My first blend of any wax. 464 and 4625

[ComfortandJoy]

21 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Wow, at least an admission something was wrong at one time. 

 

This does not make make soy an attractive wax to venture into, does it? 

 

Exactly!  And, that will trickle down into the lots of coconut wax as well, since it is mixed with soy. 

[Moonstar]

1 hour ago, ComfortandJoy said:

 

Exactly!  And, that will trickle down into the lots of coconut wax as well, since it is mixed with soy. 

 

1 hour ago, ComfortandJoy said:

 

Exactly!  And, that will trickle down into the lots of coconut wax as well, since it is mixed with soy. 

So what is your gut telling you on what to either continue to try/ test 

or move on to something else

im so confused right now 😢

I'd love to hear opinions from everyone 😊

[ComfortandJoy]

50 minutes ago, Moonstar said:

 

So what is your gut telling you on what to either continue to try/ test 

or move on to something else

im so confused right now 😢

I'd love to hear opinions from everyone 😊

 

@Moonstar I feel your pain!  I am not giving up on coconut wax, I'm just realizing it too will be subject to the fluctuations affecting the performance of soy wax these days.  My gut is telling me that to achieve a good candle in this current situation with the wax problems, I'm going to have to formulate a blend of different waxes so that each one brings something to help or compensate for the issues with the other wax(es).  Unfortunately, we have been let down by the suppliers and we are basically on our own and forced to blaze new trails.  All we can do is try to help each other as best we can.

[Moonstar]

14 hours ago, moonshine said:

464 and 444 are both blended with soy additives - even though one supplier states they both have 2% added the 444 has a higher melt point - so they may be using different additives to achieve this idk....they both state up to a 10% fragrance load which doesn't always mean to use that as issues come into play with more FO and wicking 

before switching waxes try using additives to firm and slow that burn using a wick that will get that center hot enough to dispurse in the air without causing the entire candle to get to hot 

I am still sorting this all out myself but I use 415 and I can't get anywhere the throw as a hard as rock Mccalls candle so in saying a lower melt point wax is easier to create Scent throw....I am not seeing it myself 

paraffin is a firmer wax than soy and throws much better with half the FO load 

with your 444 try adding beeswax or stearic and wick up 

Now the McCalls wax bars ( thats what they call their melts due to the shape of the clamshell) that wax isn't rock hard,especially after I turn my Scentsy melter off.

When the melted wax hardens its way softer. Also, I noticed the tops, sink in similar to the KY pillar/tart wax + the pillar/votive blend from American Soy Organics

they both have the same dip even though I fill the cups to the brim. Maybe they shrink ??? IDK ??? Don't get me wrong, its not vaseline soft just not really hard. Im 

sure the candles are different than the melts. Im almost positive McCalls candles are paraffin ???

[Moonstar]

@ComfortandJoy  I like your attitude + thinking . Im all for helping each other out  Now I feel better about ordering a bag of coconut wax lol ! Unfortunately, I don't 

have endless funds lol  So Im gonna try a few blends, one with coconut + soy and one with soy + some palm wax. I think for the heck of it Im going to try the Millennium

wax from American Soy Organics .Ive ordered soy + palm wax blend candles from Etsy in the past and they were excellent. Im an Etsy junkie though lol ! love the B+B and 

candle shops. SO many good ones  I have to say theres a few shops on there that have some of the best candles Ive ever tried at a fraction of the cost of high end 

candles and they are hands down way better  

[ComfortandJoy]

31 minutes ago, Moonstar said:

@ComfortandJoy  I like your attitude + thinking . Im all for helping each other out  Now I feel better about ordering a bag of coconut wax lol ! Unfortunately, I don't 

have endless funds lol  So Im gonna try a few blends, one with coconut + soy and one with soy + some palm wax. I think for the heck of it Im going to try the Millennium

wax from American Soy Organics .Ive ordered soy + palm wax blend candles from Etsy in the past and they were excellent. Im an Etsy junkie though lol ! love the B+B and 

candle shops. SO many good ones  I have to say theres a few shops on there that have some of the best candles Ive ever tried at a fraction of the cost of high end 

candles and they are hands down way better  

 

@Moonstar Sounds like a plan!   And, we are in good company here - lots of knowledgable people!

 

I love Etsy shops, too!  I almost buy as much as I sell there! 

[moonshine]

1 hour ago, Moonstar said:

Now the McCalls wax bars ( thats what they call their melts due to the shape of the clamshell) that wax isn't rock hard,especially after I turn my Scentsy melter off.

