4630 vs 6006

[wthomas57]

Hey everyone,

 

Was curious if there was a general consensus which had a better HT out of 6006 and 4360?

Also, any thoughts to which is easier to wick or seems to burn better?

 

thanks

[bfroberts]

I've used both, quite a bit.  All in all, 4630 is easier to work with, in my experience.  It is a dream to pour, doesn't require much of a cure time, and I found wicking to be a breeze in all my containers.  That said, I gave it up to use 6006.  I find pouring 6006 more challenging, it requires a longer cure time, and it's a pain to wick in some of my containers.  I chose to give up the 4630 and run with 6006 mainly because I get a bit longer burn time out of it, and I prefer the burn of the zinc wicks I use in 6006 to the HTP's I was using in 4630.  All in all, I feel like the *successful* candles I am able to make with 6006 are superior to the *successful* candles I can make with 4630.  However, it's harder to get those successful candles out of 6006.  I have to work harder for them.  I have to heat my jars and keep them insulated, something I never had to do with 4630.  I have to cure for at least a week, sometimes 2 weeks or longer to get the optimal throw.  And some of my containers (apothecaries) just cannot seem to be wicked with some FO's.  But at the end of the day, 6006 has given me some candles that are as close to perfect as a candle can be. 

I don't think one necessarily has a better HT than the other.  Some FOs perform better in one than the other, but I think that could be said for most any waxes when compared side by side.  I don't find that many FO's that do not throw in 6006.  A few, but not too many.  Some that were great in 4630 are lackluster in 6006, but the reverse is also true, so I don't really consider that to be a factor for or against either wax. 
 

 

[wthomas57]

Thanks for the detailed info.

 

I  mostly use 6006 now, part of what has annoyed me was the extra cure time and its pour sensitivity.

I mean, its not as bad as some other waxes, but like you said... it could be better with 4630.

6006 has good HT for me, but having to wait to get it can be a bit frustrating, especially for testing purposes.

 

Regarding the wicking... I am torn here. I actually thought you were gonna tell me you used zincs in the 4630 as well. I have some issues with wicking 6006 sometimes especially in larger containers (apothecary). That is partially why I would like try 4630. Although I figured the zincs would work with it, but perhaps Ill try the HTP if you had success with them. My 6006 works great in masons, descent in tumblers but not good at all in larger jars and I am hoping 4630 could help with that. I thought about blending the two but not sure it would get me any kind of benefit and just be a silly thing to do. 

 

My biggest concern is trying to cut down on mushrooming from using the zincs in 6006. I guess it just bothers me more than it does everyone else so its always an itch I keep trying to scratch.

 

I have found a handful of FOs that dont' throw great for mein 6006 but I imagine Id find that with any wax. 

I'm curious what you liked better about the burn of the zincs in 6006 over the HTPs in the 4630?

 

Oh, and regarding burn time. I was thinking about this too. Ive never done this myself, but what about blending in a little of a harder pillar wax with the 4630 to try and increase the burn time. I realize this could mean wicking up a size or even possibly a wick change, I dont know. Like I said, never done it. But sounds like it may work in theory. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by wthomas57

[bfroberts]

I stumbled into 6006 trying to use up some I had on hand from a long time ago.  I poured a candle based on recommendation and it was so great I just ran with it.  I've only used it extensively for about a year, so I'm not extremely knowledgeable.

 

When I started with 4630, HTP's were what was recommended by the supplier, and they did work well, so that's what I used. They are a self trimming wick, and I just don't really like the way those kind of wicks work in smaller containers.  The curling of the wick creates an off center MP which is harder to deal with in smaller containers.  In all fairness, I didn't try all wick types, although I did try several.  There may be something better.  I poured, burned, and sold a whole lot of those candles, and they were great candles, but I just wasn't 100% satisfied.
 

