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Relief holes


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Hey guys'n'gals. Back onto the 464 testing today and decided Togo down the route of relief holes to try reduce those air pockets.

Its exceptionally cold here and I dont have the ability to use an oven to ease the cooling.

Ipoured the 464 blend and waited till the top and sides were white, then I poked 4 or 5 chopstick size holes around the wick area.

Is that what we are all calling relief holes? Ive gone all the way from the top to the bottom and a bit of liquid wax popped out of the tip of the hole.

Now what happens? Do I go along in a couple of days and pour over the top and hope the hot wax is hit enough to get into all those holes and fill them all up again?

Dumb question I know, but I just dont see the wax getting into all the holes and doing what it's meant to.

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So just an update.  I got impatient and decided to go and heat gun the tops and holes, and then decided I think they are going to be terrible and threw them all out.................

 

I am pouring 18oz jelly jars.  Can I solve this problem by doing two fills?  Half fill, then finish filling?

 

and if so, do I wait till the first layer has set before I pour the second?

 

I'm really not enjoying this soy experience, but I am determined to defeat it 8-)

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Crvella, actually you didn't have to throw them away.  They were fine.  When you pour your candles, just pour them to almost where you would stop and let them cool down.  When you pour, pour slowly so to eliminate the possible bubbles that might occur.  After they have cooled, heat up the wax again and just pour a very light layer on top and that should work.  Most of the time for me, I just wait till the next morning and heat up the little left over wax I saved and pour over the top.  When I wait till the next morning my heated wax is pretty much almost the temperature of what I poured initially as that when I poured the candle.  Now I use 464 and pretty much I don't even have to do a 2'nd pour because if I pour my candles between 140 and 150 they come out smooth like glass.  I wouldn't pour 1/2 now and 1/2 later though.

 

Trappeur

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Guest OldGlory

I don't get sink holes in soy either. I get them in 6006 but only in narrow neck jars.

But that doesn't mean you don't!

I would wait until the sides have set up (turned white), pour a bit more wax and then immediately use your chopstick to poke a bunch of holes while the new wax on top is still completely liquid. Go slowly with the stick to avoid the pop. See if that helps.

You can use an inverted cardboard box (placed over the candles) to slow the cooling - cover the box with towels or blankets if you need to.

Let us know if that helps!

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I don't get sink holes in soy either. I get them in 6006 but only in narrow neck jars.

But that doesn't mean you don't!

I would wait until the sides have set up (turned white), pour a bit more wax and then immediately use your chopstick to poke a bunch of holes while the new wax on top is still completely liquid. Go slowly with the stick to avoid the pop. See if that helps.

You can use an inverted cardboard box (placed over the candles) to slow the cooling - cover the box with towels or blankets if you need to.

Let us know if that helps!

I sometimes think oz gets different wax to the US. I have put a wool blanket over them, but the tops just sink, and you know the damn worms have had a crack at the wax! Its almost no escaping it. (Damn winter!)

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Guest OldGlory

Now, to me, sink holes are different than a slightly sunken top. Most waxes will contract a bit. Can you post a picture of what you are referring to?

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Here is a photo of one example.

 

I ran my finger over the top of the candle, applying a little pressure, and here my finger sunk into the candle and hence the massive hole.

 

These make the wick tunnel down and put itself out, on the first light.

 

Is this what we call sink holes?

post-14685-0-10293500-1433018702_thumb.j

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Guest OldGlory

That is not what I call a sink hole, but there's nothing out there saying I'm right and you're wrong. So, the picture is good! It tells us exactly what is going on.

How hot are you pouring your wax?

EDITED

I read back and saw that you pour at 160. That's way too hot and I think that's the biggest problem. Try pouring around 120, save a little wax so you can top off the candle the next day (these are 4 or 5" deep, right?) Let them sit overnight so they are fully set. I think the top will be rough, but not DEEP. If you top off with 1/3" I think you will be fine.

Edited by OldGlory
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I'm pouring about 155 - 165.

 

Here is a photo of what happens when I burn them.  Not sure if you can see it very well, but to the bottom right of the flame you can see a dark patch.  That is a hole that the melt pool 'fell' into once lit, and if it's bad enough the wick will go half way down the jar and then put itself out.

post-14685-0-40169200-1433021832_thumb.j

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Guest OldGlory

If glass adhesion is your goal, and you don't get it pouring cooler, I guess I can't help you. The craters are caused by pouring too hot.

