soot on jars with coconut wax

[madam_majed]

I am working with Northwoods organic coconut wax,  I really want to keep my candles double wicked. my jars are 3.5 "  I have tried eco 6 eco 8 eco 10 all doubled wicked and  leave soot

swell cd 5-8 I have used all double wicked and leave soot. they smoke black a small amount while burning swell.  I use 1 oz FO to 1 lb wax

please any tips or advise would be so nice! I'm getting very discouraged because no one wants to buy a candle that is all black for half its life!

 

[TallTayl]

From what I have learned about coconut wax as I test it, that is way too much wick.

 

Try wicking down to eco 2 if you must stay double wicked. Or rrd 34.  Or possibly htp. 

[madam_majed]

Thank you! What are your thoughts on the hot throw with the smaller wicks with coconut wax? So far hot and cold throw has been amazing. I will order some eco 2 tomorrow and try them out. Would adding more FO contribute to soot ? I don't want to loose the hot throw going down wick sizes.  

[TallTayl]

More of can definitely add to sooting problems. 

Smaller wick does not necessarily mean less ht. It has to do with finding the sweet spot of melt pool and air current to throw the moltenwax into the air. 

[madam_majed]

Aswell, is rrd 34 wick the same as eco?  

What has worked the best for you with your candles? I'm also making a larger candle about 4" 

[moonshine]

the biggest misconception out there is you have to have big hot wicks for hot throw 

Like TT stated it's finding the perfect melt pool and air current and melt pools do not necessarily have to be deep either 

 

a double eco 10 in a 3-1/2 jar would be suited for like a bathroom sink and I'm not trying to be condescending either just trying to give you a visual 

your definitely getting soot from being over wicked 

coconut is a very soft wax and doesn't need much to burn alone without blending 

 

are you dead set on double wicking that jar?  I would suggest single wick with like a eco 4 maybe a 6 

adding more FO can give you more issues as well 

RRD wicks are not the same as eco you can find them at most suppliers labeled as RRD - I get mine from candles and supplies 

[madam_majed]

9 hours ago, moonshine said:

the biggest misconception out there is you have to have big hot wicks for hot throw 

Like TT stated it's finding the perfect melt pool and air current and melt pools do not necessarily have to be deep either 

 

a double eco 10 in a 3-1/2 jar would be suited for like a bathroom sink and I'm not trying to be condescending either just trying to give you a visual 

your definitely getting soot from being over wicked 

coconut is a very soft wax and doesn't need much to burn alone without blending 

 

are you dead set on double wicking that jar?  I would suggest single wick with like a eco 4 maybe a 6 

adding more FO can give you more issues as well 

RRD wicks are not the same as eco you can find them at most suppliers labeled as RRD - I get mine from candles and supplies 

Thanks for your reply!  I'm surprised because the company advised me to use 2x eco 6 or 8 when I contacted them with my issue. 

I tried a eco 10 ( which I now know is to big lol) and that left soot aswell. I'm really hopeong to find the perfect recipe for a double wick I love the look it has. I will order the rrd wicks today to try too.  Any chance you think it is also the wax from NorthWood? I used the coconut wax from Swancandles, it was much harder to work with, har sink holes and allways needed a second pour but it burned great with next to no soot on the jars with 2 x CD 8. ( burned much to fast I now know why). I am also set on using organic materials  otherwise I would have switched back so long ago. 

[TallTayl]

I have a little of the northwood wax. It is very soft, and burns very easily. In a 3" metal tin the rrd40 was plenty big to achieve a full burn toward the top of the container. 

 

RRD wicks are round cotton core. I find natural waxes burn well with cotton. The RRD wicks tend to have (in my tests and waxes) a slightly cooler flame that allows the wick to use the fuel (melted wax) efficiently. 

 

Htp wicks are flat cotton core. The htp series tends to work well with natural waxes also. In my wax tests the htp wicks leaned a little too much and did not burn as efficiently as the round cotton. Htp are useful when RRD are a little too big for the wax type. Lx I consider in the same category as htp.

 

Eco wicks in my tests have a hotter flame that melts more wax, without being able to draw the fuel as efficiently. This results in deeper melt pools, and potentially far more sooting. An analogy is a car engine that "runs rich" because too much fuel is being forced through the engine.  I use eco wicks only for fragrances in my soy wax that are very difficult to burn. An eco10 in a soy wax based tin (harder to burn than coconut) is very hot. 

 

i encourage you to purchase several trial packs of different wicks to learn how they all burn for you in your particular wax. I am about to do a coconut wax wick trial with the coco83 "beads" from candle an supply. It will Follow the methodology of the wax wick test performed in C3 wax. http://www.craftserver.com/forum/68-wax-and-wick-tests/

 

If all wicks doubled in that jar are too hot, you may need to consider adding another wax to "harden" or raise the melt point of that coconut wax. 3 1/2" containers can be troublesome to double wick safely especially with wax that melts and burns so easily. 

[birdcharm]

A friendly correction @TallTayl ... htp (high temp paper) ... and I agree, the htp doesn't seem to work as well with soy as cotton, I think it may get clogged a little or something (from comments I've read, it does well with some soy blends.)

