Does Palm Wax Displace Gorillas?

[chevril]

I know, weird title. The thing is, I would have tried palm wax a while ago but I saw stories saying the palm industry was responsible for shoving gorillas out of their habitat and that it was having a devastating effect on them. I ALSO read that was a lie perpetuated by the soy industry who is of course, a competitor. I have no idea what to believe, but I'd love to try palm for melts if I can do it without making gorillas sad ??!  Has anyone here been able to decipher the truth about this? Thanks for any info?

[TallTayl]

Poverty is killing orangutans.

 

People in impoverished countries will plant whatever sells to feed their families. If the demand for palm products were to end abruptly today, would those people stop using the land and just walk away? No. They would plant soy or whatever else sells so they can feed their families.

 

The RSPO (roundtable on sustainable palm oil) has been working toward farming practices and sourcing palm products from areas  where there is no danger to orangutans.

 

ironically, Palm is less bad for the land, and produces far more yield than soybeans per acre. 

 

there is no harmless resource industry ?  Soy farming is killing Americans, American animals, flora and insects at an alarming rate. The voices remain largely unheard because of the powerful soy lobby. 

 

Beeswax and honey are often factory farmed unethically.

[chevril]

6 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Poverty is killing orangutans.

 

People in impoverished countries will plant whatever sells to feed their families. If the demand for palm products were to end abruptly today, would those people stop using the land and just walk away? No. They would plant soy or whatever else sells so they can feed their families.

 

The RSPO (roundtable on sustainable palm oil) has been working toward farming practices and sourcing palm products from areas  where there is no danger to orangutans.

 

ironically, Palm is less bad for the land, and produces far more yield than soybeans per acre. 

 

there is no harmless resource industry ?  Soy farming is killing Americans, American animals, flora and insects at an alarming rate. The voices remain largely unheard because of the powerful soy lobby. 

 

Beeswax and honey are often factory farmed unethically.

 Whoops, I said gorillas instead of orangutans, not the first time I've mixed up the two. Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I'm so glad to know there is an organized effort being made to figure out how to farm palm more humanely. You've convinced me to go ahead and try palm and frankly, I'm relieved. I make soy container candles but I've been longing to try wax that has a greater hot throw for the melts. Now I can. Thanks again! ?

[debratant]

I love animals....maybe more than people to be honest...and unfortunately animals are being forced out of their habitat because

in my opinion, there are too many dang people and buildings and industry and whatnot in the world.  

It's a terrible thing to actually have the thought that the people herd should be thinned out LOL.  Sorry...but sometimes I

feel that way.

 

I see it just in my own neighborhood. We never had groundhogs in our town.  I mean, I'm sure we did, but they lived in the woods and

were rarely seen.  The woods/farms have now been overtaken by industry, strip malls or housing developments.  I see TONS

of groundhogs now, right near my house. I feel bad for the little guys.   It saddens me to see animals basically living/visiting housing developments to eat

and the people who live in those developments get outraged or in a panic if they see a bear in the area, or a deer eats their plants/trees etc. 

 

We even have coyotes now, saw one myself trying to cross the busy Interstate when I was driving to work last year.  People were all

over social media panicking over the coyote sightings. And here I was, worried and wondering and hoping that it made it

across the busy 3 lane highway! 

 

I don't know what people expect?   Sorry, kind of a rant and not really about Palm....but I do feel bad for the orangutan and agree with TT....poverty

and I also think PEOPLE.  Way too many of us!   

 

As a side note, in my house, the feeding order goes like this

 

husband gets his plate, and only because he is the husband lol

the dog (primo) gets his plate

then me....lol

 

 

 

 

[Nickie]

On 7/31/2017 at 5:49 PM, chevril said:

I know, weird title. The thing is, I would have tried palm wax a while ago but I saw stories saying the palm industry was responsible for shoving gorillas out of their habitat and that it was having a devastating effect on them. I ALSO read that was a lie perpetuated by the soy industry who is of course, a competitor. I have no idea what to believe, but I'd love to try palm for melts if I can do it without making gorillas sad ??!  Has anyone here been able to decipher the truth about this? Thanks for any info?

This is an article from Lush Cosmetics. They have removed palm oil from all of their products. This article may be of value in explaining why they have made this decision for their company. Like you, I have some of the same concerns. 