I don't think you have to settle for mushrooms with zinc wicks.  My very best candles using 6006/zincs have no mushrooming whatsoever, and when I blow them out, all that's left on the wick is a little bit of ash sticking up.  No mushroom at all.  It's a beautiful thing to behold...lol.  Unfortunately, it takes the right combo and alignment of the planets for that to happen.  If an FO produces massive mushrooming, I just ditch it.  As far as I'm concerned, anything other than tiny mushrooming is as unacceptable as no HT.  I like a very clean burning candle, and I can get that with 6006 & zincs. It just takes a lot of trial and error to find the right FO's.

 

I can't single wick the apothecaries with 6006.  I can get a decent MP but not without massive mushrooms and soot.  I can double wick and get a perfect burn, and that's what I do.  It isn't ideal, but it is what it is.  Because of that, I am phasing out the apothecary jars and going with another jar type that is easier to wick.  I have massive respect for people that can wick Pumpkin Souffle and Blueberry Cobbler in 6006.  I can't, so instead, I do Pumpkin Pecan Waffles and Strawberry Cheesecake. Those I can do perfectly!
 

I've never tried blending any waxes for candles.  To me, that just complicates things.  I don't mind the extra work I have to put into 6006, but I do like to keep things streamlined.  One wax, one wick type, etc.  

 

I think I tackle candle making differently than most people.  I am a chandler of opportunity rather than a chandler of knowledge....LOL.  Rather than trying to figure out how to make something work, I find what works and just do that

[wthomas57]

Thanks again for following up. Your philosophy and mindset for candle making is pretty in line without how I've always been. K.I.S.S philosophy ya know? ha

That being said, I've been getting a little irritated at what I can do with 6006 without issues like mushrooming. I totally get what you are saying about sticking with the FO's that perform well with little or no mushroom.... but unfortunately that doesn't leave a lot, lol. I know a lot of people who use 6006 and use zinc and all I hear is mushrooming is normal with those and you just gotta accept it. So I am curious how you been able to keep the mushroom down so much or do you just use a very small select few FOs? What % FO do you typically use if you don't mind me asking?

 

I am still gonna give 4630 a shot and see how it goes. I completely agree with you on the uneven burning from self trimming wicks. Its entire reason I dont use CD's. But no mushroom, so its definitely a give and take ya know. One thing that has always concerned me about zincs is customer perception. I've had customer think they were lead wicks. I mean, its no big deal once you explain they aren't and that lead wicks are illegal.. but how often do you get to educate each customer on that? It's rare. So, customers choosing another candle simply because they see metal in our wicks is a concern to me.

 

Funny that you mention pumpkin souffle... its definitely a challenge! Works great in my masons.... but after trying to get it to work in Tumblers, it makes me want to quit making candles. haha

 

I've also never tried blending waxes for candles, so it would be a new venture for me. But since most of the best candles out there are custom blends whether it be buy small candle makers or the big boys, I figured it was worth a shot. So, I MAY try 4630/6006 or 4630 and a pillar blend. We'll see. 

 

Regarding the apothecarys. I am working with those too and could not be more hit or miss. Mostly miss.

I can do a cranberry marmalade with a zinc 62 and works pretty darn well. But most others I cant get a complete MP.

You mentioned double wicking those. Could you remind me which double wicks worked well for you. I think you told me before that it was 2 44-24s?

I've tried 44-24. 44-28, 44-32 to this point starting with the biggest. But even the smallest made a complete MP in less than 30 minutes and my jar became incredibly too hot!

I haven't tried 36s or lower yet, so maybe I will. You said you were able to double wick those successfully, so just thought Id ask again about it before I give up.

 

Finally, would you mind sharing what other big jars you are moving to for a better burn instead of the apothecarys? I went with those simply because I didn't really many many other options. 

 

Thanks again!

