Trappeur Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Jar Used: pint canning jar Wax used: 464 Fragrance oil: added at 6% Additives: Only uv (1 teaspoon to a pound of wax) Original wick size: cd 12 Downsizing to: cd 10 and even cd 8 The original wick used for jar has always been a cd 12 but now since having to have to drop in size to a cd 10 and even a few jars a cd 8 they are rally good performing wicks with nice melt pool depth now and the entire candles burns great from beginning to end. I have been having good luck with even having to drop from 1 to 2 sizes smaller since this wax craze has started with waxes all gone wonkers. I just got to retesting vbn (WSP). From a cd 12 I now have to go to a cd8 (wow, wow, wow)....I for the first time definitely have found a certain fragrance throw now diminished. So my question is my choice of wicks have always been the cd's for this wax and now that I have done my retesting in this wax and have to go down in size and being that now that I have finalized my wick size to a cd 8 and if it burns so perfect from beginning to end.....why has the throw diminished? Why did I have fantastic throw using a cd 12 and why is it not fantastic with a proper wick now having to go to? So now what does that mean? Can't change my cd8 wick because that is the perfect one.... So what do I do now? How can a cd wick that was perfect before now be not perfect in scent throw even though I've got the wick sizing down? Trappeur 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Oh trap.... I feel your pain. It happened to me with most of my fragrances. These same fragrances are eye watering in melts. Quick test to see if my hypothesis has merit: if you put some of the wax from that candle into a melter, can you smell it? melters have a predictable temperature of melt pool. I think certain fragrances have a wick temp range required to launch them into the air effectively regardless of the melt pool size. This is why I totally disagree with the size and depth of mp being the baseline for great HT. I routinely burn a dozen candles at a time when testing. When nobody can smell a thing 'it ain't the melt pools!'. A tiny cube of my melt wax scents the entire living space in a typical melter, confirming it's got nothing to do with the melt pool size, but the temp. Rrd wicks (cotton cored) burn a little hotter near the flame with similar MP as the cd series I have been using. RRD made a HUGE difference in my first test using my dragons blood. an8 oz tin with cd16 in C3 was undetectable in my living room. I yanked the cd16 and replaced with an rrd47 and voila!!! We can smell them! They are not anywhere near what I remember from these tins, but at least I am on the right track to repair the soy change damage. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldieMN Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Is it possible that some fragrance oils need to be wicked up with the current 464 soy? I haven't even gone in that direction yet. GoldieMN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trappeur Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Oh wow TTayle.....what a different take you have on this subject.....It makes sense.....(I think)...lol I have read your post 6 times now trying to understand the philosophy you have of this situation. I have always gone by the age old supposedly correct way to develop a candle of what I have learned here from the forum. 1. Select a wick size 2. To determine the wick size the rules that say what is right and what is wrong...... A: First couple of burn testing cycles shouldn't quite reach the glass if you burn in 3 to 4 hour intervals (For me this is the diameter) B. You should have some hangup somewhat on the glass till it burns down further of which at a certain time the glass should be coming clean C. During the burning tests keep monitoring the wick and see how big you get of a flower bloom (I shouldn't be getting one) (to an extent) D. My melt pool depth during the testing stages should'nt be deep. Now I always try to keep the depth to about 3/8". I have some oils that if during real power burns they will reach a 1/2" and depending if it stays at that depth and no further I will approve that candle...just depends. E. During the burning sessions of course I'm always monitoring how strong the scent is and if I like the strength. F. What the final determination results for me that will allow for me to sell is no flower blooms, shallow melt pool (no more than 3/8") and of course a nice scent. I'm sure that probably some of my scents could probably be a little stronger if I add more oil...but I pretty much stick to 6%...Maybe a smidgeon more but that is all. If I can't smell anything and all else meets I won't use the oil again. Of course we all have to test a candle for the way the idiot candle burner burns them where we learn from power burners and then the ones who burn and burn out after an hour or so of burning. So all has to be figured out and meet together in the middle all the ways we can