 

http://www.lushusa.com/Stories-Article?cid=article_palm-free-soap-base

 

[Jcandleattic]

Everyone has to do their own research. I tend to agree with TT. Soy is a much bigger threat to nature/wildlife than Palm is. As is paraffin, and other oils/crops. 

 

This is an age old argument that has been going on for years, and articles like the one that was posted are all about the extreme WOW factor and although there are facts in the articles, they miss, or purposely leave out and ignore, many many other facts that would counter their argument, and even out the cons with the pros, etc., 

 

Just like in anything, correct, unbiased research is the key, instead of doing what these WOW factor articles want you to do and follow like lemmings. 

[birdcharm]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:41 AM, chevril said:

 Whoops, I said gorillas instead of orangutans, not the first time I've mixed up the two ...

 

 

Although I had previously seen orangutans at zoos, I first learned about their plight from a magazine and then learned more on the Internet.  The passion of Dr. Mary Galdikas is what really caught my attention.  I'd like to share at least one page about her and anyone with an interest can take it from there:  Orangutans & Dr. Birute Mary Galdikas

 

This is Dr. Mary's Twitter Page

 

For myself, if I were to try palm oil, I would make sure it was at least from a sustainable source and I would make sure that was on my label. 

 

Although, the sustainable farms were once rainforests full of trees, rare orchids, birds, butterflies and other wonderful things and are now monocultures without any diversity or life with the exception of palm trees, at least the products from those plantations are from working plantations that did not partake in further habitat destruction.

 

 

[Nickie]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:57 AM, Jcandleattic said:

Everyone has to do their own research. I tend to agree with TT. Soy is a much bigger threat to nature/wildlife than Palm is. As is paraffin, and other oils/crops. 

 

This is an age old argument that has been going on for years, and articles like the one that was posted are all about the extreme WOW factor and although there are facts in the articles, they miss, or purposely leave out and ignore, many many other facts that would counter their argument, and even out the cons with the pros, etc., 

 

Just like in anything, correct, unbiased research is the key, instead of doing what these WOW factor articles want you to do and follow like lemmings. 

At the time of posting, I clearly stated my reason for posting, as any half-educated person can see the shock factor in this article. I suggested it as information sharing only, as to why Lush made the decision they made for THEIR company. Yes, Lush has a flair for drama, but they have also done the research as to what is right for their company. In essence and since this may make been missed, my point in sharing was to suggest that all companies have different reasons for the direction and paths they take and it's important to find your own way as a business.  I think it's goes unsaid that people should form their own opinions through well executed research and likely hearing out both sides (extreme or not) Is part of that. 

 

 

[cindym]

Harvesting palm oil is a huge issue for  many reasons.  It is important to do  some research before purchasing palm oil and foods made with palm oil.  I don't use palm in any of my soaping products anymore because of the way it impacts the environment , animals, and health.  There are some vids on you tube that you can watch on the Lueser Ecosystem in Asia that gives a good snap shot of what happens when we harvest palm oil forests. There is an industry now growing conflict free palm oil and it's a responsibility I think, if we want a healthy world for our children and grand children that we demand industries keep our enviornment healthy.  Once a palm oil forest is cut it is then burned to the ground which releases tons of carbon into the air that we breath.  It's real , it's happening and it's scary as hell. The impact it is having on orangatans and all animals is heart breaking and very very real.

Edited August 6, 2017 by cindym

[pcbrook]

2 hours ago, cindym said:

 Once a palm oil forest is cut it is then burned to the ground which releases tons of carbon into the air that we breath.  

1

 

Can you explain this more for me?  I thought palm wax came from the fruit of the trees.  Why are the trees cut and burned?

[cindym]

33 minutes ago, pcbrook said:

 

Can you explain this more for me?  I thought palm wax came from the fruit of the trees.  Why are the trees cut and burned?

Hi pcbrook,  I am specifically talking about palm oil.  Sorry if I got off track.  Palm wax is made from palm oil.  The forests are being cut down and burned to provide cleared land for palm trees.  The entire rain forest and habitat for the wild animals is being destroyed to produce palm oil.

Edited August 6, 2017 by cindym

[Nickie]

6 hours ago, cindym said:

Hi pcbrook,  I am specifically talking about palm oil.  Sorry if I got off track.  Palm wax is made from palm oil.  The forests are being cut down and burned to provide cleared land for palm trees.  The entire rain forest and habitat for the wild animals is being destroyed to produce palm oil.