[bfroberts]

For double wicking the apothecaries, I use 36z's for all but a couple of FO's.  I place the tabs about 5mm apart.  This combo creates an excellent candle.  FO's I can think of off the top of my head that required larger wicks were Cinnamon Broom (Tennessee) and Santa's Pipe (WSP), but it's rare that I have to wick up.  This is an area where a longer cure really helps.  For example, initially I thought I was under-wicked with 2 36z's using This Old House FO.  That same candle was a fail after 3-4 days but ended up being absolutely perfect after 2-3 weeks.  I use liquid dye also, but I don't really find that to make much difference.  The difference is all in the FO and the cure time. 

 

I don't think you have to accept the mushrooms, but if you don't, you have to accept that it's harder to find FOs. It's a trade off, like most everything in candle making.  Just depends on what you are looking for.  Get some 36z's and I think you'll be very encouraged.  I'll be happy to give you a list of FO's that work well for me in this combo.  It is definitely harder to find FO's that don't cause mushrooming, but creating that perfect candle is worth the search.  The cure time is a bummer, so I just pour something new all the time.  That way I always have something new to test burn. 

I am so over using big jars except for my personal use.  I'm only using status jars and 8 and 16oz masons.  Anything larger than 16oz moves slowly anyway, and I don't think anyone will miss the apothecaries.  For mason jars, I use mostly 44-24's.  For status jars, I use mostly 52z's.  I also do a line of wood wick candles in the status jars.  The medium wood wicks are nice in those, but that's a whole other set of headaches and challenges.

 

[wthomas57]

Thanks again

I haven't found descent wood wicks. Where do you get yours? 

 

I didn't plan on doing big apothecarys but I was getting asked for those more than everything else. The largest I did was either 16oz mason

or 11.5oz tumbler. Was constantly getting asked for larger sizes.

 

You said you use z51 in status? Status is about the same as a tumbler, identical I thought really. I have to use z60 in almost eveyrthing. What FO % are you using?

 

Regarding cure time... do you find that longer cure sometimes leads to needing larger wick or smaller? I would imagine larger, but if I read correctly in your example above you thought you were underwicked and it ended up perfect?

 

I swore I ordered 36z somewhere but maybe not as I cant find a record of them.Ill do some more digging.

Thanks

 

[bfroberts]

I use 6-7% generally.  I lean toward 6% for anything heavy.  

 

I would have thought a longer cure would need a larger wick also, but I am finding just the opposite with this wax.  Over and over it's proven.  Remarkable, really.  I can't tell you how many candles I put to the side thinking they were under wicked only to revisit them later and find they were perfect.  So I learned a valuable lesson there.

 

Status and tumbler should wick about the same.  I cannot imagine a 60z in one of my status jars.  What types of FOs are you using?  How long do you cure?

 

No one wants my bigger candles.  I think it's probably more that they don't want the bigger price!  Most of mine are sold to men who are buying them as souvenirs for their wives.  My market is not the norm for a candlemaker, to say the least.

 

I am using wood wicks from The Flaming Candle.  I haven't had any problem with the quality and they seem to be consistent, unlike some others I've tried.  

 

[wthomas57]

i haven't tried wood wicks from flaming candle yet, i may give them a go.

 

I typically use 8%, perhaps why a tad more mushrooming... but only two people I know who dont use 8% in this wax and you are one of them. Maybe that is the key. Ha!

You still find good HT with 6%? I had heard from many they did not, which is why I chose 8%. I have used some that are not even all that strong at even 8% so Id imagine much worse at 6%.

 

I am using all sorts of FOs. Some for production, some for testing. I have apple scents, vanilla scents, floral scents, bakery scents. the works really.

Apple Harvest is an example of one that isn't that strong without using 8 or 9%. Same with Harvest type from NG.

Mostly though, 8% gives me great results. Perhaps, cutting back woudl cut down on the mushroom though?

 

I also do cure for at least a week or two before selling. But often test within a few days. 

I wish the larger jars were not of concern... but its my most requested. I think its because the value is better even though its more money. 

I dont mind that, because my profit margin is better as well than on smaller items. But still... its a pain in the rear end getting those going successfully.