 

[TallTayl]

29 minutes ago, birdcharm said:

A friendly correction @TallTayl ... htp (high temp paper) ... and I agree, the htp doesn't seem to work as well with soy as cotton, I think it may get clogged a little or something (from comments I've read, it does well with some soy blends.)

 

From wick sellers: "HTP-105 wicks are coreless, cotton flat braid wick with paper filament throughout, providing the structural strength of a paper core wick". 

[birdcharm]

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

From wick sellers: "HTP-105 wicks are coreless, cotton flat braid wick with paper filament throughout, providing the structural strength of a paper core wick". 

 

I guess I should have said "addition" rather than "correction," as I was responding to your description:  "Htp wicks are flat cotton core"

 

Yes, they are cotton and paper. 

 

[TallTayl]

Paper wicks are another type that is recommended for thin, less viscous waxes. Reading the descriptions with premier wicking those might be preferable for multi wicked containers as they are stiffer. Precision lists a few that I had never heard of... 

http://www.precisionwicking.com/atkins/

 

my multi wicked beeswax blend tins (double and triple) get a beautiful sustained shallow melt pool, but RRD, cd, etc. wicks still start to lean, which messes up the burn. Going to test woods fully to see if that fixes any problems. If only wicks would behave! 

[madam_majed]

11 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I have a little of the northwood wax. It is very soft, and burns very easily. In a 3" metal tin the rrd40 was plenty big to achieve a full burn toward the top of the container. 

 

RRD wicks are round cotton core. I find natural waxes burn well with cotton. The RRD wicks tend to have (in my tests and waxes) a slightly cooler flame that allows the wick to use the fuel (melted wax) efficiently. 

 

Htp wicks are flat cotton core. The htp series tends to work well with natural waxes also. In my wax tests the htp wicks leaned a little too much and did not burn as efficiently as the round cotton. Htp are useful when RRD are a little too big for the wax type. Lx I consider in the same category as htp.

 

Eco wicks in my tests have a hotter flame that melts more wax, without being able to draw the fuel as efficiently. This results in deeper melt pools, and potentially far more sooting. An analogy is a car engine that "runs rich" because too much fuel is being forced through the engine.  I use eco wicks only for fragrances in my soy wax that are very difficult to burn. An eco10 in a soy wax based tin (harder to burn than coconut) is very hot. 

 

i encourage you to purchase several trial packs of different wicks to learn how they all burn for you in your particular wax. I am about to do a coconut wax wick trial with the coco83 "beads" from candle an supply. It will Follow the methodology of the wax wick test performed in C3 wax. http://www.craftserver.com/forum/68-wax-and-wick-tests/

 

If all wicks doubled in that jar are too hot, you may need to consider adding another wax to "harden" or raise the melt point of that coconut wax. 3 1/2" containers can be troublesome to double wick safely especially with wax that melts and burns so easily. 

Thanks for all the information😊 I ordered rrd 34 and will try a double wick, any experience with that?  I will post my updates as soon as I have them. Thanks! 

[madam_majed]

On 2017-11-02 at 10:43 PM, moonshine said:

the biggest misconception out there is you have to have big hot wicks for hot throw 

Like TT stated it's finding the perfect melt pool and air current and melt pools do not necessarily have to be deep either 

 

a double eco 10 in a 3-1/2 jar would be suited for like a bathroom sink and I'm not trying to be condescending either just trying to give you a visual 

your definitely getting soot from being over wicked 

coconut is a very soft wax and doesn't need much to burn alone without blending 

 

are you dead set on double wicking that jar?  I would suggest single wick with like a eco 4 maybe a 6 

adding more FO can give you more issues as well 

RRD wicks are not the same as eco you can find them at most suppliers labeled as RRD - I get mine from candles and supplies 

I Ann trying a single wick eco 6 tonight then my rrd 34 wicks are in tomorrow, I will try a double wick of that. If I still have soot problems for both of those would a double wick rrd 29 be okay?  

[TallTayl]

Just a thought on  The double rrd 29. Those two wicks in 3” wide tins handle beeswax blends and are slightly too hot toward the last half even then.

 

 They would, in my humble opinion, be far too hot with coconut wax. But do try them and see how they burn to learn how your jars perform. 

 

As your melt pool heats those wicks will begin to lean giving the false impression they are underwicked as the flames shrink.  Keep your eyes focused on the burn not the throw. Less “ throw” does not cause cracked jars and accidental fires. 

[madam_majed]

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Just a thought on  The double rrd 29. Those two wicks in 3” wide tins handle beeswax blends and are slightly too hot toward the last half even then.

 

 They would, in my humble opinion, be far too hot with coconut wax. But do try them and see how they burn to learn how your jars perform. 

 

As your melt pool heats those wicks will begin to lean giving the false impression they are underwicked as the flames shrink.  Keep your eyes focused on the burn not the throw. Less “ throw” does not cause cracked jars and accidental fires. 

Thanks! that's my main problem is the second half of the candle burning so hot it's leaving the black soot and it's driving me crazy trying to solve the problem. Would a single wick rrd 34 be  appropriate for my 3.5 " jar? 