When the melted wax hardens its way softer. Also, I noticed the tops, sink in similar to the KY pillar/tart wax + the pillar/votive blend from American Soy Organics

they both have the same dip even though I fill the cups to the brim. Maybe they shrink ??? IDK ??? Don't get me wrong, its not vaseline soft just not really hard. Im 

sure the candles are different than the melts. Im almost positive McCalls candles are paraffin ???

I haven't tried their melts at all 

their candles are rock hard premium paraffin ....whatever that could be and they throw instantly 

[moonshine]

Moonstar if you haven't ordered millineum let me know - you can have mine - it's not a bad wax at all but I'm determined to make the 415 work in one way or another 

[Trappeur]

14 hours ago, moonshine said:

Moonstar if you haven't ordered millineum let me know - you can have mine - it's not a bad wax at all but I'm determined to make the 415 work in one way or another 

That is exactly what I'm doing too....I'm going to make 464 work one way or another.  

 

Number 1 I don't have endless funds to order all these waxes and start over and start different wicks, etc.....I've only used since I have been making candles all these years, just c3, 415 and 464....I love c3 and  415 was pretty good for me too..just settled on 464....It's a great wax and it just needs tweaking and I WILL find the common denominator to pull this off....I will...Not boosting myself up in any way, but I'm proud that I can make a candle and sell to shops where they order over and over and order.  It tellsl me I must be doing something right if they have repeat customers.

 

I see so many here ordering all these different waxes which isn't cheap and so much testing going on trying to find the best combinations and sharing all info....I'm in such awe...but I just can't do that myself...I've dropped down 1 to 2 wicks sizes on all my jars and tins and I've got it working for me.   Maybe my perception of a great throwing candle is not someone elses perception, but it works for me and my accounts....Now I am very very particular what scents I offer to all the shops I sell to.  I go with STRONG scents and offer just that....I have yet to hear one negative comment from any account as of yet....but maybe one day I will be getting one.  Till that day comes I'll continue what I'm doing but I will along the way as present day today try testing with some additives and see if I can perfect an even better candle...I've never done anything like that, but I'm all open ears and always looking for a way to improve and make an even nicer product.

 

Thanks everyone for sharing all your secrets and for helping one another here on this forum.  I've always done that myself to help others....or at least try.

 

Trappeur

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Trappeur

[TallTayl]

@Trappeur do you have any c3 left in your stash? I blended c3 and 415 this past summer to help solve issues with each wax. 415 and 464 burn similarly. C3 has a  higher burning temperature than 415 and 464. I blended 50-50. 

[Trappeur]

I don't think so TTayle....I'll order a little bit today since I have to order from Flaming.  That's a great idea!  I love that...they wick pretty similar and both are the same price for 50 pounds....Great ideal..I will do just that.

 

Trappeur

[Trappeur]

Here are a couple pictures of testing with different wicks sizes:

Jar:                     12oz status (elite from flaming)

wax:                     464

Original wick:    Was cd14

This is the first burn.

Oil:                      Christmas Hearth (Cs)  well cured

Wicks:               CD 8 and cd 10 and cd 12

The last picture is after this burn hardened

They all burned the same - melt pool depth was the same.  The best throw is a tie between 10 and 12.  The 12 burned the fastest.  Once I get towards the bottom will determine how deep of course the pool depth will be.  All jars not hot to pickup....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is an italian canning jar (Bormioli - is 17 oz)

Wax:                                 464

Oil:                                   Christmas Hearth

Burn:                               first burn

Original wick:                cd 16

Note:                              Widest point of jar is 4".....I always use cd 16 because of the widest part.  Jar always burned perfect.   Of course struggled somewhat but not really bad when it got to the wide part of jar, but the burn moved right along....just took longer to get through this part..but went extremely well.

 

New wicks in this picture:       cd 14 on left and cd 16 on right

 

Note;                                           I need to stick I believe to the 16 I'm thinking.  I'm doing the 2'nd test now and I think the 14 is having too hard a time to get started as they are both in the wide part starting off.  The throw is better on the 16.  Will post more pictures later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Trappeur

[Trappeur]

Tall Tayle.....ok, I'm trying to understand what this whole problem is with these waxes....

 

Am I understanding it in the correct way that what has happened with these waxes is that there has been a decrease in the fat content in wax...what you call trans fat?   Are you saying that the waxes have not been reformulated but that the process of growing the soy has resulted in loss of fat content?

 

So are you saying that with the loss of the trans fat has made the wax more or less not as heavy as it used to be so that when we put a wick in it it is melting too quick and we are just not getting the strength of the fragrance meaning the fragrance needs the fat to perform like it used to?

 

So now we have to add an additive to make up for this loss of fat?