[wthomas57]

I should mention though... as my jars have increased, my FO% usually goes down a bit since the melt pool is larger and I get better HT. So while I say I use 8% that is usually for masons and tumblers. Anythign better, I dropped to 6 or so.

[bfroberts]

I'm cheap, and if it doesn't work at 6-7%, I don't usually use it.  I have had a couple of exceptions, but it is rare.   More FO can most definitely mean more mushrooming, but it's just one factor.  I can get a great throw at 6-7% using a lot of FO's.  To get a great throw with no mushrooming is a lot more challenging, but it can be done.  I'd rather have a small line of candles that throw well and have no mushrooms than to have a large line of candles that throw well but get big mushrooms. 

 

Do you have MacApple from CS?  If so, get some 36's, and try double wicking an apothecary using 6-7% FO, cure it 2 weeks, and see how it burns.  Also, I think you could use 51's in your tumblers.  Apple Harvest should do well at 6-7% with a 51z after a 2 week cure.  Of course, they always say what works for one person may not work for another, but I've got a hunch....

[bfroberts]

If you want to give it a whirl without an investment, I'd be happy to send you a few wicks to try.

[wthomas57]

I do have MacApple from CS. Its a good one

Ill give it a go in the apothecary.

 

For my tumblers, I really thought z51s would be best so I started with them but most end up tunneling. Some recover eventually, most don't.

60s been working pretty well. I do a lot of testing with another guy on 6006 and so far I think he has had similar results. But again, we both using 8%

 

I'm not really "big" enough to plan for weeks out so many candles I have to make on demand and having them wait 1-2 weeks just isn't going to work unfortunately.

[wthomas57]

1 minute ago, bfroberts said:

If you want to give it a whirl without an investment, I'd be happy to send you a few wicks to try.

 

Its ok... I probably need to get a pack anyway. Ill use them sometime. I appreciate the offer though. I mean, its up to you, but really not necessary.

 

Did you ever try Premier's?  Since you order from Flaming Candle, I am assume you might have. 

They seem to behave similar to zinc. But I am getting you ddin't like them as much for one reason or another.

 

[bfroberts]

I did try Premiers on my first (and aborted) try at 6006.  I didn't like them, but I don't remember why.  Honestly, when I threw together my first great 6006 candle....it was Buttercream (Tennessee), double wicked with 36z's, from that point I never looked back.

 

If you can't deal with a cure time, 4630 might be just the thing.  I'd love to hear your results.

[wthomas57]

it should be arriving any day now.. ill let ya know what I think.

thank you

[wthomas57]

ever tried double wicking tumblers? I never have, and know it may not be necessary, but Ive seen them done that way.

wouldnt know where to start. Probably a couple 36z

[bfroberts]

No, never have.  I'm pretty sure it would be too much.  I'd start with 51 or 44-32, depending on the FO.
 

[wthomas57]

Hey @bfroberts, been a while and forgot about this thread. I kept on using 6006 as I have been and didn't really mess with the 4630 much. For one basic reason.... more black smoke than I am confortable with. Did you notice this with 4630 as well? I mean.. its all parrafin so I guess its expected to have more than a soy blend.

 

That being said... sometimes I get mote black smoke/soot than I want with 6006 as well (being mostly parrafin).

Are you still exclusively using 6006? What have you done to combat smoke or soot if anything? Its not horrible or anything... but its something always trying to improve.

 

The biggest thing Id like to improve is glass adhesion. Its ok.. but not great. I can get them perfect, but eventually once they hit shelves or leave my storage they will arrive at some point anyway. But I hear that isn't the case with 4630. So I thought about adding 4630 to it (which would lower melt point and get better glass adhesion). The issue is that 1) this makes the candle almost entirely parrfin and not so much a parasoy anymore and 2) more soot.

 

Thoughts?

[bfroberts]

Ha.  It's funny you should mention it. 