This is very true, as confirmed by my reserach too. The photos of the deforestation and displacement are devastating to see, confirming what is really going on half-a-world away.  It's so easy to turn a blind eye to what WE are all doing, but we can personally and professionally make our choice heard by the way in which we decide to spend our money. 

[TallTayl]

We can all debate this until the cows come home.

 

There is not one commercially created product that is greener or less devastating than any of the others. We are just conditioned to seeing what happens in our own backyard and think nothing of it anymore.

 

I live in farm country and witness firsthand every day the water, the animals, and even the humans that suffer and die for commercial soybeans.  I have lost too many  friends to cancer related to soybean production to count.

[birdcharm]

4 hours ago, TallTayl said:

We can all debate this until the cows come home.

 

There is not one commercially created product that is greener or less devastating than any of the others. We are just conditioned to seeing what happens in our own backyard and think nothing of it anymore.

 

I live in farm country and witness firsthand every day the water, the animals, and even the humans that suffer and die for commercial soybeans.  I have lost too many  friends to cancer related to soybean production to count.

 

 

I agree that our soybean production is a serious issue in regard to the chemicals that are being used.  Yet, I disagree that it could be considered an equal in regard to the palm industry.  Beyond the devastation, the peat fires alone have caused environmental damage that reaches the entire globe.  The environmental and global impact from what is happening in Indonesia, by far, imo, is worse than soybean production.

 

 

[TallTayl]

 Think beyond just soy bean farming. Any monoculture is devastating to the land. And then add on CAFOs and we will again compare. Intensive cow farming and pig farming and chicken farming... we just don't notice it unless we live near it (and I do).  It is all greenwashed with pretty packaging and expensive lobbying. 

 

acre for acre palm is much more efficient and productive than soy.  They get several harvests per year whereas soy gets one. If palm were to be replaced with soy (or any other American grain crop) in those areas the devastation would be an order of magnitude or three bigger. Let's not kid ourselves. 

 

All in all, paraffin as a byproduct of the petrol industry is less devastating to the earth if you really want to split hairs. 

[birdcharm]

43 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

All in all, paraffin as a byproduct of the petrol industry is less devastating to the earth if you really want to split hairs. 

 

 

With all the recent news about Monsanto I've been reading, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that unless I make beeswax or coconut wax candles, I'm going to turn back to my gel candles I so loved to make; a reduced usage of straight soy; and also get back to using more paraffin.  The stories I've been seeing about some of this year's soy crops aren't too good.

 

 

[Nickie]

On 8/6/2017 at 11:21 PM, birdcharm said:

 

 

With all the recent news about Monsanto I've been reading, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that unless I make beeswax or coconut wax candles, I'm going to turn back to my gel candles I so loved to make; a reduced usage of straight soy; and also get back to using more paraffin.  The stories I've been seeing about some of this year's soy crops aren't too good.

 

 

Montano is evil. Pure evil. They lie, cheat, steal, and even kill, on many different levels. It just doesn't get worse than who they are, what they are doing. Well maybe the only thing that is worse is they know exactly what they are doing and don't care.  

[Nickie]

On 8/6/2017 at 10:37 PM, TallTayl said:

All in all, paraffin as a byproduct of the petrol industry is less devastating to the earth if you really want to split hairs. 

I do 10000% agree with this. 

[lenarenee]

 

Keep in mind that when indigenous habitat is destroyed - the entire ecosystem is affected.  Many palm plantations are on islands. The root systems of those forests support the structure and integrity of the landscape and island itself. They have monsoon. Entire villages are swept away because they're now surrounded by palm trees which simply can't provide the stability needed. The populations of animals and insects shift;  predator and prey ratios shift. insects and pollination changes, let alone just the changes in the basic food change.

 

Thailand, Malaysai, etc.; they could be "saved" if people would let it.

 

Right now, there are volunteer scientists and environmental experts who are willing to work with Thailand and other countries to set up farming habits while preserving nature ecosystems.  They aren't getting  much financial support, as you can imagine.

 

Those rainforest habitats could be partially preserved, while developing some farm land.  Surely not a perfect balance, but way better than the direction they're headed now.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by lenarenee