make a candle with safety as the foremost. I have many a candle different style jar that I have determined my wick size and that jar can take a bigger wick and produce a much more beautiful scented candle because of the heat put out from the wick as LONG AS I TRIM MY WICKS......AND KEEP THEM TRIMMED. And by trimming my wicks, this controls the melt pool depth and also eliminates black soot that can develop on the jar. This type of candle is a beautiful scented fragrance but for me. But I know if I were to approve this candle and put it out to sell to a shop those wicks are going to be too big. So I opt for the next size down in wick for the sheer safety of the candle. My consious wouldn't let me put it out there in the way I would make for myself. So what you are basically saying Tall Tayle, I need to go and try now another series of wicks even though I've never used any other wicks but cd's for 464 and htps (htp's I use for c3 generally). So now cd's might not be good enough for me with the crap wax that is coming out, I guess? I don't even know what an rrd wick is.....I was thinking of experimenting with cdn and premiers when I get time, but I'm way too busy right now for the shops trying to keep up with my orders....my oh my......So even though I have figured out what downsized size I need, it's not good enough as far as scent throw goes? So now this is the way to go until they go and reformulate the waxes again and then we start all over again? Well, I could always go back into making furniture here on my porch and making mirrors and wooden cornice boards etc...At least wood hasn't changed much in the past few centuries...... Trappeur Edited October 13, 2017 by Trappeur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Goldie I wouldn't think so - most soy in general is needing to be wicked down with the exception of C3 they are burning way hotter requiring a smaller wick trapp definitely try the RRD wicks like TT mentioned - I have been using them a lot lately and I agree 💯 with her on her hypothesis as I am seeing it myself I have used cd for years and am liking RRD so much better now I should add I have not tried them in straight 415 as I have just been testing wicking down with cd BUT with all the other blends I am experimenting with and ones with 415 added.....way better results with RRD wicks Edited October 13, 2017 by moonshine 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trappeur Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, GoldieMN said: Is it possible that some fragrance oils need to be wicked up with the current 464 soy? I haven't even gone in that direction yet. GoldieMN Trappeur 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trappeur Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, moonshine said: Goldie I wouldn't think so - most soy in general is needing to be wicked down with the exception of C3 they are burning way hotter requiring a smaller wick trapp definitely try the RRD wicks like TT mentioned - I have been using them a lot lately and I agree 💯 with her on her hypothesis as I am seeing it myself I have used cd for years and am liking RRD so much better now Really? Ok, Moonshine....how much would you charge me to tell me what wick sizes you use so I don't have to test mine? I'll GLADLY pay! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Lol in 8 ounce tins with blends I have been using mainly the 40 and 47 I would order all sizes but what jars are you needing fast results? 3" diameter with your wax being softer I would guess a starting point would be a 37 and a 40 ....@talltayl please give your recommendations as well like TT said the flame seems to be hotter throwing the Scent in the air better but the melt pools are similar to cd so I haven't really seen too hot - yet Edited October 13, 2017 by moonshine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Did you already place your order at southwest as they carry them so does candles and supplies and candlewic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trappeur Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, moonshine said: Lol in 8 ounce tins with blends I have been using mainly the 40 and 47 I would order all sizes but what jars are you needing fast results? 3" diameter with your wax being softer I would guess a starting point would be a 37 and a 40 ....