 

So I'm thinking because the soy is lacking the fat, it now burns faster and gets a melt across the candle much faster and being that we now have to decrease wick size to get the correct melt across the candle but the heat from the smaller wick is just not hot enough for the oil to be activated.  Do I have my thinking all wrong?

 

This is so hard for me to understand....I'm sorry.

 

Trappeur

[TallTayl]

The growing conditions of soybeans is always uncontrollable. Some areas out here in the Midwest have flood seasons others have a droughts. There is no way to control that. So I throw that right out the window.

 

 What did change was the requirement for zero trans fats in food oils. That was the published fact. So something has changed in the production of soy bean oil/soybean wax since the FDA requirement was mandated. 

 

 What I experienced with these waxes is they melt very very easily. Fragrances and waxes and oils need certain temperatures (energy) to become volatile enough to get into the air. As we lower our wick size to compensate for the easy melt we are losing that energy needed to get the heavy veg oil/wax and fragrance into the air. 

 

Paraffin is generally thin/light compared to heavier/denser soy. This explains why a paraffin candle wicked with a very cool zinc wick can throw very well. It takes less energy to throw something light into the air than something heavy. The same holds true for coconut wax. Coconut oil/wax is very light compared to Soy. 

 

I am searching for molecular views of these various waxes to help prove or disprove my thoughts.

 

 Knowing that the temperature these soy waxes are melting at is lower, yet they still require the same amount of energy/heat to get into the air, the first step logically to me is to raise that melt point so that the right wick can generate enough heat and get it into the air. 

 

 

[TallTayl]

While I was mucking my stalls the other day analogies were running through my head. Imagine waxes on a molecular scale to be like balls. Paraffin wax is generally like a ping-pong ball. Soy wax is like a base ball.    Beeswax is like a bowling ball. 

 

Now imagine you are trying to get and keep a ball in the air by blowing through a straw.   How much effort would it take to blow a ping-pong ball into the air? Pretty easy right? A coffee straw would do the trick with little effort from your lungs. 

 

 How much effort would it take to blow that baseball into the air? A lot more right? And probably a bigger straw to keep enough air moving to prevent it from falling back on your face. 

 

 Finally that bowling ball. How big of a straw and how hard would you have to blow to get that into the air at all let alone keep it there? 

 

 Those straws you're blowing through are the wicks. The force that you have to blow is the heat energy applied to the fuel. We can't expect to keep a baseball in the air using the same straw we used for the ping-pong ball. So we can either use a bigger straw Or lighten the baseball so it's more like a ping-pong ball.

[grama]

Haven't read all the comments but I use 4625 for pillars & votives and do a 50/50 mix with 4786 for melts.  I think 4625 by itself for melts may be to hard, for me it was. I pour 4625 around 180-185.

 

[TallTayl]

@Trappeur  One last thought because this is a lot to digest in one sitting.... 

 

you also need to match the rate of consumption of your wick with how well it melts the fuel. Sometimes you need to wick up instead of down.  I discovered this while making small diameter beeswax candles. The 2 inch beeswax pillar is notoriously difficult to wick because the melt pool gets very wide and wants to blow out the side. Wicking down caused the problem to become worse. Wicking  up to balance the wick's consumption to the amount of melt pool it created solves the problem. Now it's too big of a wick for me to feel comfortable but that is What the candle needed. I decided not to sell that size at this time.

[Trappeur]

Ok, gotcha TT on the missing component....the fat content.  Geesh, I know I must look like an idiot asking all these questions for as long as I have been  making candles, but you see I never had a problem with scent throw in making candles.  I just learned how to make them, perfect them with the right wicks and just make sure the oil I used was compatable with the wax meaning it was a good thrower.  I never had a reason to use additives and most people who are on the forum from what I have read don't use any additives and reading briefly what they say about wax is that no additives are necessary, so I never bothered to learn about the hows and whys about all these additives but now I guess there is concern.   So now I'm learning now!  Quite honestly I know I have had to reduce all wick sizes and I still smell the fragrances quite nicely.. Maybe I better start sending out samples to you guys on the board hear and you evaluate my candles???

 

On another note, I looked up palm stearic acid, and stearic acid and USA...From what I understand these additives are nothing but hardeners and used for nice finishes on candles.  They say that using this additive MAY  (they say "may") help in higher fragrance loads....The problem from what I'm seeing is not the higher fragrance load but fragrance throw.   So if the missing component is lack of fat, why bother with any of these additives. ?