 

We always take the winter off, so I didn't mess with wax for several months,  Now here I am back in the candle shop, and as usual, I am no longer happy with my product.  My issue isn't soot with either of those waxes.  I wick cooler than a lot of people do and I don't fiddle around with problem fragrances, so that eliminates the soot issue for the most part. 

 

My issue is the darn air pockets/holes/whatever you call them that I get with 6006 when I pour into any container that is taller than it is wide.  I cannot prevent them consistently enough to be happy, and believe me, I have tried.  Wet spots annoy me too, but not as much as the holes.

 

So, I drug out some trusty 4630, poured a couple of those w/HTP's, and was reminded why I stopped using that combo.  Those wicks do well, but the off center MP offends my OCD.  That's when I had the light bulb moment and decided to blend the two waxes.  

I did a 50/50 blend with Oakmoss & Amber (CS) and a 44-32z wick in a 9oz straight sided jar.  I did not heat my jars but I did cover with a towel.  I did get a wet spot, but I did not get any holes.  I cured for 1 day, which was part of the experiment, because a reduced cure time would be a big bonus, would it not? 

 

 

That candle is burning well at the halfway point.  I am interested to see if a longer cure time changes the burn.  It usually does with 6006, but not so much with 4630, so I'm really thinking this particular candle is a winner.  I may try other wick types to see if I can calm the dancing flame a bit, or maybe I won't even bother.

 

If I had to say, for my applications (4630 & 6006), the soot is in the wicking much more so than the wax.  Any wax that I put a CD wick in soots like a steam engine. Any wax that I wick to get a FMP within the 1st or 2nd burn will usually produce soot.  So I wick cooler, and in the long run, I feel like I get a safe, long lasting, clean burning candle.  What I don't get is a major room-filling throw within 15 minutes.  It takes longer for my candles to throw, but the overall product appears to be superior to what I can make that does scent a room within 15 minutes.  I know other people have different objectives, and I respect that. 

 

In short, so far I like the 4630/6006 combo, and it seems promising enough to move forward with more testing.  You should give it a whirl, and please let me know what you think.
 

 

 

[bfroberts]

One other thing @wthomas57...

 

I just pulled another tester I poured with 50/50 4630 & 6006.  I just poured this one yesterday.  This one was poured into a heated jar and cooled in one of my wooden soap molds (which is one of my weird ways of slowing down the cooling process) and it has no wet spots and none of those pesky holes.  I know two possible successes doesn't mean a lot, but it is promising.  I've just lit the 2nd candle.  It's Apple Maple Bourbon (CS) and I wicked it with 51z.  We'll see what the burn is like with this one.

[Tammy.D]

I blend the 6006 with the Golden soy blend 464. I usually get a good HT but drawback is I also get alot of frosting. Looking for other blends that might eliminate that problem.

[wthomas57]

@bfroberts   Thanks for the update. And I find it utterly amusing how similar we must think and work. Over the weekend before I was able to get back on here and respond... I had the same though and poured a blend of 6006(70%) and 4630(30%) because I had the same thoughts. I will say so far zero sink holes and cracks (which I never get anyway with any waxes (due to my curing process). Obviously using many parrafings will have shrinkage and need 2nd pours, but not referring to that.

 

Anyway, I haven't done any burn tests yet but plan to today and will update you.

I also poured a blend of 6006 and 464 as well and curious how it will work. The positive of that blend is a bit cleaner with more soy. All the other benefits are with the 6006/4630 blend.

 

I actually plan to pour 2 different blends. 1) 6006/4630 at 70/30 ratio as I already have done. 2) same blend with 50/50 ratio as you have done.

So let's keep our fingers crossed.

 

I also agree the smoke/soot is usually from wick more than wax. That being said, I can wick 464 with damn near anything and get no soot. Parrafin I get soot unles wicking is PERFECT. Speaking of perfect... this is a bit off topic and in reference to conversation we had a while back about double wicking the apothecary jars. Wicking these jars is a nightmare and double wicking has been much better. However, Either the wicks end up too big or hot or too small and drown/almost drown. You mentioned using (2) zinc 36-xx.

