fablefire Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Background: A client commissioned me to develop a line of scent-free, colored candles for his business. I learned how to make them by scouring the internet (including this forum) and finally settled on 464, ECO wicks, and 8oz tapered jelly jars. They're pretty great. But THEN I thought I'd look into doing my own small candle business using FOs and started having all sorts of issues with my new batches of ECO wicks... 1) Is there an issue with ECO wick consistency? I've read mixed reviews. Some people love them. Some websites recommend them as the go-to wick for 464. And others are upset, like me. I made little test batches using 1oz FO samples, yielding me three candles in the 8oz jelly jars (using 1oz FO to 18.4oz 464) with one ECO8 wick jar and two ECO10 wick jars to compare. The ECO10 wicks burn differently from each other despite being from the same batch. Some of them even self extinguish in 15-30 minutes, while the other 10 from the batch burns fine. Sometimes the hot throw is great on one and weak on another - from the same batch, both ECO10 wicks. What's going on? Oh. I'm not sure if it matters, but I mix FO and dye at 185F and pour around 135F (give or take a few degrees). Jars pre-warmed in the oven. Everything looks pretty, minus a few little sinkholes. The candles cured for 7-8 days before testing. 2) How long should I let the 464 cure before testing wicks? I've read that some people say one week and others swear by two. Will waiting that extra week have an impact on which wick I choose? Or would I make the same wick decision at one week? What's the shortest time for curing 464 where you would feel safe selecting a wick? 3) Anyone have wick recommendations for Premiers or CDs in the 8oz jelly jars (2.75in diameter)? I bought all six sizes of each brand that fell in the "2-3in" category. Am I being wasteful by testing all 6 sizes? 4) How long is your timeline for testing and developing new products for sale? This may be a dumb noob thing for me to try, but I was hoping to get 6-9 different FOs in my shop at launch, and hoping to launch in mid October. When the ECOs started going wonky, it totally threw off my timeline and now I am rushing and trying to pick a new wick. With potentially 14 days for cure time, 8 days for normal testing (4hr burns) and 3 days for power testing (8-12hr burns), that leaves me with a 25 day dev time - IF everything goes right, that is. Am I doing it wrong? My ultimate goal is a good product that I love and have confidence in. If I have to push my launch out a bit to get that, then that's okay. I reeeeeeally wanted to make the most of the pumpkin season, but I would rather wait than put out an iffy product. This whole mess with the ECOs has given me a massive headache and I want to put together a realistic timeline before I cry in my candles. And BTW, as someone who has lurked for months on this forum, gleaning every bit of info that I can from you guys, thank you very much for all of your help so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Sorry but having a good, safe, saleable candle ready for October is an unreasonable expectation. It can take months to a couple of years testing to get that far. I am also concerned that you took this assignment without being an experienced chandler. If you want to make candles your first priority should be to make ones that are safe, burn and scent well. This can only be achieved with thorough testing and diligence. Your initial testing should be with the wax, wick, and jar only. This will be by far the hardest part of your testing. Getting the wicking down is paramount to having a safe candle with an optimal burn. Get to know your wax inside and out and how it works before taking on additives like fragrance or color. Any additives add to the equation and may effect the quality of the burn. If you don't know your wax first you will have a harder time eliminating any problems. Once you have your wicking down you may start with additives like scent and color. You may even find you need to change your wick size up or down or completely out. That's how much a single additive can change the candle burn. There are a lot of people here who can help you out with your wax and wick selection and I hope they chime in for you. Please don't give up because it is more involved than you were expecting. I hope you are willing to take on this challenge as making candles can be fun, exciting and also rewarding. Especially when your customer comes back and tells you what a great candle it was and they want more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fablefire Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 38 minutes ago, Candybee said: Sorry but having a good, safe, saleable candle ready for October is an unreasonable expectation. It can take months to a couple of years testing to get that far. I am also concerned that you took this assignment without being an experienced chandler. If you want to make candles your first priority should be to make