@talltayl please give your recommendations as well like TT said the flame seems to be hotter throwing the Scent in the air better but the melt pools are similar to cd so I haven't really seen too hot - yet Oh god Moonshine! You answered! lol, lol.....I was only kidding! lol, lol No kidding it's just noon here, been up since 3:00 making candles and I just whipped out my chocolate wine out of the freezer....I'm not joking either. God help the ones who light one of my candles after my 3'rd chocolate wine goes down...they may have to go and get a fire extinquisher if I accidentally put a cd 22 wick in the jar that I use a cd 8 wick in....My mind is a going with thinking of what I might have to go through like all the rest of you changing wicks, doing a blend....whatever....omg Trappeur PS MOONSHINE....I WUV U! You tickled me with this post of yours...I'm still laughing Edited October 13, 2017 by Trappeur 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara AL Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I have started a new blend using 50% GB464 and 50% Flaming’s Problend 600 so far I am liking it. I am using the Premier wicks and using 8% fragrance load. Right now I am testing the Premier 760 and the 765’s in a Pint size jar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Insomnia is a bugger. Every night I Wake up between 2:30 and 3 no matter what time I hit the hay. Spent the wee hours watching Netflix "Glitch" instead of researching more, or making candles. Yesterday i dug into some really old threads here about 464, 4786 and others that got me really thinking. Sometimes if the direct approach to a problem is not working, a side step might be where the answer lies. The new soy waxes are melting too easily. At first I thought (along with others), "Great! I can use smaller wicks!" The problem is those smaller wicks are not doing the job. The soy wax is pretty heavy compared to paraffin, even at similar melt points. My tins seem too cold to throw far. I can walk around the house holding a tin with a totally full melt pool and barely feel it. The wax melts too much, too soon for the wicks to be able to get the wax and FO into the air. Today i lit a double wicked tin (two cd6) in a combo of C3 and 415 with a Hail Mary dose of 4630 made the same time as a single wicked cd16 in an 8 oz tin. The 8 oz cd16 barely is detectable after hours. The 16 oz fills the entire house in a very VERY short time. I can smell that double within 5 minutes of lighting it. The melt pool is barely wider than the wicks themselves, but darn it throws HaRD. When moonshine mentioned to me the other day that a dab of wax from a dud candle was smelling the place up in the little wax melter it was a lightbulb moment. She has a thermometer to take temps of her wax melt melter and a melt pool of a burning candle. Hopefully this will inch us closer to the solution. This is not the final answer for all wax blends and fo combos, but in my case it is a huge step forward. My candles are beginning to throw again. I have been testing dozens of different additives to find a balance between the melting point of the blend and the temps needed to throw that fragrance. Beeswax, stearic, sunflower wax, pillar blend, you name it. I have been testing it. Have also been testing the other direction (lightening up the viscosity of the soy so that the small wicks can throw better) using Coconut wax, palm, and others. That is showing positive results too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldieMN Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Northstar Country Candle ships wicks free. They have 10 count packs of RRD wicks. Does anyone else ship wicks for free? I was going to buy a sample pack from one place but shipping was $11! Yes, I'm jumping on the RRD wick bandwagon just because I love testing so much. GoldieMN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 @Trappeur the RRD sizes that are showing the most promise in my tins are rrd40, RRD 47 and for really hard to burn FO, RRD 50. The 8oz dragons blood tin mentioned above with the cd16 that would not throw is heavenly with an rrd47. I can smell it within a few minutes of lighting it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, GoldieMN said: Northstar Country Candle ships wicks free. They have 10 count packs of RRD wicks. Does anyone else ship wicks for free? I was going to buy a sample pack from one place but shipping was $11! Yes, I'm jumping on the RRD wick bandwagon just because I love testing so much. GoldieMN This may or may not solve the problems in your candles, but in my case it made a ginormous difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldieMN Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 @TallTayl I will try anything to get back to a good hot throw and will continue to follow the progress of you and others adding a dash of this, an ounce of that. I'm usually up around the same time as you. . .so is @Trappeur! Catch up on forum threads, watch the news, go back to sleep around 5. GoldieMN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 If only I could get back to sleep... Poured a few more tests Today. We shall seeeee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Mantooth Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 My testing with RRD is that they look good initially then about 1-2 hours in it looks like the candle is struggling and wick gets a big mushroom. I’m testing several wick types in 4oz tin, 6% Christmas tree fo, and I’m using soy nw Elite 200. It’s very thick and cools really quick. My tests show cd4, eco 1 and lx8 burn the best. I’m not trimming in between burns. The rrd and Cotten core I have to remove mushroom. I don’t know which wick is creating the