[moonshine]

Which coco wax are you using?

 

[madam_majed]

8 minutes ago, moonshine said:

Which coco wax are you using?

 

Northwood organic coconut wax 

[moonshine]

Ok I'm not familiar with that one 

I have used the candles and supplies coconut 

I think your wax may be softer than mine so smaller wicks are a must

 

for a 3.5" jar I would try single wicking the 34 and see what you get and go up or down from there 

[TallTayl]

I would agree with starting single with a rrd34 or possibly a RRD 40. Adjust as needed.

 

you can start with a partially filled jar to get to the critical middle and second half faster. The second half of the jar drives the beginning wick. 

 

Others have luck with stiffer wick series, such as eco. Eco burn very hot, so go as small as possible with coconut.

 

the northwoods coconut wax did burn more easily than the c&s from the samples I have. The flames were larger on the northwoods and the molten wax was thinner.

 

if you can't find a small enough wick suitable for your container you can try to harden with another wax. Many options have been suggested in other coconut wax threads. 

[madam_majed]

2 hours ago, TallTayl said:

I would agree with starting single with a rrd34 or possibly a RRD 40. Adjust as needed.

 

you can start with a partially filled jar to get to the critical middle and second half faster. The second half of the jar drives the beginning wick. 

 

Others have luck with stiffer wick series, such as eco. Eco burn very hot, so go as small as possible with coconut.

 

the northwoods coconut wax did burn more easily than the c&s from the samples I have. The flames were larger on the northwoods and the molten wax was thinner.

 

if you can't find a small enough wick suitable for your container you can try to harden with another wax. Many options have been suggested in other coconut wax threads. 

So rrd 34 single wicked does not melt all the way to the edges  so I'll try the rrd 40. Double wick rrd29 is burning beautifully with awesome scent throw, but we have not reached the second half yet so fingers crossed. If I was to add a wax hardener will that put me back at square one for my testing? Aswell is that recommended to prevent the soot problem if the wax is harder? 

Thanks so much so helpful! 

[TallTayl]

There's also an rrd37 in between size. In my candles there is a big jump from rrd34 to rrd40. 

 

Anything you add add to the wax, any additive, hardener, different color or scent will mean starting a new test from the very beginning. 

 

Candles have many variables. Changing any single variable changes the entire candle. 

 

Main /major variables:

wax/waxes

wick series and size (sometimes differ between manufacturer/retailers)

fragrance 

container shape

container size & dimensions

container material (glass, metal, ceramic)

colorant

uv inhibitor

Any other additives such as soy modifier, vybar, etc. 

[madam_majed]

The double wick rrd 29 burns great, the smallest amount of soot deposited on the top edge of one side barely even noticeable. I am pleased with this but I do notice a small amount of black specks in the wax just on the top layer, nowww what is this from?! Thank for all the tips! 

[moonshine]

That's from you using 2 over sized wicks for your jar size and a very very soft wax 

 

How long did you burn the 34 for?

you do not necessarily want a full melt pool on your first burn or within a couple hours 

let it go to the end and see, unless it's tunneling straight down with zero hope of catching up you would benefit from seeing the complete results 

you seem to be stuck on wanting ginormous wicks - 2 RRD 29 in a 3.5" jar with a super soft wax is going to be way too big at the end - I will be shocked if it's not - I did this with a 100% soy with hardening additives and it's about perfect, coconut wax is like water to compared to that blend 

 

yes adding a wax hardener will have to be tested thoroughly with all your scents and it isn't an automatic soot fixer. Could cause more - no matter what you add if you use to big of wicks your going to get soot and black flecks - your wicks are probably basically popping like a bonfire leaving the ash behind 

 

can you post a picture of this candle?

how many hours at a time are you burning it and can you comfortably pick the jar up and move it? 

[madam_majed]

49 minutes ago, moonshine said:

That's from you using 2 over sized wicks for your jar size and a very very soft wax 

 

How long did you burn the 34 for?

you do not necessarily want a full melt pool on your first burn or within a couple hours 

let it go to the end and see, unless it's tunneling straight down with zero hope of catching up you would benefit from seeing the complete results 

you seem to be stuck on wanting ginormous wicks - 2 RRD 29 in a 3.5" jar with a super soft wax is going to be way too big at the end - I will be shocked if it's not - I did this with a 100% soy with hardening additives and it's about perfect, coconut wax is like water to compared to that blend 

 

yes adding a wax hardener will have to be tested thoroughly with all your scents and it isn't an automatic soot fixer. Could cause more - no matter what you add if you use to big of wicks your going to get soot and black flecks - your wicks are probably basically popping like a bonfire leaving the ash behind 

 

can you post a picture of this candle?

how many hours at a time are you burning it and can you comfortably pick the jar up and move it? 

I let the 34 burn for over over 7 hrs to see if it would eventually reach the edges, it didn't, and the 29 x2 wick I burn 4 hrs at a time, no popping st all the flames are still and calm, I can touch and move the jar below the wax line. Above it gets hot.   I am shocked after all my testing these wicks didn't leave soot. I'll post a picture of the jar