 

Trappeur

[TallTayl]

Because it's not necessarily a lack of fat. Trans is just one type of *many* fats. A lack of trans fats  may or may not have anything at all to do with the throw of these candles. Coconut oil has none of those fats,  yet I can make a coconut candle fill my house with fragrance. Beeswax has none of those fats, yet again I can fill my house with plenty of fragrance. Let's forget about trans fats as were talking about burning wax.

 

From what I'm seeing in my experiments, and I have done literally hundreds (I'll post pictures one day) is it's the temperature and  rate of consumption that you're getting that wax to in order to get it into the air. 

 

As far as other peoples anecdotal chimings that they haven't seen any difference, I take that all with a teeny tiny grain of salt.  

 

I buy commercial and small maker candles all the time. I have noticed a difference. A big difference in some cases.  All we do as makers is meet our customers expectations. I am burning white barn candles in my kitchen today. Burning mccalls candles in other rooms. All are disappointing in their own ways. My experience is very different from thousands of others. My expectations are different. Each retailer has target customers that are thrilled so they stay in business. 

 

Think about how those folks on YouTube expect a candle to burn? I have some candles that would burn a melt pool completely to the bottom of the candle and they're considered "good" by the makers and reviewers.

 

My customers expect something totally different than those. 

[TallTayl]

If you ever get a chance to visit a white barn candle take a look at their educational displays. One display has a bunch of WIck trailing out of it. The sign was something to the effect that they have over 50 wiick combinations depending on the candles and the fragrances in the waxes.

[GoldieMN]

@Trappeur you are summarizing and asking great questions.  Thanks to all of you who are supplying answers and testing.   If I had great results in my testing, I would pipe up.  But, for now, will keep trying my Premiers and the RRDs which I ordered this week.  Will add to the discussion once I get a good hot throw.

GoldieMN

[TallTayl]

As for why suppliers waxes are behaving differently now than before when you could just literally stick a Wick in it: I don't think they realize the problem yet.  

 

Retailers don't care because most user supplied answers are just add more fragrance. Why would they argue with that? 

 

  Wax manufacturers are going by a set of tolerances as far as melting point, moisture levels, color, etc. They adjust to what they are told to adjust to based on old tech stats. Some manufacturers use very different additives.  

 

The only manufacturer back at the drawing board is golden brands.  the widelydiscrepant test results in their new Q210 tells us it's not easy to engineer a perfect wax. 

 

They did initial work for us, but that is now outdated. It is up to us to understand our materials to create the best performing candle we can. 

 

The wax manufacturer could never possibly predict what fragrances we would put in their wax. It is up to us to know how to modify that to keep a safe candle.

 

[TallTayl]

The further you are removed from your end user The less feedback you will get.

 

I get hardly any feedback at all from wholesale accounts. My wholesale accounts are boutique type shops were people may not ever go back to return to shop.  They buy a souvenir because it is cute or it smells nice. It keeps me in business with tourism.

 

 

At My Summer faire I am with those people for nine straight weeks. They alert me immediately when They notice a change. I Face them every day. 

 

Quite a few of my customers don't burn my candles at all. They open them on their work desks and enjoy them and never knew there was a burn problem. 

 

 The ones that do burn my candles are vocal about problems. That is how I found out C3 had changed. I got complaints directly from them. I see the pictures of their candles burning on Facebook. They tell their friends. I have to react quickly or risk losing my entire revenue stream.

[Kerven]

I'm curious to see whether or not surfactants, defoamer/antifoaming agents, and viscosity adjusters can alter the surface tension of the melt pool in heavy waxes enough for better throw. It wouldn't fix wax and wick incompatibilities, I imagine, but might boost throw in viscous waxes. I think one of the reasons people like the coconut waxes so much is that they are much lighter and less viscous than the soy waxes and have supposedly better throw. Just theorycrafting.

 

I read not long ago that C3's performance could be improved with the addition of fatty alcohols.

[TallTayl]

1 minute ago, Kerven said:

I'm curious to see whether or not surfactants, defoamer/antifoaming agents, and viscosity adjusters can alter the surface tension of the melt pool in heavy waxes enough for better throw. It wouldn't fix wax and wick incompatibilities, I imagine, but might boost throw in viscous waxes. I think one of the reasons people like the coconut waxes so much is that they are much lighter and less viscous than the soy waxes and have supposedly better throw. Just theorycrafting.

 

I read not long ago that C3's performance could be improved with the addition of fatty alcohols.

I am leery of putting too much into a burning candle that my Off gas something.

 

The answer is to create enough convection to move scent.

 

ever notice when you don't smell a burning candle, then blow it out,  often you can smell it clearly? That little bit of air to heat the flame temporarily (more combustion) and air current distributes that smell... I think we can rely on centuries old methods to solve our current day problems.