scent, but my home is thick with good smells. I’ve almost ruled out rrd for my setup. I need to burn just the cd4 to see if it throws well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstar Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 hour ago, GoldieMN said: Northstar Country Candle ships wicks free. They have 10 count packs of RRD wicks. Does anyone else ship wicks for free? I was going to buy a sample pack from one place but shipping was $11! Yes, I'm jumping on the RRD wick bandwagon just because I love testing so much. GoldieMN You are so funny ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstar Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, Dorothy Mantooth said: My testing with RRD is that they look good initially then about 1-2 hours in it looks like the candle is struggling and wick gets a big mushroom. I’m testing several wick types in 4oz tin, 6% Christmas tree fo, and I’m using soy nw Elite 200. It’s very thick and cools really quick. My tests show cd4, eco 1 and lx8 burn the best. I’m not trimming in between burns. The rrd and Cotten core I have to remove mushroom. I don’t know which wick is creating the scent, but my home is thick with good smells. I’ve almost ruled out rrd for my setup. I need to burn just the cd4 to see if it throws well. Elite 200 ???? Why have I never heard of this wax ? May I ask where you purchase this from ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Mantooth Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Apparently I’m the only dolt using it. check it out at http://www.fillmorecontainer.com/NatureWax-Elite-200-Soy-Container-Wax-60-Case-P192.aspx?c=12 some members from 2010 I think posted about I and I’ve posted several times talking about it. Im hoping someone else will loose their mind and jump in the boat with me. Its made from the same company that makes c3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstar Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, Dorothy Mantooth said: Apparently I’m the only dolt using it. check it out at http://www.fillmorecontainer.com/NatureWax-Elite-200-Soy-Container-Wax-60-Case-P192.aspx?c=12 some members from 2010 I think posted about I and I’ve posted several times talking about it. Im hoping someone else will loose their mind and jump in the boat with me. Its made from the same company that makes c3. I just now went to check out the specs, not sure why Ive never seen this wax ? Can you tell me a little bit about your experience thus far . Is the wax picky at pouring temp - does it need a 14 day cure and how do the tops look after they cool, are they smooth or lumpy some some soy waxes ? Have you only tried Fillmore FO's Any Fo's from Fillmore that perform really well + not so well ? Thanks for bringing this wax up, I might just try a sample box - thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Without knowing what all they put in there to modify the wax it is hard to say why one wick series works better than the other. the smaller the candle, the harder I find it to wick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Mantooth Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 24 minutes ago, Moonstar said: I just now went to check out the specs, not sure why Ive never seen this wax ? Can you tell me a little bit about your experience thus far . Is the wax picky at pouring temp - does it need a 14 day cure and how do the tops look after they cool, are they smooth or lumpy some some soy waxes ? Have you only tried Fillmore FO's Any Fo's from Fillmore that perform really well + not so well ? Thanks for bringing this wax up, I might just try a sample box - thank you Their handling sheet says to cure 12 hours that seems like doody to me. I typically try to go a week before testing. I usually end up at 5 days. I’ve kept some candles 56 days before testing. It has no lumpy cottage cheese tops like other soy I tried. It’s always smooth. Im a beginner to all candlemaking, so don’t take my advice as any expert opinion. I’m on here to listen to what TT, trap,moonshine,etc has to say! Wthomas pointed out it says “complete pull away” but I haven’t had issues with it in tins. I heat it to 190, take it off heat, add fo and stir and pour immediately. I haven’t had any fo not have good ct. I’ve had a time trying to find the perfect wick, but I am trying to wick 4oz tin, which appears to be a tough size. He wax seems thick to me so it needs a pretty hot burner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trappeur Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 5 hours ago, GoldieMN said: Northstar Country Candle ships wicks free. They have 10 count packs of RRD wicks. Does anyone else ship wicks for free? I was going to buy a sample pack from one place but shipping was $11! Yes, I'm jumping on the RRD wick bandwagon just because I love testing so much. GoldieMN Well, you go girl! I guess I'm coming up right behind you Goldie.... Trappeur 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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