ones that are safe, burn and scent well. This can only be achieved with thorough testing and diligence. Your initial testing should be with the wax, wick, and jar only. This will be by far the hardest part of your testing. Getting the wicking down is paramount to having a safe candle with an optimal burn. Get to know your wax inside and out and how it works before taking on additives like fragrance or color. Any additives add to the equation and may effect the quality of the burn. If you don't know your wax first you will have a harder time eliminating any problems. Once you have your wicking down you may start with additives like scent and color. You may even find you need to change your wick size up or down or completely out. That's how much a single additive can change the candle burn. There are a lot of people here who can help you out with your wax and wick selection and I hope they chime in for you. Please don't give up because it is more involved than you were expecting. I hope you are willing to take on this challenge as making candles can be fun, exciting and also rewarding. Especially when your customer comes back and tells you what a great candle it was and they want more. Thank you! I will toss that timeline right out the window then. I have been testing the scent-free candles for the client all summer. I've made dozens of plain, no-color 464 in these jars with the ECOs. Then I added colors. Made dozens with the 464, these jars, and the ECOs. It all went extremely smooth and consistently. Then I started to dabble in the FO candles. I guess I was expecting it to be a smooth process like the other non-scented batches have been. The scent-free, consistently tested candles are for the client. The FOs are new and just for my own personal business, so there's no actual deadline or client or anything. I guess maybe I was just really lucky with the non-scented candles? I'll keep working on it. I enjoy it so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 What size Eco wick did you put in those unscented dyed jelly jars for your friend to sell? did you power burn them like a consumer may from start to finish to see how hot they get unattended several times? eco is a very hot wick and 464 is a very soft soy....recent changes in the soy industry have resulted in very experienced chandlers having to work out serious issues with burns and 464 being one that is burning way hotter than normal so I am a little concerned in such a short time you have product going out into consumers hands do you have insurance? Is the product labeled correctly? when you started dabbling in adding fragrance was this a new batch of wax? Where are you buying your wax and Eco wicks? candy has pretty much said it all in her advice to you and we are all willing to help you along the way so long as you understand becoming a chandler is not an overnight occurrence- it will take tons of Time, tests and money and insurance is a must if your anyone outside of you is burning your candles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, fablefire said: Thank you! I will toss that timeline right out the window then. I have been testing the scent-free candles for the client all summer. I've made dozens of plain, no-color 464 in these jars with the ECOs. Then I added colors. Made dozens with the 464, these jars, and the ECOs. It all went extremely smooth and consistently. Then I started to dabble in the FO candles. I guess I was expecting it to be a smooth process like the other non-scented batches have been. The scent-free, consistently tested candles are for the client. The FOs are new and just for my own personal business, so there's no actual deadline or client or anything. I guess maybe I was just really lucky with the non-scented candles? I'll keep working on it. I enjoy it so far. Thanks for clarifying your efforts so far. Sounds like you have started out on the right path. Moonshine's post made a significant point you need to take into account when testing. The wax industry, especially soy waxes, have been modified according to recent FDA guidelines re hydrogenated fats. So many experienced chandlers using the same wax for years are finding they have to retest as the wax has changed in a dramatic way effecting the way it burns and behaves. The trick is to test each new batch of wax even if its the same wax you ordered before. Get in the habit of paying attention to the lot numbers for your wax. Every case has a lot number from the manufacturer. These are readily available on the case somewhere. If something is wrong with the wax you can identify the batch by the lot number. This is in addition to your regular wax testing for your candles. You still want to test your candle assembly for proper wicking. Edited September 8, 2017 by Candybee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fablefire Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 7 hours ago, moonshine said: What size Eco wick did you put in those unscented dyed jelly jars for your friend to sell? did you power burn them like a consumer