago. Now you never know what you’ll get, especially with Golden brand waxes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Jeana said:

 

I actually mix 464 with 4630 now. Sometimes it makes it worse. Like right now it is making it harder, which I think is contributing to the cracking. I order from Candlescience right now. They have the 4627 and 6006. Their reviews complain about the 6006 having a lot of soot, and inconsistencies of batches too. I saw 4633 too I may order a sample of that one next time. I have tried the 4627. I found it hard to wick.

Have you personally used the 6006?

When I go to the candle isle at different stores, I get so jealous of how nice, creamy, and consistent other people's candles look. :( I have candle envy lol.

Hi Jeana! The 6006 works wonderfully, it just takes a bit of patience to get your wicking down as you get started. Once the right wick is in place with my fragrances and fragrance load, I don't have any issues with excessive sooting. I think it is a great alternative to creating your own blend, which it sounds like you already do. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have seen similar cracking like you showed in your picture. Usually, when I've seen it, it has been with wax blends and temperatures being too cold. I'm not quite sure what else could cause it. You mentioned the room was 75*, what temp did you pour at and do you usually pre-heat your containers? I typically use 464 more than any other wax but I do know that I often have to change my pouring temperature with different batches of wax and through different times of the year.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me that looks like your house might be a little too chilly, but then you said it was 75 in it?  Hmmmmm  I use 464 and that happens to me if the air is cool.  It sure looks like a surface crack to me.  Pouring at 150 give or take works for me.  What temperature do you pour at?  

 

Trappeur

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

GB/Akosoy have been horrible for well over a year. Their other blends(444 and 415 specifically) vary wildly from lot to lot. Side by side tests vary consistently by several wick sizes. I test naked wax in tins with wicks from the same bag side by side by side, so the variables are very limited. The ONLY variation is the wax itself. 

 

One contributing factor that i can pinpoint using 415 is the moisture levels in “fresh” wax. When a case sits open for a year or longer quite a few of the inconsistencies start to fall more into line with what I would expect, but the throw is still not what it used to be. Who can afford to prebuy a years worth of wax and hope for the best? Ako fell behind with production and is pumping it out as ast as they can. We were informed about moisture in the lines last fall by Candlescience, after being pressed about other issues, but geez, where was the announcement about it?  We have all wasted countless $$ trying to make this awful wax perform well enough to stay in business. It has to smell to sell. 

 

I’ve had to make a switch to other wax blends this year. Those soy waxes just underperform every time. I thought it was just me and a lack of skill using soy wax (though I have over a decade of successful chandling experience, lol). To compare, buy lots of candles made with that wax from other chandlers who claim it works well, and lo and behold there’s zero throw and the burns are not good. So it’s not just you and me. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually have been doing a blend of 75% 464 and 25% 4630 for over 4 years now. Those cracks happen to me ALLL the time! It's always attributed to cold glassware and/or a cold house. I also have one fragrance blend that does it every single time. It got better when I mix some 4627 in with the other 2. I also found that pouring much hotter made a huge difference if, when, and how bad they would crack. I pour between 165-170 now and have just about eliminated the cracking except for in the 1 fragrance blend, if it wasn't my best seller I'd kick it to the curb already!

I know it's frustrating when the wax seems different with every new batch you get, but it is a raw material that you have to work with and manipulate to make it do what you want. Do you think Yankee candle backs up their tanker cars of wax and just start pouring candles????? They have an entire department dedicated to testing new lots, figuring out fragrance loads and pour temp, etc. I realize that's not realistic for us smaller companies, especially if you're a one person operation, but you can make 1 candle initially to see if you need to make any changes. I do that and it has saved me a lot of time and heart ache over the years!

Jeana I'm happy to chat more about your blend if you'd like, I played around with the ratios for awhile before I found the one that works best for me. That may be easier than jumping ship and starting all over from scratch!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, GoodScents said:

I know it's frustrating when the wax seems different with every new batch you get, but it is a raw material that you have to work with and manipulate to make it do what you want. 

I disagree with this statement. It is not a raw material. It is a blended, finished product which is intensely marketed as such. There has never been this level of inconsistency and underperformance with soy as there has been for the past 18 months.  Manufacturers insist nothing has changed, but clearly it has. Many of us here have been using the same wax blends for over a decade and only recently have experienced such horrible product fails. 

 

The statement is like saying duncan Hines chocolate cake mix is a raw ingredient that you should expect to have to tweak with butter, chocolate and more or less flour from box to box to get what you have always expected in a cake made from their mix.  it may take a few cases to figure out the problems with the lot, and still Duncan Hines INSISTS nothing is wrong. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Jeana said:

When was the last time you bought your 464? And where did you get it? I get mine from Candlescience. Maybe yours were from later last year. Those were good batches. The batches I've had trouble with lately were made in Jan. The case I had from Dec had a lot of frost issues, but no cracks. the photo is an example of one of the cracks. There were other cracks inside the candle too. CS says it was because my wax cooled too quickly. It was 75 degrees in my shop the entire time I was pouring and when it was setting up. I literally make hundreds of these candles every month, and have been for about 7 years, so I can definitely tell when it's me or the wax.

 

I'm still on the order I received late last fall ('17) from Candlewic, so maybe there were some changes in the wax over the winter.  The pouring temperature is what also comes to mind in regard to cracks, maybe the new soy is more finicky in that regard.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

The statement is like saying duncan Hines chocolate cake mix is a raw ingredient that you should expect to have to tweak with butter, chocolate and more or less flour from box to box to get what you have always expected in a cake made from their mix.  it may take a few cases to figure out the problems with the lot, and still Duncan Hines INSISTS nothing is wrong. 