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haha got it.  so the holes appear because of the cooling process, but i'm guessing also due to the depth of the candle?

 

So if I were to go down the route of pouring half, then half, to try prevent such a large differential of heat..... how would one go about doing a 50/50 pour.  Do I wait till the next day and simply pour over the top, or do I wait maybe 2-3 hours and then pour the second lot?

 

I've never had this issue with paraffin, I simply top up or heat gun like you say.

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Guest OldGlory

I think the problem is temperature but it's exacerbated by depth.

I am finally getting a grip on a new tart wax, 416, I'm trying. I have poured over 500 of these tarts and just the last half dozen are where I want to be as far as getting happy with a finished product. They are 1" deep, and I get that cratering effect when I pour over 130. The mfg suggests pouring at 140-150. Sorry, that doesn't work at all. They are seriously bad when I pour at 140 and they are only 1" deep. Maybe in the smaller clamshell that temp would be ok, but I have a hunch this mfg doesn't do clamshell testing.

So, I have to pour twice. First time around 120-125, second time around 130. I found this out by pouring 500 of them, lol.

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Guest OldGlory

I suggest waiting until the next day. My 1" deep clamshell melts are fully cooled within a few hours. Your candles won't fully cool until the next day probably.

EDITED

Actually 416 is very much like 464, just a bit stiffer. Both are 100% soy waxes.

Edited by OldGlory
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I do call them sink holes, and poking relief holes will help eliminate that, but yes, OG is right, IMO you are pouring way too hot which is more of what is causing them, than anything else. If you pour cooler, even if they cool fast you won't get them near as badly if at all. The only time I get sink holes like this is when I'm pouring pillars and with those you have to poke relief holes anyway, so there's that. I've never had to poke relief holes in my container candles, not even my soy candles that I've just recently started making. 

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Oh yeah.....I'd call them craters! lol

 

I agree with what the girls said.  Another thing you could also do which I do in the winter when it's cold in my house is sit the jars on some thick placemats not on a cold counter.  That helps me.  Also I never poke relief holes in any of my candles, ever.  Actually I once in a while get those crater/sink holes or whatever you want to call them, lol and even when they look like your photos, well the next day I do my over pour but very slowly right into the sink hole till it fills up and still continue to pour ever so slowly to get that whole pour done and it works for me.  Now if you are doing the over pour and have completed it, you might see bubbles starting to pop up here and there (I hate that when that happens).  Now do what Old Glory said and just start poking little relief holes right into the wet wax and they should stop.  Geesh sometimes they don't....lol  There have been some times I've even had to do a 3'rd pour....but it very rarely happens.  All waxes have their little idiosincreses (sh.....t) I know for sure I spelled that word wrong!  Everyone has to experiment and test, test,test till they find what works for them and it might not work for the other person.  It's trial and error.  There was many a time for me with getting candles that looked like yours and I would get so friggin disgusted and would get my hair blower out and and just melt the entire top  down to the sink hole and that always worked for and just let it sit till it hardened.  It would be a very grainy top but the over pour just went on beautiful if you know what I mean.   Try not to get too disgusted and give up.  464 was is a beautiful wax to work with.  You just have to figure out the correct pouring temperature and then you will have it.  It WILL come together, believe me....just persistance.  When you get it figured out, it will be like winning the lotto!

 

Trappeur

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Look up threads about cavitation on this forum. It happens with many waxes.

I call them air pockets or cavities. I use soy and don't have the time or space to heat containers, fiddle with pour temps and such, so i pour warmer than most to the full height of the container. Pouring in two stages, like half way then the other half later, won't stop the cavities. Plus if using glass, you may get slight color variations at the pour line and even frosting quicker than in one pour.

I have poured at all different temps from hot to slushy to try to prevent air pockets/cavities. Pouring my blend(C3) at or just before slushy still made cavities.

So.... For containers I pour to the final height of the candle, let it cool at least until the sides and top are set. Poke several relief holes,focusing on the wick area. Some molten liquid does come up through the holes when i poke if working quickly. I let them set the rest of the way, poke a few more for good measure and pour the finish layer filling the holes and leaving a pretty top.

Sometimes, depending on timing and what else is going on, i wait until the first pour is completely set and poke holes then do the second pour.

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