may from start to finish to see how hot they get unattended several times? eco is a very hot wick and 464 is a very soft soy....recent changes in the soy industry have resulted in very experienced chandlers having to work out serious issues with burns and 464 being one that is burning way hotter than normal so I am a little concerned in such a short time you have product going out into consumers hands do you have insurance? Is the product labeled correctly? when you started dabbling in adding fragrance was this a new batch of wax? Where are you buying your wax and Eco wicks? candy has pretty much said it all in her advice to you and we are all willing to help you along the way so long as you understand becoming a chandler is not an overnight occurrence- it will take tons of Time, tests and money and insurance is a must if your anyone outside of you is burning your candles - I tested ECO 6, 8, 10, 12, and it's always come back to 8 vs 10. The 8s look like they start weak vs the 10s that get that perfect initial melt pool. By the end, the 8s are uuusually the best option as the 10s get a big flame and leave a bunch of soot, even with wick trimming - which is a pain in the butt with the ECO. - For my power burn, I burned them for as long as I was awake, which is usually about 14-16hrs. I don't feel comfortable letting them go unattended while I sleep. Am I supposed to let them burn while I sleep? D: - Zero candles have been sold or given to consumers so far. Despite having a consistent unscented candle product for awhile, I've been waiting on some info from the client (for packaging purposes) and was going to do legal this month. I plan on doing an LLC with proper insurance, but no need to incorporate early if client is dragging his heels. Or if the product dev on the non-client, scented candles isn't coming along either haha. If I can't get a safe product for the holidays, it would probably be more advantageous to start in the new fiscal year. - The products have those little warning stickers. Do I need more? - When I dabbled in adding fragrance, it was the same batch of wax, but new bags of ECOs. - I bought the 464 and ECOs from CandleScience. My new order of Premiers and CDs are from The Flaming Candle Co. So what does "tons of time, tests, and money..." look like to you? When you are working on a new FO/dye combo, how much time and how many tests do you anticipate? What's your litmus test for "ahah! it's finally ready"? Also how do you work with the instability in the soy industry? Inconsistent materials is a nightmare. Do you retest each product in every new 50lb bag/box of wax? Do you test only if it's from a different lot number? Do I have to test every new bag of wicks too? And thank you for the help. I fully understand that the development process can take time. I thought maybe I had gotten lucky with the wax/wick/container combo when the unscented candles came together so easily and consistently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fablefire Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 7 hours ago, Candybee said: Thanks for clarifying your efforts so far. Sounds like you have started out on the right path. Moonshine's post made a significant point you need to take into account when testing. The wax industry, especially soy waxes, have been modified according to recent FDA guidelines re hydrogenated fats. So many experienced chandlers using the same wax for years are finding they have to retest as the wax has changed in a dramatic way effecting the way it burns and behaves. The trick is to test each new batch of wax even if its the same wax you ordered before. Get in the habit of paying attention to the lot numbers for your wax. Every case has a lot number from the manufacturer. These are readily available on the case somewhere. If something is wrong with the wax you can identify the batch by the lot number. This is in addition to your regular wax testing for your candles. You still want to test your candle assembly for proper wicking. No problem. This forum is actually the reason why I started out the way I did, so thank you! Okay. So when I get a new lot of wax, what is the recommended approach? Do I test plain, unaltered wax candles to specifically test the wax without any additives? Do I just use my existing recipes and do a test batch in each lot? And what would you consider to be a sufficient sample size? What's your litmus test for "okay this is good to go"? Three good candles? Twelve good candles? Three good, separate batches of candles? How do you know it's ready for sale? Also, what do you do if you get a weird batch of wax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldieMN Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Just backing up a bit concerning different throws from same batch. I didn't notice, how long are you stirring the wax once you add the fragrance? I stir for three minutes. I use 464, Premier wicks, and pint canning jars so mine are bigger. With the changes in this wax during the past year, I've had to go from a 785 or 