 

Yet, if you bake at a high elevation, there are some tweaks that may be necessary.  I think in the case of soy wax, temperatures seem to be a key factor in dealing with it.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

 

Yet, if you bake at a high elevation, there are some tweaks that may be necessary.  I think in the case of soy wax, temperatures seem to be a key factor in dealing with it.

 

 

yet all of that is predictable and consistent 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say I agree with TT on this. Ive been using 444 for 3 years now and as of last week will no longer buy this wax. I have sinced started testing 6006. Ive had it with Soy, something is just wrong with it.

 

With initial testing of the 6006, it does soot if your wicks arent trimmed when they need to be. If You keep up on your trimming, I have zero issues with soot, perfect creamy wax, and excellent throw. Why do I want the headache of soy again?

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hate to say it but I've just about given up on soy as well. The rest of my soy is probably going to be hardened and used for melts. Every single time I find a fix for the soy issues the next shipment of wax puts me back where I started. It has been more trouble than it needs to/should be. Even though the coconut waxes are beasts to wick at least they're consistent.

 

Have there been issues with non-big-brand soy waxes?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KervenI have tried the midwest soy and millenium waxes and they suck too, there are a few from some suppliers that do not put a name to their soy claiming it as their "own" but I have not gone down that road and have no plans to either 

 

I went with 444 after so many years of 415 and the second lot I received was like daja vu - back to issues and TT says it gets worse so I am almost a year into testing different crap and I am done with soy- just done

 

I agree cocunut has its issues but it is consistent at least and that is major at this point, Just need to perfect my wick sizes and I am off and running with it and if for any reason it fails on me and becomes inconsistent I will be going all palm or paraffin 

 

The 200 plus pounds of soy I have around here are going to go in jars I want to get rid of and I will just have to wick down and be okay with the fact that they are not throwing as well as they should and have a heck of a soy blow out special-  SEE YA  - and I can make up a bunch of cool fire starters I suppose 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@moonshine I was planning on going with either 415 or 444 because I heard there were less issues with them. I'm glad I didn't. I did a few tests with them and they were far less quality that 464, so I stayed with what I know.  Where do you get your coconut wax from? I just ordered a sample of a coconut blend from Cal candle supply. And I ordered a sample of one of their straight paraffins. There are too many reviews of 6006 sooting so badly I'm afraid to try that. No one trims their wicks so I know I can't make a candle counting on that LOL. 

 

Is Nature wax the only manufacturer of coconut wax? I see that it is to be poured very hot 200+. That's a little hard to maintain that temp when pouring many at a time isn't it?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, GoodScents said:

I actually have been doing a blend of 75% 464 and 25% 4630 for over 4 years now. Those cracks happen to me ALLL the time! It's always attributed to cold glassware and/or a cold house. I also have one fragrance blend that does it every single time. It got better when I mix some 4627 in with the other 2. I also found that pouring much hotter made a huge difference if, when, and how bad they would crack. I pour between 165-170 now and have just about eliminated the cracking except for in the 1 fragrance blend, if it wasn't my best seller I'd kick it to the curb already!

I know it's frustrating when the wax seems different with every new batch you get, but it is a raw material that you have to work with and manipulate to make it do what you want. Do you think Yankee candle backs up their tanker cars of wax and just start pouring candles????? They have an entire department dedicated to testing new lots, figuring out fragrance loads and pour temp, etc. I realize that's not realistic for us smaller companies, especially if you're a one person operation, but you can make 1 candle initially to see if you need to make any changes. I do that and it has saved me a lot of time and heart ache over the years!

Jeana I'm happy to chat more about your blend if you'd like, I played around with the ratios for awhile before I found the one that works best for me. That may be easier than jumping ship and starting all over from scratch!

Thank you, but if I stay with 464 at all I'll be mixing it with something other than 4630. I've been getting some good results with mixing CB#9 when it comes to helping the look and behavior of 464, but now I'm dealing with the zero scent throw. There is no cure to that other than switch to a higher quality of wax. 

I always pour hot. Usually I get far less frosting pouring hot. 

I open several new 464 cases each week, all with different batch numbers. There is no way I could test all those boxes each time I open one. Even if I did, what a waste of time to try to perfect each batch of candles for each box I open. That's impossible to make any money that way. I have had delay some very large accounts as it is by some of the changes I see. They aren't happy when I do that. And it costs me thousands of dollars to delay my orders. There should be higher quality control on these waxes. They don't care they get their money and walk away. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, birdcharm said:

 

I'm still on the order I received late last fall ('17) from Candlewic, so maybe there were some changes in the wax over the winter.  The pouring temperature is what also comes to mind in regard to cracks, maybe the new soy is more finicky in that regard.

 

 

 I had some very good batches in the fall. The bad ones started in Dec. and have gradually gotten worse. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, TallTayl said:

yet all of that is predictable and consistent 

 

Yes, it is in many ways.  Yet, you've probably noticed that with many cake mixes, cookies, etc. that there has been a change in the recipes due to the transfat being removed.  I think we have to accept that with soy wax and the recent issues in the processing with the fats, etc., it may not be consistent.  It seems nothing is the same anymore, like Oreo cookies, for instance, not the same at all, totally changed, all because of the transfat issue.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Jeana said:

 

 I had some very good batches in the fall. The bad ones started in Dec. and have gradually gotten worse. 

 

That's around the time I got a horrible shipment of wax as well. Problems started for me sometime around September when I ran out of some older wax I had from Peak and Candlewic and had to order more. It was from Candlewic and didn't perform quite as well but @birdcharm 's fix remedied that. Ran out of wax again a week or two before Christmas and ordered from Candlescience, which put me right back at square one during a vital time. Still a little bitter about that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...