In all my testing that combo has drowned or essentialy drowned. In fact, same with 44-24. I got good results with 44-28 and 44-32 though although a bit bigger and hotter than I'd like. Was curious if you had more feedback on double wicking those damn things. 

 

Finally.... any issues you have had with the large jars losing scent after a few long burns. Never happens to any jars for me except testing the large apothecarys.

 

Thanks

 

@Tammy.D  I have blended with 464 as well and other than slightly cleaner burn and softening up the 6006 a bit... haven't really seen a big reason to do that combo vs just 6006 or 6006/4630.  (FYI, 4630 will also lower the melt point of 6006 a bit too)

[bfroberts]

We do seem to be following a parallel path through this endeavor, don't we?  I've thought that myself.

Apothecaries.  I'm not doing them this year, but yes, I wicked most with 36z's.  I only had a few scents that required 44-24's.  If it was an FO that wouldn't burn well with 44-24's I just ditched it altogether.  I have a pretty long list somewhere of FO's that were perfection with 2 36z's..  Of the top of my head, I know Mac Apple, Clean Cotton, Jamaica Me Crazy, Pomegranate, Pink Magnolia, Grapefruit Mangosteen, Pineapple Sage (all from CS) were all excellent with 36z's,  Those double wicked apoth's were probably the best line of candles I've ever made.  Scents that just wouldn't work with any combo were Pumpkin Souffle and Blueberry Cobbler (CS). They were horrid.  Either they drowned or they torched. I never could find an in-between.  However, I was using dye, and a good bit of it for dark color which may or may not have had an effect.  This year, I've stopped using dye at all, so I will have to retest if I resurrect that jar.

 

I have a hunch that with the 4630/6006 blend it may be possible to single wick those apothecaries.  I will certainly be trying it, if only for fun. 

 

I haven't really experienced a loss of scent with any of my containers that I've noticed.  We do power burns all day every day in the store and they carry scent until the bitter end.   I don't do any containers larger than 16 oz, so I don't know what would happen in a larger jar.  I would think over wicking would be the culpret, or maybe just using a hotter wick than zinc.  Not sure.

 

Please keep me updated on your tests.  Besides being over-wicked, I am ecstatically happy with my two testers so far.  The pouring characteristic of this blend has sold me.  I don't think the wicking will be difficult at all.  I'm down two wick sized from what I started with, but that doesn't surprise me.  I'm pouring more to test as we speak.

[wthomas57]

Thanks for the update.

 

I realized after reading your post that my recent testing in the large apothecarys wasn't with 6006 (oopse, forgot to mention that). Yes, double wicking with 44-24s did me fine with 6006. The problem I had is the people who liked the larger jars were also the people who preffered the mottled (yankee look) over the solid creamy. And I totally get that.. the mottled look can be pretty awesome. So my testing was with 2530 mottling wax. Being all parrafin you would think one wick would cut it.... and perhaps with enough testing it would. However I had an EXCELLT double wicked one going but the scent faded after a couple long burns. Here was the cool thing. I got it completely self trim and never had to trim the wicks. Ever. I burned for 18 hours straight... flame size never changed, dind't have to trim. Relit and did it again. Its pretty amazing having a candle perform like that. But again... (and perhaps because I need more work with this wax...) but it lost scent eventually. Never had that happen.

 

 

And yes blueberry cobbler and pumpkin souffle is a hard burn almost all the time anyway. I can get it to burn well in my 8oz and 16oz masons, but thats it so far. 

 

I am at a struggling point because Id like to do away with the zinc wicks purely to eliminate the wire. I have people who dont like it, wonder what it is, or assume its lead. Dumb.

But... I like the cooler burning and that seems to make the candle and the throw last longer.