790 wick to a 770 to get a decent hot throw. I also am having success with CD10 wicks. So if you are using a jelly jar, I would test with something under 770. I wait two weeks before burning my test candles. Test burns are 4 hours, then 8 hours. Have you tried pouring your testers without wicks and then poking a hole down the center with a skewer/something similar, and sticking a wick down into the hole? If a wick isn't going to work, you may find out right away and can pull that wick out and try a different size. I'm usually looking for a good hot throw but not a hot jar before giving up and trying a different wick. I had to start doing this as I was spending way too much time with this darn new batch of soy and the two-week cure time. Hopefully, this all works out so I only have to test one jar then pour a dozen to sell. If I don't get a good hot throw from a fragrance I use to get a good hot throw from, I test again. Also, with the new soy wax problems, I will be testing every batch ordered with every fragrance. What a pain! What fragrances are you testing and from where? Maybe some of us using 464 can give you fall/holiday fragrance suggestions to get you going faster. @Trappeur may actually use that jar with her 464. Hang in there. Goldie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fablefire Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 38 minutes ago, GoldieMN said: Just backing up a bit concerning different throws from same batch. I didn't notice, how long are you stirring the wax once you add the fragrance? I stir for three minutes. I use 464, Premier wicks, and pint canning jars so mine are bigger. With the changes in this wax during the past year, I've had to go from a 785 or 790 wick to a 770 to get a decent hot throw. I also am having success with CD10 wicks. So if you are using a jelly jar, I would test with something under 770. I wait two weeks before burning my test candles. Test burns are 4 hours, then 8 hours. Have you tried pouring your testers without wicks and then poking a hole down the center with a skewer/something similar, and sticking a wick down into the hole? If a wick isn't going to work, you may find out right away and can pull that wick out and try a different size. I'm usually looking for a good hot throw but not a hot jar before giving up and trying a different wick. I had to start doing this as I was spending way too much time with this darn new batch of soy and the two-week cure time. Hopefully, this all works out so I only have to test one jar then pour a dozen to sell. If I don't get a good hot throw from a fragrance I use to get a good hot throw from, I test again. Also, with the new soy wax problems, I will be testing every batch ordered with every fragrance. What a pain! What fragrances are you testing and from where? Maybe some of us using 464 can give you fall/holiday fragrance suggestions to get you going faster. @Trappeur may actually use that jar with her 464. Hang in there. Goldie I stir for a good three minutes in every batch. Sorry, I forgot to include that. :x I had no idea I could put a hole in the candle. I thought I had to just melt it down and rewick or start from scratch. That's awesome. Does the wax adhesion to the wick make a difference? I imagine that if you drill a hole, there will be a little bit of space between the wick and the wax immediately. Or do you use a heat gun after inserting the wick to make sure the wax is right up to the wick? This would be so cool. Bums me out when I have a candle that clearly needs another wick but being able to switch like that would be fantastic. The two week cure time is painful with seasonal FO. Since you test every new batch of wax, how many candles do you make for each test batch? Do you use a range of wick sizes when testing a new batch of wax or just start with the wick size that worked last time? At what point do you say, "okay, this passes and I can make some for sale now"? Three successful candles? Six? I really want to get a good testing protocol so that I have confidence in my product. Part of why I started making candles is because I got tired of store bought candles fizzling out and not working. I don't want my business to have iffy product too. I started with CandleScience FOs. I have also bought and tried some from Flaming and NorthWood, but the CS ones I picked up smelled so amazing (when they work) that if I could get those in my shop, I'd be a very happy camper. Actually, the cold throw on some of these is so amazing that they make me pretty happy without lighting haha. My fall CS FOs are Very Vanilla, Cinnamon Buns, Hazelnut Coffee, Fireside, Toasted Pumpkin Spice, Pumpkin Souffle, Pumpkin and Caramel, Apple Harvest, Macintosh, and Apple Maple Bourbon. My CS holiday contender samples are Gingerbread, Hansel and Gretel, Snickerdoodle, Amaretto Nog, Merry Mistletoe, Holly Berry, Mulled Cider and Chestnuts, Wassail, Christmas Hearth, Cranberry Marmalade, Cinnamon Stick, Cranberry Woods, Peppermint Bark, and Mistletoe. Have not made test batches out of all the holiday samples due to a massive heat wave we had in Portland. I didn't want the extreme heat to be a variable in the process. So it sounds like for testing, I will wait 2 weeks for curing, then continue with the 4hr and 8hr power burn tests. Now I just need to figure out how many to make and what the litmus test is for knowing when a product is ready for sale. I really appreciate the help. Thank you! I was shooting for mid October with a "just to see if I can pull it off" mindset, but figured if I missed the fall scent window I could move on to winter scents. Incorporating in January at the beginning of the fiscal year does have some perks. Plus I really want a good product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, fablefire said: - I tested ECO 6, 8, 10, 12, and it's always come back to 8 vs 10. The 8s look like they start weak vs the 10s that get that perfect initial melt pool. By the end, the 8s are uuusually the best option as the 10s get a big flame and leave a bunch of soot, even with wick trimming - which is a pain in the butt with the ECO. - For my power burn, I burned them for as long as I was awake, which is usually about 14-16hrs. I don't feel comfortable letting them go unattended while I sleep. Am I supposed to let them burn while I sleep? D: - Zero candles have been sold or given to consumers so far. Despite having a consistent unscented candle product for awhile, I've been waiting on some info from the client (for packaging purposes) and was going to do legal this month. I plan on doing an LLC with proper insurance, but no need to incorporate early if client is dragging his heels. Or if the product dev on the non-client, scented candles isn't coming along either haha. If I can't get a safe product for the holidays, it would probably be more advantageous to start in the new fiscal year. - The products have those little warning stickers. Do I need more? - When I dabbled in adding fragrance, it was the same batch of wax, but new bags of ECOs. - I bought the 464 and ECOs from CandleScience. My new order of Premiers and CDs are from The Flaming Candle Co. So what does "tons of time, tests, and money..." look like to you? When you are working on a new FO/dye combo, how much time and how many tests do you anticipate? What's your litmus test for "ahah! it's finally ready"? Also how do you work with the instability in the soy industry? Inconsistent materials is a nightmare. Do you retest each product in every new 50lb bag/box of wax? Do you test only if it's from a different lot number? Do I have to test every new bag of wicks too? And thank you for the help. I fully understand that the development process can take time. I thought maybe I had gotten lucky with the wax/wick/container combo when the unscented candles came together so easily and consistently... ??sounds like you are testing correctly and no I wouldn't burn them while your sleeping - 14-16 hours is a plenty good power burn to see how it behaves Warning labels from suppliers are good and cover all the basics - there are a few threads on here that go over the rest of product information needed on the label like company name- a form of contact- net weight in ounces and grams the new bags of eco's could be the culprit- it's hard to say but are you saying the 10's are burning different in the same batch of wax and with same fragrance or same batch but different fragrance? Time tests and money is very variable but I have been doing this for 10 years and back to square one testing again...you will know when your ready if your serious and want to put out an exceptional product, not just anything to turn a buck if that makes sense I was pretty confident after about a year to market them, granted I have a full time job and only had limited time available to me to work on it but I also put a lot of time into my branding and the look I wanted as well - I started with one wax and didn't like it - tested another and wasn't totally in love and then tried 464- that was what I first launched for sale but I still wasn't completely satisfied with my results even though I had a safe candle and it threw decent and so I switched again to 415 and have been using it for years without a problem - as far as time and tests I started with just the wax and one jar and 2 series of wicks - for me I found the cd and CDN worked best and then I started with adding fragrances and had it narrowed down to 3 different wick sizes for all the fragrances I wanted to carry so I would make 3 test candles for each new fragrance and see which one performed the best and the winner would then get power burned once you learn your wax you will see you will kind of be able to predict how it's going to act, heavier fragrances needing a starting point of a bigger wick or very light fragrances or certain companies needing a wick or two down in size or vs Versa starting out with soy has its advantages imo because it truly is a harder wax to deal with and now with the changes it's extremely hard so working with other waxes like parasoy and paraffin doesn't seem so intimidating and to me actually much much easier I have never had a problem in all the years making soy candles like this - but I have heard stories of others people's cases being so different quite frequently - I do make a tester jar for every batch made to make sure their isn't something way off and this years lots are definitely way off this is a first for me in having to deal with this but I'm starting over burning the wax naked with my wicks and then adding fragrance in and I'm finding I have to wick down now and I'm losing throw - I have close to a hundred fragrances and I am on the fence about plugging forward with this wax or switching over to a parasoy blend instead my opinion with the 464 is ditch the eco wicks - I would try the CD and premier, keep plugging away and you you will know after several tests and many fragrances getting consistent results when your ready To sell dealing with instability in soy has always been there but now it's really here...especially with ecosoya just launching all theirs completely reformulated after pulling them for a long time but it can be done, don't lose hope and keep at it - it's fun and rewarding and your house will always smell awesome ? Soy does need a longer cure - I wait about 5 days but the longer the better Edited September 9, 2017 by moonshine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldieMN Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 5 hours ago, fablefire said: I had no idea I could put a hole in the candle. Does the wax adhesion to the wick make a difference? I imagine that if you drill a hole, there will be a little bit of space between the wick and the wax immediately. Or do you use a heat gun after inserting the wick to make sure the wax is right up to the wick? Since you test every new batch of wax, how many candles do you make for each test batch? Do you use a range of wick sizes when testing a new batch of wax or just start with the wick size that worked last time? At what point do you say, "okay, this passes and I can make some for sale now"? Three successful candles? Six? I really want to get a good testing protocol so that I have confidence in my product. Part of why I started making candles is because I got tired of store bought candles fizzling out and not working. I don't want my business to have iffy product too. I haven't really worried about the hole as it fills in while the wick burns. Others with more experience may use a heat gun before burning and will jump in here to correct me. I've settled in on two wicks to test with my pint jars--Premier 770 and CD10s so I test those two for each fragrance. If I notice something not to my liking such as a jar that is too hot or a flame struggling, I will pull the wick and try a different wick but sticking with the Premiers or CDs. So far, I have stuck with the same percentage for all my candles: Approximately 7.%. However with the new boxes of soy wax, I may have to adjust this for a couple of fragrances that I am not getting a hot throw from that I have had great success with in the past. Haven't had time to pinpoint the problem yet. For me if I can smell the candle after a couple hours, I feel I am on the way to success and continue testing that jar to the end. I have to be able to smell the burning candle in a space of two adjoining rooms. Having said that, I use to get a much strong hot throw before these soy problems. Ok, so getting back, if after a couple hours I'm not getting a hot throw, I will continue to burn the candle for the full 4 hours. No hot throw? Pull the wick and insert another to continue the test. Still no hot throw after a total 4-hour burn? I won't bother with it any more unless someone else says they have a great hot throw using 464. Then I may revisit when I have more time. New fragrances, I pour two test candles. Proven old fragrances, I pour one test candle. When I have time to test and enough wax, I try to pour 12 test jars. As I get new boxes of wax, I will test my "line" of candles all over again as well as a few new fragrances. I only have about twelve fragrances in my "line". Can't imagine the nightmare if I had 100 like others on this forum! You have great questions, keep asking! Goldie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellajoan Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I too, use 464 with an 8 oz jar w/ a 2.75 inch diameter and betweeen 6-8% fo. I have found that Premiers work best for us for all but a few fragrances. We generally use 750 or 755 as a starting point, but will wick up if the scent is woodsy or smokey, bakery or vanilla, or musky at all-usually start with a 760 for those. Each candle often requires a few different wicks to see what throws the best. What I like about Premier is that they have a huge range of sizes. With the CDs, sometimes I wanted an "in-between" size and it wasn't available. That being said, it is more costly and takes more time to find the perfect wick for each fo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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